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BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
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I think these are pretty good definitions. I use similar ones myself. Tough to argue with these. You got like 6 guys that are low-tier gods. 5-6 really good QB's capable of MVP levels. Than a decent drop off.

A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game.

Rodgers
Mahomes
Brady
Allen
Herbert
Burrow

A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game.

Stafford
Wilson
Watson
Jackson
Dak
Carr
Murray
Ryan

A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best.

Kirk
Jimmy
Tannehill
Mac
Baker
Hurts/Wentz
Goff
Lawrence
Winston

A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player (not enough information for voters to classify) or a veteran who ideally would not start all 17 games.

Fields
Tua
Mills
Wilson
Lance
D Jones

It doesn't matter ...
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

High Priest at Team Bill's Temple
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Mike the Brit

Minuteman Target
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Zo has found his way to the nut store:


He's confirmed one of my hunches. Partly, I'm sure, the bang-it-in-there-behind-the-fullback running game was a product of McDaniels and his very modular approach to offensive design, but it was also Ivan Frears.

Looking at past games, I think that the Pats didn't always get the best out of LeGarrette Blount because they used him as a BenJarvis Green-Ellis type battering ram, when what LGB was really good at was shifting, picking a hole and then using his size and power at the second level. And he almost never got on the field when the defense was spread on third down.

The offense this season is certainly going to be interesting!
 

Vindicate

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Hopefully it fit or you're probably still on the pot with no feeling in your legs.

Oh I clean up quick :rofl:
can you expand on this "is it worse in the NFL" ?

I was wondering if the transition to pro-play for American football is the largest gap between college -> pro, in terms of both skill and scheme. I remember a few years ago there being a lot of talk about how Olinemen were having a harder time than ever adjusting to pro-blocking schemes, and how the jump in expected QB play was huge relative to most sports. The thought being that, this makes drafting difficult - a lot of times a player stands out in college. For some it's that they could rely on athletics easily and then they get to the NFL and realize you need more than just that. For some, it could be that - if that gap in play from college to pros is true - they're having difficulty with the pace/scheme/level of the NFL.

College & NFL are the same but very different in some regards. I've talked about this a few times but the size of the field is the same, 53 1/3 but the hashes are much different. NFL is a little under 20 feet, I forget exactly but roughly like 18.5 - 19 feet. Whereas in college it's double that, like 40 feet.
That makes a big impact on where the ball is spotted. How you might line up. What you might call. Easier to run spread.

I've talked to enough players and read enough about it to know it affects certain players at least in the short term. Mostly WR/TE who work in the middle of the field. Spacing is a huge part of football so you can imagine it might mess with someone a little initially. The lines are a little blurred today with the rule changes, more teams running college stuff. Its still a man vs man equation in the NFL. Man vs space in college.

It matters a lot. It's something rarely brought up if at all that's a big difference.

Seems like you're speaking to what I'm discussing, and even bringing up field differences - I didn't even consider that. I could see that being huge in offenses that were like the Brady days and timing is everything.

As far as RPO. The NFL is still adapting and getting used used the RPO. Make no mistake there are some wonderful coaches in the league but it's a thick shell that's tough to penetrate in terms of change, new ideas, new coaches. We see a ton retreads with little change when you think about how vaste football is.
So basically in college you can take a few steps (3) while in the league it's one. You really have to be creative with design and on point with timing. Like we know why we wouldn't run any with Harry. So teams might be afraid of penalties but there's no evidence to suggest refs are looking for this. And even if the throw a flag make them throw it every time. We've seen DB's and DL take advantage of physical play outside and other things. you have something that works why not take advantage? It's not against the rules.

It'd be interesting to not how much penalties affect a college-pro transition. I don't know how you'd measure that, but especially with DB's, you have to be so damn good and smart. You have to really learn how to be as physical as possible in a position that is under a microscope. This is why I loved Gilmore. Nearly flawless technique. Rarely did he have a great pass defended where I was holding my breath, waiting for a flag to come out. Every time he played the ball, it was too damn clean to dispute.

I want to inject this now - I do not watch much college ball. So take my points more as posed questions. And thank you for always answering in length!

