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Woody Paige on the Cassel/Cutler fiasco


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Are you claiming that the offer was made prior to Bodden coming to town? If not, your argument is completely irrelevant.
Bodden was in town on 2/27. Cassel was traded on 2/28.

I don't know when the offer was made. And neither does anyone here. But they PROBABLY were talking numbers when he was in town which coincided with when Cassel was traded.

They couldn't buy anything until Cassel was traded. So they moved on the first good offer they got. Now, could they have waited two days, got a better deal and still signed Bodden and Springs ? As those two FA signed a little later, maybe, if there was a better deal to be made. But they didn't know that. For all they knew, they could have kept Cassel, not gotten a better deal, and seen Bodden and Springs sign elsewhere in the meantime.

I am not saying I know they made the best deal. But I am saying they were happy to get a valuable pick and open up the credit card right as the store opened. They may have lost the best case (we don't know as we don't know what the best case may have been) but they avoided the worst case. Knowing then what they knew then, I think it was the right move unless they thought there was a REALLY good chance of the 3 way trade getting done and done quickly.
 
You have to have a pretty vivid imagination to conjure up a scenario under which Bill Belichick does anything other that what is in the clear best interests of his football team. It doesn't matter how many links or timelines you've studied or what you think may or may not have happened. If you get to the conclusion that Belichick passed up on greater value, you're analysis must be wrong simply because your conclusion makes no sense whatsoever.
 
Seriously, you are missing the point entirely.

Pioli knew that Belichick had to deal Cassel. He also had to know (or reasonably suspect) that he had the best and perhaps only deal on the table. Nobody will ever know what happened between Belichick and Pioli at that point. My perspective is that Pioli knew Belichick had to make a deal and if KC pulled out, the Pats could potentially be screwed. That is leverage and leverage is power. Pioli used that power and got a deal done.

The only thing worse than your mocking attitude is your naive perspective. Of course Pioli wouldn't want Belichick to wait and use the #34 offer to drive up the price. Time was working against Pioli, but Cassel's cap hit (which KC fully accepted without renegotiation) was working for him. I'm not saying that Pioli threatened to pull the offer in 36 hours or 36 minutes or 36 days. I am saying that it is perfectly reasonable to think that Pioli told Belichick that he was prepared to walk away at any time and stick with a combination of Thigpen, the #3 pick and whatever FA QBs were available. He would have been stupid not to.

That isn't Belichick being used or doing a solid for Pioli. That is Belichick practicing effective risk management and Pioli using the circumstances to best benefit his team. Good for them. The only losers in this situation are the ones late to the party because they couldn't get their act together in time.

1.) The deal was made less than 18 hours into free agency (a friday). This is known because Vrabel was getting his physical at 2:30 pm on the friday, which would be 14.5 hours into the free agency period.

2.) The roster bonus was not due on the Friday. It was not even due on the Saturday. Furthermore, roster bonus dates can be moved if both parties agree.

3.) There were CLEARLY deals to be made elsewhere. The only question here is why BB didn't wait longer to see if something better came his way.

4.) You seem to think that BB would be stupid, or desperate, enough to buy a threat of "We'll go with Thigpen" and just leap at a deal. BB is a brilliant man at risk management, but he's too stupid to think that Pioli would be bluffing with the "Tyler is my man!" approach? You're buying this, and I'm the naive one? I love this.
 
Bodden was in town on 2/27. Cassel was traded on 2/28.

I don't know when the offer was made. And neither does anyone here. But they PROBABLY were talking numbers when he was in town which coincided with when Cassel was traded.

They couldn't buy anything until Cassel was traded. So they moved on the first good offer they got. Now, could they have waited two days, got a better deal and still signed Bodden and Springs ? As those two FA signed a little later, maybe, if there was a better deal to be made. But they didn't know that. For all they knew, they could have kept Cassel, not gotten a better deal, and seen Bodden and Springs sign elsewhere in the meantime.

I am not saying I know they made the best deal. But I am saying they were happy to get a valuable pick and open up the credit card right as the store opened. They may have lost the best case (we don't know as we don't know what the best case may have been) but they avoided the worst case. Knowing then what they knew then, I think it was the right move unless they thought there was a REALLY good chance of the 3 way trade getting done and done quickly.

The deal was announced on the 27th. However, not all the terms were immediately announced. Again, the timeline....
 
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If you get to the conclusion that Belichick passed up on greater value, you're analysis must be wrong simply because your conclusion makes no sense whatsoever.

*Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding*.... We have a winner.
 
I think there were some better deals but BB must have had some agreement with pioli to get cassel so he waisted no time in trading him.
 
You have to have a pretty vivid imagination to conjure up a scenario under which Bill Belichick does anything other that what is in the clear best interests of his football team. It doesn't matter how many links or timelines you've studied or what you think may or may not have happened. If you get to the conclusion that Belichick passed up on greater value, you're analysis must be wrong simply because your conclusion makes no sense whatsoever.

You do realize that BB has passed up on greater value in order to get things done in the past, right? I mean, he has been willing to take less than full book value on picks, after all, meaning he's giving up value to move down.
 
*Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding*.... We have a winner.

Nice appeal to authority.


Everyone makes mistakes, even BB. (See Jackson, Chad, or Stark, Duane)
 
Anybody get the feeling that this is all a media conspiracy to punish Pats fans and make us turn on our team?

Look what we should be happy about?

#34 pick in the draft
Cassel makes plenty of money and a chance to run his own team.
Vrabel doesn't have to be cut and gets his roster bonus
Pioli and McDaniels move on to greater positions.

Now we get treated to the never ending speculation on how BB is devious or stupid.
 
Dont listen to woody paige. I was an intern in college with ESPN. Wanna know what my main duty was? Spooning Peanut Butter to Woody during commercial breaks to make it look like he was talking. Then another intern would take the most ridiculous quotes off the espn forums and voice over woodys dialogue. Woody Paige is brain dead and can only slap his gums and smile. Its sad really. And please no one ask what I caught Skip Bayless doing to Woody.
 
Dont listen to woody paige. I was an intern in college with ESPN. Wanna know what my main duty was? Spooning Peanut Butter to Woody during commercial breaks to make it look like he was talking. Then another intern would take the most ridiculous quotes off the espn forums and voice over woodys dialogue. Woody Paige is brain dead and can only slap his gums and smile. Its sad really. And please no one ask what I caught Skip Bayless doing to Woody.


ahhhh, dude !!
 
Nice appeal to authority.


Everyone makes mistakes, even BB. (See Jackson, Chad, or Stark, Duane)

I was referring specifically to what I quoted. BB certainly makes mistakes. Every person does. The point is, he would never KNOWINGLY do a deal that wasn't in the best interest of his team. To come to a conclusion that implies that is coming to a conclusion that is not based in reality. I think Zues' entire comment was excellent, and he said it better than I could have.
 
It's not really that hard: One in the hand is better than two in the bush
 
3.) There were CLEARLY deals to be made elsewhere. The only question here is why BB didn't wait longer to see if something better came his way.

4.) You seem to think that BB would be stupid, or desperate, enough to buy a threat of "We'll go with Thigpen" and just leap at a deal. BB is a brilliant man at risk management, but he's too stupid to think that Pioli would be bluffing with the "Tyler is my man!" approach? You're buying this, and I'm the naive one? I love this.

3) The most reasonable answer is that the reward of getting something better than #34 was not worth the risk of losing what he already had on the table. Any other explanation involves believing the Belichick didn't act in the best interest of the Patriots. The line of thinking that Belichick cut Pioli a deal to make nice and get preferential treatment from KC in the future has no basis in reality.

4) KC has the #3 pick in the draft and there were/are reasonable FA QBs on the market (not franchise caliber, but enough to babysit for a year or two). Belichick likely suspected that Pioli would keep his offer on the table and maybe even sweeten it as more bidders came online...but getting #34 and having KC take Cassel without renegotiating (could be a time-consuming process) was too good to risk losing. If Belichick played hardball, Pioli got miffed that he was being played and pulled out, and these 3-team deals fizzled out or couldn't get Cassel signed...well that possibility was just not acceptable.
 
4) KC has the #3 pick in the draft and there were/are reasonable FA QBs on the market (not franchise caliber, but enough to babysit for a year or two). Belichick likely suspected that Pioli would keep his offer on the table and maybe even sweeten it as more bidders came online...but getting #34 and having KC take Cassel without renegotiating (could be a time-consuming process) was too good to risk losing. If Belichick played hardball, Pioli got miffed that he was being played and pulled out, and these 3-team deals fizzled out or couldn't get Cassel signed...well that possibility was just not acceptable.

I really think the contract renegotiation played the biggest part in the timing of this deal, the more I think about it. If other teams weren't willing to take Cassel as is (aka, signed for 1-year at 14+ million), then their deals were NEVER going to be done before the roster bonus was due to Vrabel, and likely would have cut far deeper into the Patriots FA period.

