Defense wins championships...well Pass Rush does

[AzPatsFan]

No, I'm assuming that,if three of the guys we're counting on were passed over by all 32 teams seven times (plus compensation picks) that we're really counting on catching lightning three times. that's a lot different than "not all pros".



Pittsburgh never has question marks at LB. I'll repeat, never. That's because any linebacker who makes it has to compete with first second and third round picks, top FAs like Farrior in addition to low round picks and FAs. Woodley was a second round pick, brought along through competition. Harrison was a FA who took six years to prove himself through that type od competition.

By contrast, TBC and Alexander failed after being inserted by default and I can't see who Woods or guyton beat out either. By the way, the 15th overall pick from 2007 Timmons, will just be a full time starter this year, his third after the release of Foote. Imagine being able to spend two full seasons grooming a first round pick because you already have an experienced starter.

Face it, Pittsburgh's linebacker situation compared to ours is a joke.


Hmmmm... did someone say assuming? How do you know they have pro potential? One mid round pick and 3 FAs.

Oh, Please do tell of the high college qualifications of Pitt's Mr. Harrison... BTW who is older him or Tedy? Is Farrior older or younger than Vrabel?

Woods won the SOLB job from Vrabel last year, despite what you and others ignore. He's ready to break out. Crabel has all the college credentials that Woodley did.

Elsewhere the Patriots Defense is better on the Defensive line and better in the secondary.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Look, the Patriots signed Colvin, he was hurt a lot. It Happens. They got a great deal with Vrabel. They had four old linebackers to replace. I don't know what it is you want me to read, there simply isn't any reason needed why 5,6,and 7th round picks don't make it. If you get a starter ther you're beating the odds.

Thomas is good, I hope because he's in danger of getting old before his position mates get settled.

There's no need pf massaging the Pittsburgh comment, it's just common sense. If i spend time and money on my lawn, it'll probably be nicer than my neighbor who doesn't. We are depending, not hoping, depending on 3 undrafted free agents a second year player and a free agent who has been injured a bit and hopefully can train 3 other guys. And Bruschi. Maybe he'll get a second wind.

And a third rounder who was a helthy scratch, then IR'd.

Anybody that is enthusiastic about that, good luck to you.

Gee whiz We ONLY have two pro-bowl players for the four LB positions. And of course an old-timer and pro-bowler Tedy as a third backup/starter.

You are complaing because the Pats have a third rounder, a good FA, and a couple of hopefulls to play the only one "open" position? And you are saying we don't have enough. Okay I'll agree, but it is NOT that bad a hand to play.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Regardless of pass rush, 8 of the past 10 Super Bowl winning teams had a top 6 defense. Only the two Manning teams didn't, and they both got there due to fluky wins over the Patriots.

That's certainly my view; as a rule, top D's win SB's.

The OP's point on the Pass Rush is intriguing (or at the very least brings back painful memories of Phoenix for Pats fans), but I would be interested if the OP could produce some stats that make the point.

 

[iapatsfan]

See post #30 in this thread above, where I detail our picks and signings since 2003.

Pittsburgh has drafted (or signed as UDFA) more LBs than the Pats since 2001, no doubt about it. The Pats have signed more FAs, some good (Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas and Seau) and some not so great (Brown, Beisel, Hobson). Pittsburgh's only major FA signing was Farrior, who has been terrific for them.

I am being fair, I think. I said in my earlier post (#30) that I thought BB had just missed on some good players (Tatupu, Bradley) but had also made some possible mistakes in passing up on others (Dansby being the most obvious; it's too early to tell how the players he passed up in the most recent draft will turn out). We have been far from perfect in the LB arena, and I think BB's biggest justifiable criticism is that he waited a bit too long before rebuilding the position; but he has made some efforts, and we have had some unfortunate injuries and unexpected events (the timing of Johnson's retirement, Bruschi's stroke). Pittsburgh has been far from perfect too, but has a bit more to show for their efforts, mainly because of striking gold with Harrison. Woodley has developed beautifully so far. Farrior is aging, I'm not convinced Timmons will be more than solid, and they have little depth at ILB. They clearly deserve a lot of credit for knowing what players fit well within their system, and I think **** LeBeau deserves enormous credit.

I think BB got caught by being a bit too loyal to his veterans and dragged his heels a bit in terms of rebuilding the LB corps. As a result, age, injuries and lack of speed caught up with us in 2006-2007. But he invested a lot of resources in the position in the last few years: Thomas, Mayo, Woods, Crable, Redd and Guyton all have 2 or less seasons of experience behind them (Woods was drafted in 2006 but played exclusively on ST his first year). Again, I was hoping for a day 1 LB this year or a major trade/FA signing; but if BB thinks those guys are developing and is willing to go with them, then I say we need to give them a chance.