I have no stats on this but I would have to believe you have a higher % of a positive play with RPO vs a regular run, especially one between the tackles. There's just so much built in that helps you succeed vs a normal run. I mean how often do we see an "illegal man" downfield on regular runs not called.
Teams should run more rpo with slants bc of how easy it is to complete and the yac opportunity. Tua built a career around that play.

There's plenty of room for growth there and NFL teams should be pushing the envelope not dusting off the old playbook.

I'm personally getting excited for seeing how defenses transition into attacking this - and seeing what the scheme trends out to be. One of the biggest things I've seen is actually a player transition - LB's who have to do it all. Be fast, drop into coverage, etc. - it'd be cool to hear how scheme has changed. Lighter fronts have definitely popped up.

It's tough bc Bill has supreme job security. The NFL is a turnover machine. It's a little tough to compare and contrast between someone rebuilding from scratch vs Bill but definitely useful.

A huge huge huge thing in the NFL. Not sure if other pro sports are the same, but owners do not have patience in the sport that, of all, demands patience. So many coaches, so many philosophies, so many moving parts at once. Bill said that you can't judge a HC until at least year 3 of their job. Changing the organization of a football team is a systemic undertaking.

Again there should be a lot more talk, accountability and transparency in the draft space. Comparing GM's, media, draft geeks. I welcome an unearthing here.

There's so many layers here.

Coaching matters. A lot. Especially when the margins are super thin.

First off let me say how wrong I was about Tomlin. I admitted this last year when AB was going nuclear and that only grows stronger. AB, Ben, Harrison, Bell and on and on and he just kept winning. Hats off.

I think we all hated Tomlin to the point where we don't give him enough credit. I kinda feel the same about John Harbaugh.

I'm still very much player > coach. You wont see a good or even great coach move the needle on a bad team but we've seen good-great QB's or teams drag guys like McCarthy, Pete, Rex and others to the playoffs. But yea they matter. Back in the day players were soldiers in some cases. Literally responded to orders. Today players would go into trigger tweeting crying from their mansion. The chemistry has to be there today.

Players win games, coaches lose them. One of the few constant truths in this world.

Look into who's good drafting between RDS 4-7. Who's good in the media? Does any team draft one position better than everyone else (like Pitt and WR)

Almost anything would be useful bc there's still so much to learn in that space.

I wish I had the gusto to do research on this stuff like I do city budgets. Because there is a dearth of analysis that is actually worthwhile in the NFL while sexy stats inflate viewership. A historical and analytical compendium of drafting would be stellar. Also, a book that details the progression of the NFL offense by examining the transformation of the fullback position, but I'm biased about that one :)

Sorry about the late response. Life has been hectic. Thanks again for your responses.
 

VJCPatriot

Pro Bowl Player
This is literally the STUPIDEST thing I've ever read?

Brady didn't elevate a no talent BUST in N'Keal Harry but somehow Aaron Rodgers elevated a STUD WR in Devante Adams? WTF is that guy smoking? Does he even read what he has written down?


Devante Adams has made 5 pro bowls and 2 all-pro selections. N'Keal Harry will be flipping burgers in 2 years. It feels like any idiot can be a 'sports writer'. How long did 'the cliff' theory get spouted for years by Max Kellerman before he had to eat crow?

So do the people who cover sports intentionally write the stupidest thing they can think of, or does it just come naturally? I'm genuinely confused.

@BaconGrundleCandy - You seriously need to start that NFL draft website. At least you could counter the stupidity somewhat by putting some real information out there.
 
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patfanken

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Over the rest of the summer probably the most overlooked story is going to be the changes the Pats are going to make in their running game and schemes.

I think Zo hit it right on the money. The talent they they have on the OL and skill positions dictate that they make the change. One of Bill's best qualities is that he is not afraid to make changes based on the make up of his team. How it will work out is anyone's guess, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I'll be particularly interested in how Pierre Strong looks in this kind of offense.

Now I come from the Pats old power blocking scheme which was creating double teams at the point of attack with pulling G's and FB's kicking out at good angles. On the plus side there are very specific target spots for the RBs and even on plays that are defended well any losses are rare.

