Defense wins championships...well Pass Rush does

[Deus Irae]

When you can't make a single point, you always say you won, while still not proving a single thing.

It's an amusing tactic.

It hasn't turned any of the Jags we have to depend on, into players one could reasonably expect to compete as full time starters in the NFL, however.

Ummmm.... you admitted you'd been exaggerating (I believe hyperbole was how you described it) with some of your assertions. Your point about who the Steelers compete against was shown to be wrong with just one name. I'm not sure how you claim I've not made a single point. By the way:

How many Pro Bowls has Alonzo Jackson gone to?
How many starts does Alonzo Jackson have and who's he starting for now?
How many Pro Bowls has Rian Wallace gone to?
How many starts does Rian Wallace have and who's he starting for now?
What round was Larry Foote drafted in?
How many great seasons has Kendrell Bell had since leaving Pittsburgh?
How many great seasons did Kendrell Bell have in Pittsburgh?
Was Kendrell Bell a first round pick?
How many career starts does Roger Knight have?
How many sacks does Roger Knight have for his career?
What round was Clark Haggans drafted in?
What round was Joey Porter drafted in?

I ask these questions because those were the linebackers drafted by Pittsburgh in the 10 seasons prior to 2007. Now, one last follow up question pair:

What first rounders were keeping Harrington out of the lineup?
What first rounders caused Harrington to get cut 3 times in 2 years?

 

[RayClay]

Ummmm.... you admitted you'd been exaggerating (I believe hyperbole was how you described it) with some of your assertions. Your point about who the Steelers compete against was shown to be wrong with just one name. I'm not sure how you claim I've not made a single point. By the way:

How many Pro Bowls has Alonzo Jackson gone to?
How many starts does Alonzo Jackson have and who's he starting for now?
How many Pro Bowls has Rian Wallace gone to?
How many starts does Rian Wallace have and who's he starting for now?
What round was Larry Foote drafted in?
How many great seasons has Kendrell Bell had since leaving Pittsburgh?
How many great seasons did Kendrell Bell have in Pittsburgh?
Was Kendrell Bell a first round pick?
How many career starts does Roger Knight have?
How many sacks does Roger Knight have for his career?
What round was Clark Haggans drafted in?
What round was Joey Porter drafted in?

I ask these questions because those were the linebackers drafted by Pittsburgh in the 10 seasons prior to 2007. Now, one last follow up question pair:

What first rounders were keeping Harrington out of the lineup?
What first rounders caused Harrington to get cut 3 times in 2 years?

So you've given up trying to convince anyone that the Patriots are set at linebacker?

 

[Deus Irae]

So you've given up trying to convince anyone that the Patriots are set at linebacker?

I've been pretty consistent in saying I wanted Jason Taylor and that I thought D. Brooks was another player I'd be interested in having them bring in. Given that, please find where I said they were set at linebacker, link to it or post it, and then answer my questions. You are the one, along with Mg, railing against the Patriots for their approach to the linebackers, after all.

 

[RayClay]

I've been pretty consistent in saying I wanted Jason Taylor and that I thought D. Brooks was another player I'd be interested in having them bring in. Given that, please find where I said they were set at linebacker, link to it or post it, and then answer my questions. You are the one, along with Mg, railing against the Patriots for their approach to the linebackers, after all.

Well then, we agree. I'd be happy to get a vet and bring along a jag at ILB. Since they have only two proven players now, I don't see why they don't spend a little on something besides UDFAs in case of injury.

It would be great to get something for nothing, but players that are available for nothing usually take time and training, which means future, not now.

If you get the impression I don't think they've done enough to restock the position for 4-5 years, you're right.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Well then, we agree. I'd be happy to get a vet and bring along a jag at ILB. Since they have only two proven players now, I don't see why they don't spend a little on something besides UDFAs in case of injury.

It would be great to get something for nothing, but players that are available for nothing usually take time and training, which means future, not now.