I think this "developing" thing is overrated. None of the Pats current developmental guys (Woods, Crable and Redd) were very good pass rushers in college. Why does anyone think they are all of the sudden going to become quality pass rushers at a higher level? For the most part, I don't think players develop into pass rushers. Certain guys have it and certain guys don't. I know their are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it holds true. I am a huge BB guy, but I think his ego gets in the way when it comes to LBs. My perception is he thinks he can throw anyone out there and coach them up. This has not been proven to work. Every decent pass rusher we have had was a quality pass rusher prior to coming to the Pats, whether it was in college or the NFL. Why they don't go after guys that have proven to have this ability more often, and why they continue to bring in these developmental bums is beyond me.

 

[RayClay]

Oh, Please do tell of the high college qualifications of Pitt's Mr. Harrison... BTW who is older him or Tedy? Is Farrior older or younger than Vrabel?

Woods won the SOLB job from Vrabel last year, despite what you and others ignore. He's ready to break out. Crabel has all the college credentials that Woodley did.

Elsewhere the Patriots Defense is better on the Defensive line and better in the secondary.

It took him five years of battling.

Competition is good. When have we had any at LB?

Remember when the default TBC failed and the other default was sent in in a playoff game?

Woods outplayed Vrabel? Ha ha. Have another sip. Try lime this time. Vrabel had been playing injured for a few years because we had no one else.

Crabel has all the college credentials that Woodley did

Pitiful. Even when you stretch you have to make 3=2. lol Or should I say 78=46.

Why stop there? Three #2's a 3 and a 4 is exactly the same as one #3.

Wow, you're right, there's no difference.

 

[RayClay]

I think this "developing" thing is overrated. None of the Pats current developmental guys (Woods, Crable and Redd) were very good pass rushers in college. Why does anyone think they are all of the sudden going to become quality pass rushers at a higher level? For the most part, I don't think players develop into pass rushers. Certain guys have it and certain guys don't. I know their are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it holds true. I am a huge BB guy, but I think his ego gets in the way when it comes to LBs. My perception is he thinks he can throw anyone out there and coach them up. This has not been proven to work. Every decent pass rusher we have had was a quality pass rusher prior to coming to the Pats, whether it was in college or the NFL. Why they don't go after guys that have proven to have this ability more often, and why they continue to bring in these developmental bums is beyond me.

Good point, and that include Bruschi and Vrabel. Colvin was coming off two 10.5 sack seasons.

 

[JDSal45]

The premise of this post is simply wrong. First of all, if its a Super Bowl winning team....they are probably good. And if they are good, they probably have the lead alot. Which inflates sack statistics as the other teams obviously pass alot, particularly in obvious passing situations while trailing.

But here are a few stats to chew on. Who led the league in sacks last year? Dallas. They didn't even make the playoffs. And though you cite the 2006 Colts as having a great pass rush, the simple fact is they finished SECOND TO LAST in the entire NFL with 25 total team sacks in 2006. Only Washington had less with 19. That is ridiculous. They DID NOT HAVE A GOOD PASS RUSH!!! They had the second WORST pass rush in the entire league.

The 2001, 2003 and 2004 Champion Patriots teams did not lead the league in sacks. Nor did the 2002 Bucs.

And you could take similar stats and say its not pass rush....its run defense. For example, only 2 of the 9 champions we have had this decade have given up over 100 yards per game.

The simple fact is, there is no elixer. A good pass rush is a guarantee of nothing....see Dallas last year. A terrible one doesn't mean you can't win the championship....see the 2006 Colts.

And thus, I must conclude your premise is wrong.

J D Sal

 

[Deus Irae]

I think this "developing" thing is overrated. None of the Pats current developmental guys (Woods, Crable and Redd) were very good pass rushers in college. Why does anyone think they are all of the sudden going to become quality pass rushers at a higher level? For the most part, I don't think players develop into pass rushers. Certain guys have it and certain guys don't. I know their are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it holds true. I am a huge BB guy, but I think his ego gets in the way when it comes to LBs. My perception is he thinks he can throw anyone out there and coach them up. This has not been proven to work. Every decent pass rusher we have had was a quality pass rusher prior to coming to the Pats, whether it was in college or the NFL. Why they don't go after guys that have proven to have this ability more often, and why they continue to bring in these developmental bums is beyond me.

