PFT: Tomase taking Red Sox beat, Guregian #2 on Pats beat

[farn]

Let me help you out here.

Many people care about journalist integrity. You don't. If you care about something, then it matters when it is tarnished. What Tomase and his editors did tarnished that principle. You've made it clear that this is no big deal to you.

Many people here care about the Patriots. (Obviously.) What Tomase and his editors did, they did at the expense of the Patriots. They knew that this was a direct attack on the Patriots and they knew that they didn't have the sources to back it up. Best as I can tell, either you don't view this as a direct attack on the Patriots like so many of the rest of us do, or you don't really care about the Patriots reputation.

I think this dude sums it up best. Yes, obviously I care about the performance, not necessarily what some consider tarnishing the reputation. To me, the winning is more important. Don't really care about personalities - the players aren't my friends or my family. If they are traded, and the team improves, I am happy - regardless of the player moved.

To me, journalistic integrity is not very important, as I doubt all reporters to start with. Since I value so few of them, it didn't phase me that the Herald didn't live up to the board's expectations. Long story short : he lost his job - that's fair. I guess I just didn't get the all-out hatred.

 

[Rob0729]

Rob, Tomase was one of ours, a local guy. He wrote for our newspaper. Was close to our team, close to the fans. He betrayed our trust for his own greed. The other guys you mentioned, it was expected. There was no betrayal there. Their positions were long established as outsiders. Tomase and the Herald are getting exactly what they earned. That's a complete loss of trust from the fan base. "You reap what you sow"

Tomase is a local guy, but I don't think he is beholding to the Patriots. He shouldn't be their PR department like many writers in this town do for different local teams. If he thought the story was legit, he is not beholding to the Patriots to sit on the story.

I question him running the story because the evidence doesn't back up the story he ran. He was confident in his source. I personally would have wanted to make sure that Walsh in fact did tape the walkthrough before I ran a story like this. But if he had legitimate proof or source of the Patriots cheating (which he in hindsight his source wasn't as firm as he thought), I don't blame him for running with the story.

Even sportwriters are journalists and they shouldn't hide negative things about the team they cover. I blame other journalists more because they maliciously attacked the Patriots for the sole purpose to create a manufactured mountain of evidence consisting on inuendos and rumors for the sole purpose to discredit Belichick and Patriots. That is a far worse crime in my eyes. Tomase has paid dearly for his screw up and these guys haven't.

 

[Deus Irae]

Tomase is a local guy, but I don't think he is beholding to the Patriots. He shouldn't be their PR department like many writers in this town do for different local teams. If he thought the story was legit, he is not beholding to the Patriots to sit on the story.

I question him running the story because the evidence doesn't back up the story he ran. He was confident in his source. I personally would have wanted to make sure that Walsh in fact did tape the walkthrough before I ran a story like this. But if he had legitimate proof or source of the Patriots cheating (which he in hindsight his source wasn't as firm as he thought), I don't blame him for running with the story.

Even sportwriters are journalists and they shouldn't hide negative things about the team they cover. I blame other journalists more because they maliciously attacked the Patriots for the sole purpose to create a manufactured mountain of evidence consisting on inuendos and rumors for the sole purpose to discredit Belichick and Patriots. That is a far worse crime in my eyes. Tomase has paid dearly for his screw up and these guys haven't.

Tomase ran a story alleging major malfeasance on the part of the Patriots without getting sufficient verification, and it was wrong. He did this right before the Super Bowl for maximum effect. Anyone who saw the Falcons play their Super Bowl following "hookergate" knew what a distraction of this magnitude could do to a team's focus, yet tubby ran with it anyway. There's not a single journalist anywhere who should be blamed more.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think this dude sums it up best. Yes, obviously I care about the performance, not necessarily what some consider tarnishing the reputation. To me, the winning is more important. Don't really care about personalities - the players aren't my friends or my family. If they are traded, and the team improves, I am happy - regardless of the player moved.