If you get the impression I don't think they've done enough to restock the position for 4-5 years, you're right.

Ray,

If you are going to grow low rated players, it does take time. But the Pats, and Pitt do so, and already have invested time, and culled.

Robertson didn't make it after a year; the others are still around. Woods had three years of training before he saw the starters position last season, at SOLB. I assume Crabel, Redd, Craig and all will have another year of training, and might be ready in 2010, but they can spot contribute this season, as sophs.

TBC went thru four years of training and started to see reserve reps before heading off the SF for fairly good money. Now he returns. I would not say that either of these Woods and TBC, are inexperienced players. They may not be stars, (yet, or maybe ever), but they are qualified to play their positions. The untrained, raw youngsters are Crabel. a high draft pick, and Redd and Craig, raw developmental players, in the pipeline. Even there, they all have a year of training invested in them.

I can see why Belichick acted and drafted so unconcerned. He really beleives that he has several good ones coming on at OLB. He has never shied from starting youngsters when he feels thay have earned it. Its just fear of the unknown that prompts so much skepticism from the fans.

 

[mgteich]

???????
Please list ONE low rated player that the Belichick patriots have developed to be a quality starting linebacker. Since this is supposedly the chosen method for the patriots, then this shouldn't be a difficult task.

IMHO, that is NOT Belichick's method. Belichick inherited McGinist, Slade, Johnson and Bruschi. His chosen method of improvement and maintenance has been to bring in free agents: Phifer, Cox, Vrabel, Colvin, Beisel, Chad Brown, Thomas, Hobson and Banta-Cain . It was only in 2008 did the strategy change to include top 100 draft picks (Mayo in 2008 and McKenzie in 2009). The situation is as Ray suggests:

"If you get the impression I don't think they've done enough to restock the position for 4-5 years, you're right."
===================================

HOWEVER, my personal belief is that Belichick has simply delayed his normal strategy for filling linebacker positions. I still expect to see 2-4 linebackers signed before camp. Hopefully, Burgess will be the first. Napolean Harris anyone?

Ray,
If you are going to grow low rated players, it does take time. But the Pats, and Pitt do so, and already have invested time, and culled.
............
I can see why Belichick acted and drafted so unconcerned. He really beleives that he has several good ones coming on at OLB. He has never shied from starting youngsters when he feels thay have earned it. Its just fear of the unknown that prompts so much skepticism from the fans.

 

[RayClay]

Ray,

If you are going to grow low rated players, it does take time. But the Pats, and Pitt do so, and already have invested time, and culled.

Robertson didn't make it after a year; the others are still around. Woods had three years of training before he saw the starters position last season, at SOLB. I assume Crabel, Redd, Craig and all will have another year of training, and might be ready in 2010, but they can spot contribute this season, as sophs.

TBC went thru four years of training and started to see reserve reps before heading off the SF for fairly good money. Now he returns. I would not say that either of these Woods and TBC, are inexperienced players. They may not be stars, (yet, or maybe ever), but they are qualified to play their positions. The untrained, raw youngsters are Crabel. a high draft pick, and Redd and Craig, raw developmental players, in the pipeline. Even there, they all have a year of training invested in them.

I can see why Belichick acted and drafted so unconcerned. He really beleives that he has several good ones coming on at OLB. He has never shied from starting youngsters when he feels thay have earned it. Its just fear of the unknown that prompts so much skepticism from the fans.

If you are going to grow low rated players, it does take time.

Yes it does, a very good point. I'm happy to see we finally have some competition at LB, albeit only among players available for free.

TBC did not leave because of an offer, though he received one. His time with us ended when we were forced to replace him in a playoff game, with another nonentity. This was one of our saddest chapters.

When players are given positions by default due to lack of competition, this can happen. All we got out of our entire program to replace aging players in the 2000's before Woods was two special teamers, both of whom could be gone by September.

Pierre Woods beat out one 6th rounder, then was handed the job after two years of special teams and virtually no competition. Sound familiar?

