If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter...

[Miguel]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Brady did an incremental deal in 2002. He was due to be a FA in 2003.

Brady was signed for the 2002 season at a salary of $375,000. He was going to be an RFA in 2003 and an UFA in 2004 which meant that the Pats could have him for cheap for two seasons (2002/2003) before placing the franchise tag on 2004.

Brady's 2002 deal included an option bonus which had to be picked up by the first day of the 2003 league year.

If Cassel's deal includes an option bonus which has to be picked up by the first day of the 2009 league year, I do not expect the Pats to trade him.

 

[Rob0729]

Most of you folks are day dreaming. We've gone from vilifying

Cassel to thinking of franchising him so we can get a high draft

pick. The best we can hope for from Cassel is that he not lose

most of the games by making mistakes. Cassel has to play steady

and the defense has to play at a high level for the Pats to have

any chance at making the playoffs. Last Sunday's game was a good

starting point.

It is a "What if" thing. I am not betting on anything. I just hope the guy can manage the game and not make mistakes. That is all I am asking.

 

[mgteich]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

I have no words for an analysis that would give Cassel $5M cash now and $14M next year or even $5M next year.

What Cassel has done is to beat one of the worst teams in football (say thank you to O'Neal) as a walk on. He hasn't started since 1999. He now will play two teams which should be finishing at the bottom of the worst division in football.

It is just a matter of opinion, but for me this kind of decision will be made during the bye week, and I don't think Cassel will be handed $5M unless PERHAPS if it is part of a one-year extension at say $1M of salary in 2009. Even then it is an expensive insurance policy. I'd rather sign one veteran now, or perhaps even in the offseason.

I love how franchise tag projections have a way of creeping up exponentially when folks look at tagging a player they don't see as tag worthy...

The tag for QB's THIS year was $10.7M. I have no trouble guaranteeing Cassel franchise money as part of a larger 3 year deal I project someone else paying the bulk of... better yet when I can spread my signing bonus portion out over 4 years in an extension done early... At most he would be here another year. And whenever he was traded he'd be looking at an extension from his new employer to lock him up longer at lower initial cap cost. Plus he'd have several million already banked from 2008-2009. He's only 26 you know...

Brady did an incremental deal in 2002. He was due to be a FA in 2003. I'm not saying extending Cassel is a slam dunk, just its not as off the wall as some here keep opining. Guys trade off for comfort and security all the time, you just don't hear as much about them as you do the ones hell bent on grabbing for the brass ring almost from draft day on.... The tradeoff between Cassel cooperating with a tag and trade and signing an interim incremental deal here are he'd see several million dollars and guarantees of more a whole lot sooner and still see another big payday within a year while still well within a QB's prime...Again, **** happens, just ask Brady and Palmer and Brees and Pennington and...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

I knew that I read $14 million somewhere. Thanks for validating I am not crazy. At least not crazy on this particular issue. Crazy in general is still up for debate.

If Favre retires...and that's always a possibility, and Manning and/or Brady restructure or get extensions done to free up cap that changes.

This is really a silly argument because they won't tag him except to trade him, unless of course Tom suffers some unimaginable setback... but that remains a method of controlling his rights.

It really boils down to risk reward. Cassel can assume the risk for upwards of 18 more games, or he can share the risk. He possibly loses a little potential $$$ in that tradeoff, but potential $$$ is a lot like potential talent - not always realized even if through no one's fault in particular...otherwise why does any guy ever do an early extension...

Anderson struggled a little down the stretch, and he struggled a little out of the gate last week. Thing is he's getting $14M guaranteed now come what may. If we guaranteed Cassel that $14M in a similar incremental deal we'd be on the hook for about $3M for a Brady replacement this season, the same if WE choose to retain him as insurance for 2009 (which I assume we would only do if we had concerns about Brady's availability early in that season) and about $1.25M in dead cap in 2010 and 2011 (or $1.66M per 2009-2010) for whatever we traded him for. If that's a first or package of day one picks over 2 seasons, not a bad tradeoff. Whoever we traded him to would be on the hook for several million more and potentially tens of millions roster/option bonuses are involved. They would likely redo their own deal with him as part of the trade...

I don't know if the CBA allows trade triggered options/bonuses, don't know if it doesn't. It allows teams to craft contracts that increase dramatically if a player performs in a particular state or a team signs someone to a larger contract... But there are ways around most anything with creative language either way, ask Tom condon. An option triggered by starting a certain number of games or being named a starter would not seem terribly untowared to me. % of snaps...implied guarantees... I think Brady Quinn could tell you something about those right about now...

Maybe an option bonus is due in May 2010... or in September 2009 with language that lesser guarantees kick in if it's not exercised including FA in 2010... Or if he takes us to a Superbowl...