To me, journalistic integrity is not very important, as I doubt all reporters to start with. Since I value so few of them, it didn't phase me that the Herald didn't live up to the board's expectations. Long story short : he lost his job - that's fair. I guess I just didn't get the all-out hatred.

See, the disconnect is largely because you aren't from here so you don't get the background or context. Long story short: Tomase didn't lose his job. He never even got docked a days pay. He got a lateral transfer that in Boston and to a diehard Sox fan like John is actually a promotion. He's now the lead reporter on the beat that matters most in this town to mediots... So in the end he got rewarded with the only job he's ever wanted.

He was once one of us, a Patriots fan whose favorite Patriot was Steve Grogan. But his first love was the Red Sox and his life's ambition was to cover them for a major daily. When he was first assigned to covering the Pats he used his vacation time to travel to to florida to cover spring training...

First thing he ever wrote on the Pats beat was a scathing piece on how everyone at the owners meetings seemed chummy with each other while Belichick was even snubbed by his former coordinators, and he started another mini media firestorm by sounding the alarm when BB left the meeting before the media breakfast with the coaches...Just fueling the national misperception of Belichick in his role as a Patriots beat writer. Anyone with half a brain who has followed this team for the last several years knows that Belichick is not the dour malcontent the national media longs to portray him as. He's a no nonsense, cerebral guy who doesn't suffer fools, whose players would run through a wall for him, whose select circle of friends scoff at the media's inability to appreciate, and who is arguably the best in a generation at doing what a HC is employed to do for his team and it's fanbase, putting them in a position to win. Yet John had no qualms about his ultimate decision to run a story he lacked first person sourcing for that could have ended BB's NFL career, because if it did that surely would launch his nationally.

That is why the fanbase here detests the tubby creep. National mediots can claim ignorance. They often take their lead from local media in forming national mediot concensus. Tomase, like all his whining peers, had no excuse beyond serving his own self interest. Nobody held a gun to his head, and if they had and he had any integrity he could have written that story and won a pulitzer. Instead he wrote the story he'd been hoping to break since the first day he'd heard it, even as his closest peers warned him they had never been able to substantiate it in years on the beat. He wrote the story that might have taken Belichick down. And it turned out it was never more than a BS rumor.

And for doing that and failing so miserably, he deserved something other than the job of his dreams.

 

[maverick4]

The Pats were known as a business-like group... when everyone was against them, they used it to their advantage... can't have it both ways. Either they are united, strong, us against the world, focused (as everyone says) or they the cowardly bunch who stop playing well in the biggest game of their lives because of a reporter... not buying the second one.

It's not having it both ways. When it was 'us against the world' mentality, they all truly believed they were good, just, right, moral, better, etc. This was why they went 18-0, as an F-U to the league and mediots saying they were cheaters. Then, on the eve of the biggest game of their careers, an article casts doubt on their entire season, their entire motivation for the F-U season. Players on that team that played for honor and winning the right way, suddenly had doubt in their team and in their coaches.

Stop pretending Tomase didn't affect the game. He clearly did.

 

[farn]

And for doing that and failing so miserably, he deserved something other than the job of his dreams.

Didn't know he really, really wanted to move on to Red Sox coverage. That's interesting. It doesn't really change much for me - but I can see how those of you who are hardcore against him would begrudge the move.

 

[farn]

Stop pretending Tomase didn't affect the game. He clearly did.

I dunno- I think BB would say something to the effect that Tomase didn't take any snaps or play "D" on that day and that he was irrelevant to the game.

You aren't alone here to think that it cost them the game, but I'm pretty confident that on this point - I am not alone. Tomase's words weren't wringing in the ears of the defense following Washington's (seemingly game ending) special teams play.

 

[Rob0729]

Tomase ran a story alleging major malfeasance on the part of the Patriots without getting sufficient verification, and it was wrong. He did this right before the Super Bowl for maximum effect. Anyone who saw the Falcons play their Super Bowl following "hookergate" knew what a distraction of this magnitude could do to a team's focus, yet tubby ran with it anyway. There's not a single journalist anywhere who should be blamed more.