If we continue to keep 4-8 linebackers with actual (size etc.) potential to start between the back of the roster and practice squad (where we've hardly had LBs compared to other positions, curiously)
Maybe we will get 1 or 2 NFL quality starters in a few years.

Maybe there will actually be some competion at OLB between Woods Crabel and Redd and maybe it will produce an NFL quality starter.

There hasn't been such competition and imagining a totally unfocused scenario to produce a quality NFL starter in the short space of a training camp is hope, not what NFL teams want to depend on at the start of a season. Having them fight for time while we bring in a vet is a scenario more likely to have results IMO. I don't think Woods would beat out an actual NFL starter at this point.

I realize they try to save money at LB and I love our expensive D Line. It's a fact of life, however, that you need to spen either money, resources, or you own time and work.

They haven't worked to provide competition at LB until last year. It will take time and continued stocking of UDFAs and street free agents to have the similar success to teams that spend money and draft picks, it's only common sense.

Somebody wins the lottery every day. That doesn't mean it wil always be you. They'll probably bring in one vet and try to bring along the young players to find a starter, maybe two, eventually.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You argue poorly.

Everyone that's not an established pro Bowl veteran, is not an undrafted free agent.

Why are we eliminating 90% of NFL players?

Rod Smith was a great player. He was an undrafted free agent. Therefore all undrafted free agents will be great players.

Great debating logic.

What's wrong with UDFAs? James Harrison was one.

 

[BradyFTW!]

TBC did not leave because of an offer, though he received one. His time with us ended when we were forced to replace him in a playoff game, with another nonentity. This was one of our saddest chapters.

You haven't been a Pats fan for very long if you think that 2005-2006 was one of our saddest chapters. BTW, what makes you so certain that that's the reasoning behind the TBC move? You talked to Belichick/Pioli about it?

When players are given positions by default due to lack of competition, this can happen. All we got out of our entire program to replace aging players in the 2000's before Woods was two special teamers, both of whom could be gone by September.

I realize they try to save money at LB and I love our expensive D Line. It's a fact of life, however, that you need to spen either money, resources, or you own time and work.

WTF are you even trying to say here? If you love our expensive D-Line, then get over it. The price of that is "only" having 2 pro bowlers at linebacker. You're randomly criticizing my logic with lame strawman arguments, but how about you try using some yourself, in any capacity?

 

[RayClay]

What's wrong with UDFAs? James Harrison was one.

So was Rod Smith.

So now we're going to eliminate 99% of the starters and call it the norm?

What's wrong with Jerod Mayo?

He didn't take 5 years to become a starter either. That would be 2014 if you're counting.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So was Rod Smith.

So now we're going to eliminate 99% of the starters and call it the norm?

What's wrong with Jerod Mayo?

He didn't take 5 years to become a starter either. That would be 2014 if you're counting.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's absolutely idiotic to say that someone can't play because he's an UDFA. It's not common, but it happens. In the case of a guy like Guyton, he's already shown, on the field, that he can play. Same with Woods. Yet people like you don't care because they're UDFA's. It's dumb, and luckily for all of us Belichick is too smart to think like that.

Kinda funny though, how you start your post by criticizing me of claiming an exception as the norm, then use Mayo as the standard for how quickly a guy should be starting.

 

[RayClay]

You haven't been a Pats fan for very long if you think that 2005-2006 was one of our saddest chapters. BTW, what makes you so certain that that's the reasoning behind the TBC move? You talked to Belichick/Pioli about it?

When players are given positions by default due to lack of competition, this can happen. All we got out of our entire program to replace aging players in the 2000's before Woods was two special teamers, both of whom could be gone by September.



WTF are you even trying to say here? If you love our expensive D-Line, then get over it. The price of that is "only" having 2 pro bowlers at linebacker. You're randomly criticizing my logic with lame strawman arguments, but how about you try using some yourself, in any capacity?