All skills are developed. There's never been a single instance of a human being being born with all the skills and moves necessary to step into a pro sports team lineup. Michael Jordan's jump shot sucked in college and during his early pro years. People need a minimum skill threshhold and, from there, it becomes about dedication, refinement and learning, with a bit of chaos theory applications thrown in for good measure.

 

[iapatsfan]

Oh, Please do tell of the high college qualifications of Pitt's Mr. Harrison... BTW who is older him or Tedy? Is Farrior older or younger than Vrabel?

Woods won the SOLB job from Vrabel last year, despite what you and others ignore. He's ready to break out. Crabel has all the college credentials that Woodley did.

Elsewhere the Patriots Defense is better on the Defensive line and better in the secondary.

Woods is terrible. What exactly is he going to break out into? He had 8 sacks in 4 yrs at Michigan. Is he now going to become a good pass rusher while facing better O Linemen?

Also, Crable was nowhere near the player Woodley was. Woodley had 12 sacks as a senior and won the Lombardi award as the best lineman in the country.

Like I have said in other posts, guys that rush the passer well in college have a much better shot of rushing the passer well in the NFL than guys like Woods, Crable and Redd. I don't know why people on this board, or in the Pats front office, feel these guys are the answer when they've never shown the ability to get after the QB.

 

[iapatsfan]

All skills are developed. There's never been a single instance of a human being being born with all the skills and moves necessary to step into a pro sports team lineup. Michael Jordan's jump shot sucked in college and during his early pro years. People need a minimum skill threshhold and, from there, it becomes about dedication, refinement and learning, with a bit of chaos theory applications thrown in for good measure.

You give me 1 player that wasn't a good pass rusher in college, and then became one in the pros, and I'll give you 10 quality NFL pass rushers that were quality college pass rushers.

Look at the decent pass rushers we have had recently, Vrabel - When he left OSU he held the school record for sacks in a season. Willie - Beast of a pass rusher while at USC (29 sacks). Colvin - Had school record for sacks in a season at Purdue. Thomas - Was school's all time leader in sacks when he left.

You compare these resumes to Crable, Redd and Woods and it's embarassing. They were below avg pass rushers in college, and I bet they'll always be below avg pass rushers in the pros. I may be wrong, but history and logic are on my side.

 

[Deus Irae]

You give me 1 player that wasn't a good pass rusher in college, and then became one in the pros, and I'll give you 10 quality NFL pass rushers that were quality college pass rushers.

Look at the decent pass rushers we have had recently, Vrabel - When he left OSU he held the school record for sacks in a season. Willie - Beast of a pass rusher while at USC (29 sacks). Colvin - Had school record for sacks in a season at Purdue. Thomas - Was school's all time leader in sacks when he left.

You compare these resumes to Crable, Redd and Woods and it's embarassing. They were below avg pass rushers in college, and I bet they'll always be below avg pass rushers in the pros. I may be wrong, but history and logic are on my side.

I find your use of "embarassing" to be fascinating, particularly given those you did, and did not, choose to use as examples. When Bruschi was tormenting college defenses, was he doing it as a middle linebacker? Did he just immediately transition into a middle linebacker after a scant handful of practices? How about Vrabel? Did he make the switch from sackmaster in College to dominant NFL player in one training camp?

Yes, there has to be an ember to start the fire. However, if the ember's there, it's a matter of patience, learning and work with a little bit of random occurrence tossed in for good measure.

 

[RayClay]

I find your use of "embarassing" to be fascinating, particularly given those you did, and did not, choose to use as examples. When Bruschi was tormenting college defenses, was he doing it as a middle linebacker? Did he just immediately transition into a middle linebacker after a scant handful of practices? How about Vrabel? Did he make the switch from sackmaster in College to dominant NFL player in one training camp?

Yes, there has to be an ember to start the fire. However, if the ember's there, it's a matter of patience, learning and work with a little bit of random occurrence tossed in for good measure.

Talk about changing the subject

You give me 1 player that wasn't a good pass rusher in college, and then became one in the pros, and I'll give you 10 quality NFL pass rushers that were quality college pass rushers.

He didn't even mention Bruschi, but i will.

Bruschi played college football at the University of Arizona as a defensive end, where he tied the NCAA Division I-A sack record with 52 quarterback sacks.

The subject is pass rushing ability. Our linebackers used to have a demonstrated ability. Now they don't (except Crable who had 16 in his career?) This is worse than I thought, 16 total?

Tedy Bruschi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Deus Irae]

Talk about changing the subject



He didn't even mention Bruschi, but i will.



The subject is pass rushing ability. Our linebackers used to have a demonstrated ability. Now they don't (except Crable who had 16 in his career?) This is worse than I thought, 16 total?