Well, we don't know that. What if he heard the story from someone who was on in videotaping department during the time of the Rams' Super Bowl who heard this rumor and portrayed to Tomase as fact?

Tomase didn't wait until right before the Super Bowl for maximum effect. The NY Times did. Tomase was just reacting to the stories by the Times and then ESPN did. The Times piece came out the Friday before Tomase's piece. Mike Fish's Matt Walsh interview came out over the weekend before the Super Bowl and then Tomase's piece came out a few days later. I blame Gregg Bishop and Arlen Specter more than anyone else. I truly believe they timed the piece to distract the Patriots. Specter even bragged about how he was able to get the Patriots to lose the Super Bowl on the Howard Stern show. Tomase was wrong, but Specter and the Times unintentially goated both him and Mike Fish to release two bad stories without much facts and a lot of damaging material because the Times scooped them on Matt Walsh and forced them to release their stories in fear of getting scooped again.

I guess I don't give Specter enough credit. He was able to sneak attack the Patriots and make Pats fans forget all what happened during the weeks in between the AFC Championships and the Super Bowl and only focus on Tomase. Matt Walsh having damaging evidence on the Pats was exposed during that time and the Rams walkthrough rumor was already out there. For me, no journalist needs to be blamed more than Gregg Bishop because he tried to create controversy to distract the Patriots and he succeeded. Tomase was just reacting to him.

It doesn't make Tomase right, but the Pats were already distracted with the Matt Walsh issue that week before Tomase's story.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Tommase got alot of the blame and rightfully so, but Spector , Espn and the Times own share of it.. I dont think it had a full effect, but I think it had a small effect on the team with out a doubt.. Whatever now, its something we cant change...

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Actually, I believe the NFL office is behind this. They has already heard the rumour months before and did nothing the dispel. All they said was if anyone has info ,please forward.

My guess is they wanted "Spygate" to die and used "Ramgate" for max effect. Since the Pats lost, they get the "Spygate" story to die and now they want to get R Kraft back in the fold as the NFL's leading power broker.

 

[Rob0729]

Just for the record here are the articles and when they came out. I got the timeline wrong a bit, but the actually timeline helps Tomase's case.

Here is the original Gregg Bishop story stating Specter wants to launch a further investigation into Spygate printed on Friday, Feb 1 right before the Super Bowl. It introduces the world to Matt Walsh. It seems pretty clear from the interview with Specter and what we have learned afterwards that this was an organized set up for the Pats by Specter and the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/s...;amp;en=a50bd9aa1fdd164a&ei=5087 http://wbztv.com/sports/patriots/New.England.Patriots.2.643278.html

The Mike Fish ESPN Matt Walsh piece published Feb 1. It was obviously a rushed reaction to the Times' piece and had several inflamatory and unverified accusations by Matt Walsh.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3226465

Tomase's Rams' walkthrough piece Saturday, Feb 2. It is obvious based on the Times and ESPN piece, that Tomase rushed this story in reaction.

Source: Pats employee filmed Rams - BostonHerald.com

Sorry, but Specter and the NY Times already opened Pandora's Box before Tomase. The distraction was already there. Tomase made it worse, but he didn't create it and if he didn't run the story it wouldn't have stopped it. I still blame Specter and Bishop more because it was obvious that there was an agenda there in the timing of the story. Tomase was just reacting to their story.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just for the record here are the articles and when they came out. I got the timeline wrong a bit, but the actually timeline helps Tomase's case.

Here is the original Gregg Bishop story stating Specter wants to launch a further investigation into Spygate printed on Friday, Feb 1 right before the Super Bowl. It introduces the world to Matt Walsh. It seems pretty clear from the interview with Specter and what we have learned afterwards that this was an organized set up for the Pats by Specter and the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/s...;amp;en=a50bd9aa1fdd164a&ei=5087 http://wbztv.com/sports/patriots/New.England.Patriots.2.643278.html

The Mike Fish ESPN Matt Walsh piece published Feb 1. It was obviously a rushed reaction to the Times' piece and had several inflamatory and unverified accusations by Matt Walsh.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3226465

Tomase's Rams' walkthrough piece Saturday, Feb 2. It is obvious based on the Times and ESPN piece, that Tomase rushed this story in reaction.