All I'm saying here is you can't say with certainty it can't or won't happen when discussing this particular what if.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

I have no words for an analysis that would give Cassel $5M cash now and $14M next year or even $5M next year.

What Cassel has done is to beat one of the worst teams in football (say thank you to O'Neal) as a walk on. He hasn't started since 1999. He now will play two teams which should be finishing at the bottom of the worst division in football.

It is just a matter of opinion, but for me this kind of decision will be made during the bye week, and I don't think Cassel will be handed $5M unless PERHAPS if it is part of a one-year extension at say $1M of salary in 2009. Even then it is an expensive insurance policy. I'd rather sign one veteran now, or perhaps even in the offseason.

But it would appear you do... Reading comprehension is truly a lost art.

This is a hypothetical discussion predicated on his performing like a competent starter over the next several weeks... The short term cap hit on your version is more prohibitive, and likely of far less interest to the player (and ergo usless since they have to sign a deal for one to work...), but not that much moreso than trying to sign that unnamed "veteran" who will surely play like a starter for minimum at 38-39 as Garcia has always been willing to...


BTW in any scenario the $5M signing bonus and 2009 salary would constitute part of a total $14M (for example only) guarantee meaning the remainder would be paid for by the employer he's traded to either as fulfillment of that deal or as part of a longer term extension to manage their own cap once they acquired him...

 

[Rob0729]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

If Favre retires...and that's always a possibility, and Manning and/or Brady restructure or get extensions done to free up cap that changes.

This is really a silly argument because they won't tag him except to trade him, unless of course Tom suffers some unimaginable setback... but that remains a method of controlling his rights.

It really boils down to risk reward. Cassel can assume the risk for upwards of 18 more games, or he can share the risk. He possibly loses a little potential $$$ in that tradeoff, but potential $$$ is a lot like potential talent - not always realized even if through no one's fault in particular...otherwise why does any guy ever do an early extension...

Anderson struggled a little down the stretch, and he struggled a little out of the gate last week. Thing is he's getting $14M guaranteed now come what may. If we guaranteed Cassel that $14M in a similar incremental deal we'd be on the hook for about $3M for a Brady replacement this season, the same if WE choose to retain him as insurance for 2009 (which I assume we would only do if we had concerns about Brady's availability early in that season) and about $1.25M in dead cap in 2010 and 2011 (or $1.66M per 2009-2010) for whatever we traded him for. If that's a first or package of day one picks over 2 seasons, not a bad tradeoff. Whoever we traded him to would be on the hook for several million more and potentially tens of millions roster/option bonuses are involved. They would likely redo their own deal with him as part of the trade...

I don't know if the CBA allows trade triggered options/bonuses, don't know if it doesn't. It allows teams to craft contracts that increase dramatically if a player performs in a particular state or a team signs someone to a larger contract... But there are ways around most anything with creative language either way, ask Tom condon. An option triggered by starting a certain number of games or being named a starter would not seem terribly untowared to me. % of snaps...implied guarantees... I think Brady Quinn could tell you something about those right about now...

Maybe an option bonus is due in May 2010... or in September 2009 with language that lesser guarantees kick in if it's not exercised including FA in 2010... Or if he takes us to a Superbowl...

All I'm saying here is you can't say with certainty it can't or won't happen when discussing this particular what if.

Ummmm... not to be a jerk (ok, I am being a jerk), but when are they going to build a time machine so Favre, Manning, and Brady can go back in time and do as you suggest? You do realize that the franchise tenders except for exclusive right tenders are based on the previous year's salaries not the upcoming year salaries. If Miguel's numbers are correct and I have no reason to doubt him, the franchise tender for Cassel will definitely be around $14-15 million. That number is already locked and unless they change the CBA, isn't going to change. If they do an exclusive rights franchise tender, it could be actually more because then it is based on 2009 salaries.

Again, if Cassel plays ok, there is no discussion. If he plays really well, he is going to want to look for an opportunity to start maybe very likely with his favorite team in the 49ers.

 

[captain stone]

...then I will be (pleasantly) shocked.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Ummmm... not to be a jerk (ok, I am being a jerk), but when are they going to build a time machine so Favre, Manning, and Brady can go back in time and do as you suggest? You do realize that the franchise tenders except for exclusive right tenders are based on the previous year's salaries not the upcoming year salaries. If Miguel's numbers are correct and I have no reason to doubt him, the franchise tender for Cassel will definitely be around $14-15 million. That number is already locked and unless they change the CBA, isn't going to change. If they do an exclusive rights franchise tender, it could be actually more because then it is based on 2009 salaries.