Saddest in the Belichick era. Blowing a lead to the colts and watching the exhausted linebackers gasping for air.

I assume the "haven't been a fan long" was a joke.

The price of that is "only" having 2 pro bowlers at linebacker.

You're the one hung up on pro bowlers, We haven't restocked the LB position in the Belichick era. We use 4 linebackers, we've acquired 3 and 2 of them have already left/retired/traded, Bruschi is on the way IMO.

We acquired Seau in his late thirties, I don't count him for obvious reasons.

So, we have one over thirty linebacker acquired and a first round pick.

My argument

It's simple. I say we've had and continue to have trouble restocking the linebacker position with our current strategy.

Until Woods becomes a proven NFL starter, we have never successfully replaced a linebacker with a low round or UDFA.

Except for Crable, that seems the only strategy currently.

[Thomas was already an All Pro when acquired]

 

[RayClay]

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's absolutely idiotic to say that someone can't play because he's an UDFA.

Except i never said that.

I say that believing that's more likely than a high priced free agent or high draft pick succeeding is belief or faith.


Anything is possible. Some things are more likely than others. It's really not that complicated.

 

[RayClay]

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's absolutely idiotic to say that someone can't play because he's an UDFA. It's not common, but it happens. In the case of a guy like Guyton, he's already shown, on the field, that he can play. Same with Woods. Yet people like you don't care because they're UDFA's. It's dumb, and luckily for all of us Belichick is too smart to think like that.

Kinda funny though, how you start your post by criticizing me of claiming an exception as the norm, then use Mayo as the standard for how quickly a guy should be starting.

Well, people thought TBC had shown he could play. He did Special teams, with no competition, groomed to take the spot.

Then the playoffs came. Apparently he hadn't "proved" anything. we had to replace him with an even more "unproven" player, meanwhile our overworked LBs were gasping as we blew a lead and the season.

The result of that game "proved" a lot more to me than a guy who was later cut starting a few games.

If there's a job opening and you're the only applicant, you've proved you were the best choice. What does that really prove?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Not much to add other than you know we've got it good when a group including Adalius Thomas and Jerrod Mayo are considered the 'weak' part of the team This team is going to be sick, barring injury it's gotta be our year.

 

[RayClay]

Not much to add other than you know we've got it good when a group including Adalius Thomas and Jerrod Mayo are considered the 'weak' part of the team This team is going to be sick, barring injury it's gotta be our year.

There's no doubt that the rest of our team is totally stacked, even the Defensive backfield, though there's a transition factor.

Most teams have several positions with major question marks.

Besides O line, there aren't any other spots worth talking about IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

There's no doubt that the rest of our team is totally stacked, even the Defensive backfield, though there's a transition factor.

Most teams have several positions with major question marks.

Besides O line, there aren't any other spots worth talking about IMO.

The defensive backfield has more questions than the linebacking corps.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

The defensive backfield has more questions than the linebacking corps.

Could you please elaborate on that Desiree?

Thanks

 

[Deus Irae]

Could you please elaborate on that Desiree?

Thanks

I've done so elsewhere, but I'll do some bullet points....

1.) Who's #1 CB?

2.) Who's #2 CB?

3.) Who's going to start at nickel CB?

4.) Will Sanders and Meriweather keep the same roles, or switch?

5.) Is Chung #3 and, if so, at which position(s)

6.) Will Tank make the squad as a safety?

7.) Assuming Springs wins the #1 job (or #2 for those who believe he's not already locked in at #1), what's going to happen when he suffers his almost inevitable injury?

With so little experience at CB, and with only 1 CB actually coming off of even a decent year, what exactly can be expected from this group? For all the complaining that a very small group is doing about the linebackers, it's the secondary with the most unanswered questions.

 

[RayClay]

The defensive backfield has more questions than the linebacking corps.

One might be too old, one's a rookie, though a highly touted one, one has injury concerns.