Source: Pats employee filmed Rams - BostonHerald.com

Sorry, but Specter and the NY Times already opened Pandora's Box before Tomase. The distraction was already there. Tomase made it worse, but he didn't create it and if he didn't run the story it wouldn't have stopped it. I still blame Specter and Bishop more because it was obvious that there was an agenda there in the timing of the story. Tomase was just reacting to their story.

Spygate and Cameragate were two separate issues. Cameragate was the one that Tomase broke. Pointing to dead spygate issues that were focused on the league office is simply not the same thing, by any legitimate stretch of the imagination. This stuff doesn't help your argument at all. It actually shows precisely what most of us have been saying.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well, we don't know that. What if he heard the story from someone who was on in videotaping department during the time of the Rams' Super Bowl who heard this rumor and portrayed to Tomase as fact?

Tomase didn't wait until right before the Super Bowl for maximum effect. The NY Times did. Tomase was just reacting to the stories by the Times and then ESPN did. The Times piece came out the Friday before Tomase's piece. Mike Fish's Matt Walsh interview came out over the weekend before the Super Bowl and then Tomase's piece came out a few days later. It doesn't make Tomase right, but the Pats were already distracted with the Matt Walsh issue that week before Tomase's story.

Not true. The Times article came out on Friday the 1st. In it Matt Walsh's name first surfaced as a former employee who claimed he knew about the in game taping and could have offered more information had anyone from the league asked. His famous contention was he could have done what Eric did (outing the process). Mostly it dealt with Specter's ramblings which Goodell was aware of on Thursday and was prepared to deal with.

Then Mike Fish who was obviously sitting Walsh on the rumor for six months fleshed out who Walsh was and what he would and wouldn't say and hinted at his having more damaging information he would not specify. That was the part that really spooked Tomase.

Very next morning the Herald ran with the story of the Rams Superbowl walkthrough having been taped according to an un named source. It was only after THAT story broke that this became more than the ramblings of an unhappy Eagles fan who happened to be a US Senator whom Goodell stated he would deal with after the Superbowl. Goodell THEN had to approach the NEP less than 36 hours before the snap and interview dozens of staff members and coaches about this new and far more troubling allegation, taping a practice. Goodell had heard the rumor in the course of his earlier investigation and found there was no substantiation. But once it appeared in print he had to deal with it publicly either way. That cloud hung over this organization for the next three and a half months until the day Walsh turned over what he had and it amounted to nothing new...

Thus closing the saga for the second time in a year for rational individuals. Only this time after Belichick and the organization endured three more months of having their reputations and accomplishments and careers dragged through the mud over something that never happened...

That's what John did. Now maybe someone else was going to take a crack at it on the heels of Specter's nonsensical rantings, but I kinda doubt it. They certainly weren't willing to take that leap on Friday or Saturday. Goodell was fully prepared to deal with Specter. As well as Walsh (in admitting he knew taping had been going on since 2000 and his penalty was for the practice in it's totality). What Tomase alleged in print represented a whole other kettle of fish.

Tomase had no new source on the eve of a Superbowl other than the same source that fed that rumor to any reporter who covered the beat or anyone else who cared to listen over a five year period. And that source, either unintentionally or deliberately had spun or allowed to be spun a whopper of a tale based on what he assumed they could have done given they had access. All Tomase had in addition as he went to press was the opinion of one indivudual he purportedly respected that this was legit. Based on that he made a career decision not to be the local guy who got scooped by the nationals. Huge error in judgement.

I could spend the rest of the day speculating on which fellow mediot's belief Tomase chose to conclude represented sufficient confirmation, with Borges being the too obvious choice but someone at PFW being my personal best bet. Because within the Boston football media there exists a bitter core group who would like nothing better than to see this man whom they perceive as twarting them at every turn ruined.