Again, if Cassel plays ok, there is no discussion. If he plays really well, he is going to want to look for an opportunity to start maybe very likely with his favorite team in the 49ers.

Miguel's figure is a projection based on today. Could change tomorrow since you don't require a time machine to restructure a contract in the NFL. There are some limits, but unless they revisited these contracts less than 12 months ago they can restructure or redo/extend anyone any time thereafter up to the last week of the season I believe and have the change reflect on the present season's cap.

 

[Miguel]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Maybe an option bonus is due in May 2010... or in September 2009 with language that lesser guarantees kick in if it's not exercised including FA in 2010...

FWIW - Any option for the 2009 season has to be picked up by the 1st day of the 2009 League Year which should be near the end of February, 2009.

 

[JoeSixPat]

What "we" (I assume you mean the team) would do is largely irrelevant. Cassell's a free agent. He controls his destiny. If he's as good as you say why wouldn't he want to go to a place with a better chance to start?

 

[DaBruinz]

I was thinking if Cassel does a good job -- not Brady like -- but if he comes up with 20 TDs and 16 interceptions. What do we do then?

The league year ends in February and assuming Brady has surgery next month, Brady willl be four months along. Too early to say he's going to be able to play by the beginning of next season. He probably would, but too early to say for sure.

If that happens, I don't think we can let Cassel go. We'd have to franchise him. He'd be overpaid for a year, but what else could we do?

On the other hand, if Cassel does not show that he can step in and do the job, he's probably finished as an NFL player.

This is early to think about before he's even started a game, but our 2009 quarterbacking situation will be a topic on this board by mid-season. so why not start now?

1) the FULL recovery time is 9-12 months. My bet is that Brady will be ready to go the 1st day of training camp.

2) The Patriots have a couple of options with Cassel. The first is to sign him to a two year extension, IF he is willing. If he isn't, then the Pats can put the TRANSITION tag on Cassel, which would give the the right of first refusal. It would also entitle them to any potential compensatory pick in the 2010 draft from having lost Cassel as a UFA.

3) You aren't the first person to bring this up. Its been talked about ad naseum since Brady went down. You're a week behind the times there, Charlie.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Can you please back this statement up?? I see nothing in the CBA that prevents a team from trading a player who is in the last year of his contract.

Miguel - You took his statement out of context. If you look at who he replied to, that person was saying to trade cassel when Brady is healthy next year. Sicilian was correcting that poster.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

FWIW - Any option for the 2009 season has to be picked up by the 1st day of the 2009 League Year which should be near the end of February, 2009.

Who said it was an option FOR the 2009 season... I'm not proposing they let me draft the offer...I'm just saying there is a way to craft a deal to appeal to both sides if they choose to persue that course.

What "we" (I assume you mean the team) would do is largely irrelevant. Cassell's a free agent. He controls his destiny. If he's as good as you say why wouldn't he want to go to a place with a better chance to start?

No offense Joe but if you read the thread you'd at least know one reason might the risk (injury) reward rationale. 1 game down and 17 or 18 to go god willing, and he had a little flash of things that could happen to ruin it all for him just before the end fo the first half of his first start today...

 

[Miguel]

2) The Patriots have a couple of options with Cassel. The first is to sign him to a two year extension, IF he is willing. If he isn't, then the Pats can put the TRANSITION tag on Cassel, which would give the the right of first refusal. It would also entitle them to any potential compensatory pick in the 2010 draft from having lost Cassel as a UFA.

Why would the Pats have over $12 million in cap space taken up by Cassell just so they can have the right of 1st refusal?? The Pats are not going to match any offer that is going to pay Cassel as a starting quarterback.

 

[Miguel]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Who said it was an option FOR the 2009 season...

Did you not write "maybe an option bonus is due in May 2010... or in September 2009 with language that lesser guarantees kick in if it's not exercised including FA in 2010..."

So your option that may be due in September 2009 is for the 2010 season. Yes, that makes a great deal of sense for Cassel to agree to that.

I'm not proposing they let me draft the offer

Given that you did not know how the 2009 franchise numbers are calculated, that is a good thing

...I'm just saying there is a way to craft a deal to appeal to both sides if they choose to persue that course.

Your saying that there is a way does not mean that there is a way.

I just do not see how it is possible for the Patriots to create an offer to Cassel that will pay him as a starter if he becomes the Patriots starter in 2009. I just do not see Cassel if he wants to be a starter in the NFL agreeing to a deal that will pay him a lot less than starter money. This is what all we know from your offer. Cassel gets a $5 million signing bonus in 2008 to extend his contract through the 2011 season. You were the one who brought up Derek Anderson and Brady's contracts. Both of those contracts compelled the team to make a decision on the player before free agency started. Given your precedents, why would Cassel agree to a different type of deal? That is, I seriously doubt that Cassel will agree to an extension that does not force the Pats to pay him a great deal of money before free agency starts in 2009 if they wish to keep his services.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Did you not write "maybe an option bonus is due in May 2010... or in September 2009 with language that lesser guarantees kick in if it's not exercised including FA in 2010..."