Tedy Bruschi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1.) It was not a subject change, it was a point about developed skills.

2.) I know he didn't mention Bruschi. I did.

3.) Bruschi's NFL career high in sacks is 4.5, and he only had 4 or more sacks in a season 3 times in his career. Did he lose that "it" that allowed him to rush the passer so well in college, or was something else at work?

4.) Crable had 13 sacks in his final two years of college. How is he being ignored by those screaming for a pass rush? Oh, wait, you're not ignoring it, you're diluting it by merging it into his first two seasons where he totaled 4 sacks. (ESPN numbers used here, for reference).

So, let's add this up..... Thomas is a pass rusher, Crable is a potential pass rusher, Guyton had a 5 sack season as a senior and Mayo had a 5 sack season the year prior to his last in college. The team was actively seeking to bring in Jason Taylor and is now reportedly looking for other veteran help at OLB.

You people really need to deal with the reality that not every position on the team will be filled by All-Pro players.

 

[RayClay]

1.) It was not a subject change, it was a point about developed skills.

2.) I know he didn't mention Bruschi. I did.

3.) Bruschi's NFL career high in sacks is 4.5, and he only had 4 or more sacks in a season 3 times in his career. Did he lose that "it" that allowed him to rush the passer so well in college, or was something else at work?

4.) Crable had 13 sacks in his final two years of college. How is he being ignored by those screaming for a pass rush? Oh, wait, you're not ignoring it, you're diluting it by merging it into his first two seasons where he totaled 4 sacks. (ESPN numbers used here, for reference).

So, let's add this up..... Thomas is a pass rusher, Crable is a potential pass rusher, Guyton had a 5 sack season as a senior and Mayo had a 5 sack season the year prior to his last in college. The team was actively seeking to bring in Jason Taylor and is now reportedly looking for other veteran help at OLB.

You people really need to deal with the reality that not every position on the team will be filled by All-Pro players.

No, his point was that good NFL pass rushers were usually top college pass rushers.

It's a very good point and not complicated.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, his point was that good NFL pass rushers were usually top college pass rushers.

It's a very good point and not complicated.

Wrong again:

I think this "developing" thing is overrated....

The post I later commented on, which you followed up on, was his development of the earlier post. By no means was I changing the subject. Frankly, I find all the arguments you people are making to be highly amusing, so I have no reason to change the subject.

 

[iapatsfan]

No, his point was that good NFL pass rushers were usually top college pass rushers.

It's a very good point and not complicated.

That was my point exactly. In a 3-4 defense, where getting pressure from your OLBs is crucial, you think you would bring in guys that have proven to have that ability. It seems the roster, as it currently stands, consists of one guy (Thomas) that's a decent pass rusher, and a bunch of guys we hope will "develop" into pass rushers. To me it just seems your odds of success greatly increase when you try to "develop" the guys that have already shown pass rush ability.

 

[Deus Irae]

That was my point exactly. In a 3-4 defense, where getting pressure from your OLBs is crucial, you think you would bring in guys that have proven to have that ability. It seems the roster, as it currently stands, consists of one guy (Thomas) that's a decent pass rusher, and a bunch of guys we hope will "develop" into pass rushers. To me it just seems your odds of success greatly increase when you try to "develop" the guys that have already shown pass rush ability.

Crable did show pass rush ability.

 

[iapatsfan]

Crable did show pass rush ability.

I guess a career total of 16 sacks in college isn't enough evidence for me.

 

[RayClay]

Wrong again:



The post I later commented on, which you followed up on, was his development of the earlier post. By no means was I changing the subject. Frankly, I find all the arguments you people are making to be highly amusing, so I have no reason to change the subject.

I think this "developing" thing is overrated...


None of the Pats current developmental guys (Woods, Crable and Redd) were very good pass rushers in college.

Why does anyone think they are all of the sudden going to become quality pass rushers at a higher level?

For the most part, I don't think players develop into pass rushers. Certain guys have it and certain guys don't.

.................

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, just a note on that fabulous Steelers development crew:

Harrison, an undrafted free agent in 2002, was cut three times by the Steelers in two years, the last coming in 2003 when he made the 53-man roster, only to be dropped several days later in favor of safety Erik Flowers. Earlier that spring, he also was cut by the Ravens after they allocated him to the Rhein Fire of NFL Europe.

They cut Harrison 3 times in 2 years. It's not as if they were committed to the cause from day one with him. The Ravens, another linebacker-based team, also cut him. Yes, lets point to him as proof of the superiority of the Steelers way.