 

[Rob0729]

Spygate and Cameragate were two separate issues. Cameragate was the one that Tomase broke. Pointing to dead spygate issues that were focused on the league office is simply not the same thing, by any legitimate stretch of the imagination. This stuff doesn't help your argument at all. It actually shows precisely what most of us have been saying.

Not really. First, without the Times story, there wouldn't have been either the ESPN story (that Mike Fish sat on for months) or Tomase's piece. Tomase would have never released this story if Matt Walsh wasn't outed elsewhere in two different publications. Also, both the Times and ESPN story alleged other examples of cheating by Matt Walsh. The Tomase piece attached a certain instance that was already well known as a rumor for a while (Tom Curran addressed the rumor during Spygate in September and Florio illuded to it on his site). Tomase just made the rumor possible fact.

Again, Tomase's motives were reactionary to the other stories. I believe that Bishop's and Specter's motives were far more sinister. Specter and the Times wanted to sink the Patriots chances to win the Super Bowl because they conveniently released the story the Friday prior to the Super Bowl. Both the ESPN story and Tomase's were just a rush to be first after Walsh was outed which is probably what Specter hoped would have happened in the first place.

I blame Tomase for falling for the bait and rushing a story that should have never had been out there, but his motivations were not sinister. Specter wanted the Patriots distracted for the Super Bowl and he got his wish. It is very clear that the whole Matt Walsh thing was orchestrated by Specter down to him getting him the lawyer and used the Times for his vendetta. Tomase was the baffoon who got caught up into the whirlwind and ended up being the fall guy.

Tomase could have waited until Monday to release the story like Borges held off on the drug issue story until after the Super Bowl. But he was probably worried that someone else would have beaten him to the punch and this is a different time where the Internet has made the whole journalist community adopt the theory of getting it first over getting it right. Tomase deserves much of what he got by fans and his collegues, but I still blame Gregg Bishop and Arlen Specter more for all of this. They started the wheel for Cameragate and they did it specifically to hurt the Pats for the Super Bowl.

 

[Rob0729]

Not true. The Times article came out on Friday the 1st. In it Matt Walsh's name first surfaced as a former employee who claimed he knew about the in game taping and could have offered more information had anyone from the league asked. His famous contention was he could have done what Eric did (outing the process). Mostly it dealt with Specter's ramblings which Goodell was aware of on Thursday and was prepared to deal with.

Then Mike Fish who was obviously sitting Walsh on the rumor for six months fleshed out who Walsh was and what he would and wouldn't say and hinted at his having more damaging information he would not specify. That was the part that really spooked Tomase.

Very next morning the Herald ran with the story of the Rams Superbowl walkthrough having been taped according to an un named source. It was only after THAT story broke that this became more than the ramblings of an unhappy Eagles fan who happened to be a US Senator whom Goodell stated he would deal with after the Superbowl. Goodell THEN had to approach the NEP less than 36 hours before the snap and interview dozens of staff members and coaches about this new and far more troubling allegation, taping a practice. Goodell had heard the rumor in the course of his earlier investigation and found there was no substantiation. But once it appeared in print he had to deal with it publicly either way. That cloud hung over this organization for the next three and a half months until the day Walsh turned over what he had and it amounted to nothing new...

Thus closing the saga for the second time in a year for rational individuals. Only this time after Belichick and the organization endured three more months of having their reputations and accomplishments and careers dragged through the mud over something that never happened...

That's what John did. Now maybe someone else was going to take a crack at it on the heels of Specter's nonsensical rantings, but I kinda doubt it. They certainly weren't willing to take that leap on Friday or Saturday. Goodell was fully prepared to deal with Specter. As well as Walsh (in admitting he knew taping had been going on since 2000 and his penalty was for the practice in it's totality). What Tomase alleged in print represented a whole other kettle of fish.

Tomase had no new source on the eve of a Superbowl other than the same source that fed that rumor to any reporter who covered the beat or anyone else who cared to listen over a five year period. And that source, either unintentionally or deliberately had spun or allowed to be spun a whopper of a tale based on what he assumed they could have done given they had access. All Tomase had in addition as he went to press was the opinion of one indivudual he purportedly respected that this was legit. Based on that he made a career decision not to be the local guy who got scooped by the nationals. Huge error in judgement.