So your option that may be due in September 2009 is for the 2010 season. Yes, that makes a great deal of sense for Cassel to agree to that.




Given that you did not know how the 2009 franchise numbers are calculated, that is a good thing


Your saying that there is a way does not mean that there is a way.

I just do not see how it is possible for the Patriots to create an offer to Cassel that will pay him as a starter if he becomes the Patriots starter in 2009. I just do not see Cassel if he wants to be a starter in the NFL agreeing to a deal that will pay him a lot less than starter money. This is what all we know from your offer. Cassel gets a $5 million signing bonus in 2008 to extend his contract through the 2011 season. You were the one who brought up Derek Anderson and Brady's contracts. Both of those contracts compelled the team to make a decision on the player before free agency started. Given your precedents, why would Cassel agree to a different type of deal? That is, I seriously doubt that Cassel will agree to an extension that does not force the Pats to pay him a great deal of money before free agency starts in 2009 if they wish to keep his services.

Then I guess we will have to just agree to disagree. I think it's possible he values the $5M more in hand this season and as much as $14M guaranteed going forward than a shot he's one ugly hit away from never getting with 17 or so more games to go...that's all. Your saying you doubt that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

 

[Miguel]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

Then I guess we will have to just agree to disagree. I think it's possible he values the $5M more in hand this season and as much as $14M guaranteed going forward

You have yet to show how he is going to get the $14 million in guarantee money. Are you saying that the Patriots are going to commit paying Cassel $9 million in 2009???

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree because I feel that your proposed deal is one that will pay Cassel as a backup even if he becomes the Patriots starter.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

I was thinking if Cassel does a good job -- not Brady like -- but if he comes up with 20 TDs and 16 interceptions. What do we do then?

No offense Joe but if you read the thread you'd at least know one reason might the risk (injury) reward rationale. 1 game down and 17 or 18 to go god willing, and he had a little flash of things that could happen to ruin it all for him just before the end fo the first half of his first start today...

No offense taken. I guess I just misread the original post - I thought the thread was about "what if Cassell does a good job for the entire SEASON...

If Cassell comes up with 20 TDs in the first game or two, I agree with you, we'd probably want to offer him some early signing incentive!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Let's get realistic, here. Cassel plays well to a significant extent because he's on the Patriots. Haven't we learned anything from all the players that have moved on to other teams? The coaching staff puts players into positions where they can succeed. Other teams just aren't as good at that and it shows.

O'Connell is considered the QB of the future, not Cassel that most everyone (including me) wanted cut after the joke of a pre-season he had. He's had 2 decent games against below average teams (I think the Jets will struggle to be an 8-8 team). He's avoided the interceptions which has been one of the main objectives. But let's not get carried away here. He badly underthrew a wide-open Randy Moss and, for the most part, is just being asked to manage the game. No rush to sign him long term. Ever.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: If Cassel plays like a competent NFL starter.....

You have yet to show how he is going to get the $14 million in guarantee money. Are you saying that the Patriots are going to commit paying Cassel $9 million in 2009???

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree because I feel that your proposed deal is one that will pay Cassel as a backup even if he becomes the Patriots starter.

Not if it incorporates incentives and escalators...

Look, neither of us is a professional capoligist or savvy agent or NFL GM. There are many ways skin a cat or construct a contract that on some level represents a win win dependent almost exclusively on perspective.

If the Pat's feel 2009 Brady insurance is worth it and Cassel provides that, they will do what is best for the team. If they feel that he represents value on an extension, including solid trade value, they may try to take advatage of that opportunity. If they sign him to a contract with guaranteed money in the last two seasons (2010 and 2011) and additional starter dependent incentives or escalators because they believe they can find someone else to assume that expressly or implicitly guaranteed money while they benefit from it short term (2009), they may persue that course.

If they feel they have already reaped sufficient value from the 7th round pick and developmental time invested in him, they may be satisfied to let him persue the opportunities he's earned in FA.

If he feels that being guaranteed at least $14M over the next 3 seasons (including $5M in hand in 2008) with the implicit guarantee of more if he starts represents sufficient base security to pique his interest, also valuing what that contract says to the league and believing that he will be traded barring being needed as a starter here and more lucratively extended elsewhere at best 2010 by and decently compensated at worst if not, and still be <30 when all is said and done...

Again, I never said it was a slam dunk any of this transpires, just that it's not a foregone conclusion it could not.