KC had the cap space and willingness to take Cassel at his high cost, and offered a deal that was the best truly available (not possibly available) at the time.
 
I was referring specifically to what I quoted. BB certainly makes mistakes. Every person does. The point is, he would never KNOWINGLY do a deal that wasn't in the best interest of his team. To come to a conclusion that implies that is coming to a conclusion that is not based in reality. I think Zues' entire comment was excellent, and he said it better than I could have.

Giving up some value isn't necessarily not in the best interest of the team.


Sometimes its in the best interest to trade down/up despite the fact that you're getting less than equal value back.
 
3) The most reasonable answer is that the reward of getting something better than #34 was not worth the risk of losing what he already had on the table. Any other explanation involves believing the Belichick didn't act in the best interest of the Patriots.

See, your first line, while debatable, is perfectly reasonable in its anchor to logic. The problem is the rest of this post. It's not only dead wrong, it's the same argument that people keep making. I expect much, much better from quality posters such as yourself.

The reality of sports is that some teams trade together a lot because they are comfortable with each other, don't worry about the other guy trying to hose them, etc... When this happens, you don't always get the very best deal possible.

Posters here understand things like sales, 2-for-1 deals, bulk discounts, taking less than top dollar, haggling, cutting a price for a friend, etc... How those posters have ignored that day-to-day reality just to protect BB from a non-attack has been a fascinating thing to watch. It's one thing to disagree with the idea that BB was cutting Pioli a bit of a break. It's another entirely to make the off-the-wall claims that some of you have made regarding it.

The line of thinking that Belichick cut Pioli a deal to make nice and get preferential treatment from KC in the future has no basis in reality.

Of course, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever whether this assertion of yours is true or not. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about above.

4) KC has the #3 pick in the draft and there were/are reasonable FA QBs on the market (not franchise caliber, but enough to babysit for a year or two). Belichick likely suspected that Pioli would keep his offer on the table and maybe even sweeten it as more bidders came online...but getting #34 and having KC take Cassel without renegotiating (could be a time-consuming process) was too good to risk losing. If Belichick played hardball, Pioli got miffed that he was being played and pulled out, and these 3-team deals fizzled out or couldn't get Cassel signed...well that possibility was just not acceptable.

KC wants to make a deal with N.E. DESPITE having the #3 pick in the draft, where either Sanchez or Stafford is expected to be available. BB knows this, but you think he'll believe that Thigpen and/or a Chris Simms type of player is going to be a valid threat to a deal waiting 24-36 hours?
 
The reality of sports is that some teams trade together a lot because they are comfortable with each other, don't worry about the other guy trying to hose them, etc... When this happens, you don't always get the very best deal possible.

Yes, and sometimes, you have to let the other team beat you up a little in a trade, simply because if you always end up on the better side, they stop wanting to deal with you.
 
It's not the same, and you know it. There was no offer already made and you claimed there was. It's not as if there's a gray area here.

Are you kidding me? The fact that they couldn't make an offer is at least as bad as making one and not having the cap room.
Without making the trade, they couldn't sign Bodden. How can it not be a huge problem that you are unable to make an offer?
 
I think it is very interesting that we have (more or less) 2 basic points of view here:

A) BB got less than the best deal as he was doing a deal with a friend (Pioli) and you don't get the best deals when trading with a friend (goodwill and such).

B) Because of FA (clock ticking), Vrabel roster bonus March 1 (clock ticking) and Pats tight against the Cap due to Cassel; BB took the best deal available RIGHT THEN that could be executed immediately. Time pressure and if you have ever scalped tickets 1 hour before game time (at less than optimal value) then you know exactly what I mean - or wait til 5 minutes before game time (to hopefully get a higher price) and risk NO Sale and being stuck with the ticket(s).

But I have not seen mentioned a third possibility. NFL is not just about 'fantasy' football drafts and trades and such. It is about 'wins and losses'. And maybe BB rationalized he would rather take less of an trade value (pick #34) and trade to a mediocre team (KC) than take a better value (1st round pick) and have 2 playoff caliber teams (DEN / Tampa) BOTH possibly get better. Also as NE plays both Denver AND TB this season. Why (potentially) help 2 decent teams get better when you are going to play them both soon? Give the better value to the lousy team and move on with all the cap money freed up to concentrate on the FA market. Is the possibly of gaining 15 spots in the draft worth missing out on some free agents AND also helping two future opponents (possibily) get better?
 
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