I could spend the rest of the day speculating on which fellow mediot's belief Tomase chose to conclude represented sufficient confirmation, with Borges being the too obvious choice but someone at PFW being my personal best bet. Because within the Boston football media there exists a bitter core group who would like nothing better than to see this man whom they perceive as twarting them at every turn ruined.

What you fail to mention is that what Mike Fish did journalistically is just as bad of a crime as Tomase. You never publish a story where a source claims to have damaging evidence against another person or entity without verifying the evidence or that at least the evidence ever existed. Without that, Tomase and others wouldn't have assumed he had the tape of the walkthrough and ran with the story.

I do believe Tomase heard this story from trusted source (could have been Walsh himself for all we know), but was afraid to run it without more proof. He assumed Walsh had the tape which would confirm his story and ran with it. I agree that is wrong and Tomase has paid a costly price since this whole incident will follow his career for the rest of his life and will probably ruin his chances of progressing any farther than he has gone.

I still value intent more than the information. Tomase had no malicious intent. Others in the media wanted to affect the outcome of the game by creating controversy on the eve of the Super Bowl and I think that is not only wrong, but a huge journalistic crime. A major newspaper like the Times shouldn't have an agenda in their stories and play a willing pawn in Arlen Specter's game to get revenge against the Pats. Specter in turn committed the most heinus crime by abusing his Congressional powers in this whole matter.

Those sicken me more than Tomase especially since those things go far beyond the game of football. You have the premier newspaper in the country using their columns in an agenda to hurt a US company and a senior Senator using his Congressional powers to play fantasy NFL commissioner.

 

[Deus Irae]

Not really. First, without the Times story, there wouldn't have been either the ESPN story (that Mike Fish sat on for months) or Tomase's piece. Tomase would have never released this story if Matt Walsh wasn't outed elsewhere in two different publications. Also, both the Times and ESPN story alleged other examples of cheating by Matt Walsh. The Tomase piece attached a certain instance that was already well known as a rumor for a while (Tom Curran addressed the rumor during Spygate in September and Florio illuded to it on his site). Tomase just made the rumor possible fact.

Again, Tomase's motives were reactionary to the other stories. I believe that Bishop's and Specter's motives were far more sinister. Specter and the Times wanted to sink the Patriots chances to win the Super Bowl because they conveniently released the story the Friday prior to the Super Bowl. Both the ESPN story and Tomase's were just a rush to be first after Walsh was outed which is probably what Specter hoped would have happened in the first place.

I blame Tomase for falling for the bait and rushing a story that should have never had been out there, but his motivations were not sinister. Specter wanted the Patriots distracted for the Super Bowl and he got his wish. It is very clear that the whole Matt Walsh thing was orchestrated by Specter down to him getting him the lawyer and used the Times for his vendetta. Tomase was the baffoon who got caught up into the whirlwind and ended up being the fall guy.

Tomase could have waited until Monday to release the story like Borges held off on the drug issue story until after the Super Bowl. But he was probably worried that someone else would have beaten him to the punch and this is a different time where the Internet has made the whole journalist community adopt the theory of getting it first over getting it right. Tomase deserves much of what he got by fans and his collegues, but I still blame Gregg Bishop and Arlen Specter more for all of this. They started the wheel for Cameragate and they did it specifically to hurt the Pats for the Super Bowl.

You are speculating. Without sufficient sources. That's what got Tomase in trouble in the first place.

 

[Rob0729]

You are speculating. Without sufficient sources. That's what got Tomase in trouble in the first place.

I am giving my opinion on a message board, not putting an article in the paper. My speculations have a lot of evidence to support it. Specter did not hide his motives and has bragged about playing a part in the Patriots losing the Super Bowl. It isn't that hard to support it. We will never know for sure the motivations of any of the players, but actions after that point show there looked to be some agendas there.