On the other hand in zone schemes there isn't as much pulling or double teams, more gap choices for the RB's and while the positive plays are more explosive, losses occur more frequently than in the power game. Like ALL things in football, there are pluses and minuses with EVERY scheme or system, which is why you pick one that you hope fits the personnel you have best.

This will be very interesting to see when they get to joint practices.
 

SlowGettingUp

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Like ALL things in football, there are pluses and minuses with EVERY scheme or system, which is why you pick one that you hope fits the personnel you have best.

I'm interested in the interaction between the new scheme (if there is indeed one) and the passing game - specifically play-action passes and RPOs. Will wider splits and more space also create better opportunities for players like Smith? They could potentially put a super-fast RB (Strong) plus three very speedy WRs (Agholor, Thornton and Nixon) on the field at once. Have to believe that will cause the safeties to play well back, so paradoxically a 4+ yard gain might be easier to come by than we saw running against an always-packed box last year.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
Mention this a lot bc it's important and what really separates teams in college along with kickers.

 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
This is literally the STUPIDEST thing I've ever read?

Brady didn't elevate a no talent BUST in N'Keal Harry but somehow Aaron Rodgers elevated a STUD WR in Devante Adams? WTF is that guy smoking? Does he even read what he has written down?


Devante Adams has made 5 pro bowls and 2 all-pro selections. N'Keal Harry will be flipping burgers in 2 years. It feels like any idiot can be a 'sports writer'. How long did 'the cliff' theory get spouted for years by Max Kellerman before he had to eat crow?

So do the people who cover sports intentionally write the stupidest thing they can think of, or does it just come naturally? I'm genuinely confused.

@BaconGrundleCandy - You seriously need to start that NFL draft website. At least you could counter the stupidity somewhat by putting some real information out there.
I couldn't believe it when I read it. Unbelievable lol. Such a specific and weird comparison lol.

I want to buy the old nepatdraft site that's been dead for years. I actually wrote for it for a short while. I'm not a writer more my opinion/analysis of who & why someone was a Pats draft target. No luck though. I'll reach out again someday
 

BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
Over the rest of the summer probably the most overlooked story is going to be the changes the Pats are going to make in their running game and schemes.

I think Zo hit it right on the money. The talent they they have on the OL and skill positions dictate that they make the change. One of Bill's best qualities is that he is not afraid to make changes based on the make up of his team. How it will work out is anyone's guess, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I'll be particularly interested in how Pierre Strong looks in this kind of offense.

Now I come from the Pats old power blocking scheme which was creating double teams at the point of attack with pulling G's and FB's kicking out at good angles. On the plus side there are very specific target spots for the RBs and even on plays that are defended well any losses are rare.
Actually I think this was brought up a good deal early on Ken. That and the "streamlining" on offense have probably been the two biggest topics since draft night. When it kinda started with the uber-athletic guard and Strong who's a very specific back.

One thing I'm really interested in seeing is if we have Strange pulling/traping as much as we did Thuney. He seems like the perfect / obvious replacement for Joe. One reason is bc we moved Wynn to the right side. They're are two most athletic OL'm along be a decent much imo so it makes sense to utilize that speed, quickness and agility.

I'm still of the belief that we have a top 10 caliber OL. Maybe some think that's crazy but I like our chances if we're healthy.
On the other hand in zone schemes there isn't as much pulling or double teams, more gap choices for the RB's and while the positive plays are more explosive, losses occur more frequently than in the power game. Like ALL things in football, there are pluses and minuses with EVERY scheme or system, which is why you pick one that you hope fits the personnel you have best.
This is where good coaching comes in. Creating that mentality. I've heard many coaches talk about this specific point. You have to stay mentally strong, committed and believe in what you do. Believe/Belief comes up a lot.
More to coaching - some of these plays are tough to practice. You don't want to cut your guys so again the mental reps and coaching points are very important in that short term to really make a change in play, impact with players.

It's a whole offense though. Shanahan and McVay do a great job at using WR/TE to help their OL gain better angles for example and hit that important first step(s) So it'll be interesting to see who steps up as a the big blocker at WR & TE. Henry will always give you solid effort but isn't great, decent but never been a standpoint, good enough on most plays. Smith was terrible back there.

Speaking of Smith I'm hoping we give him some easy stuff bc that's what he lived off in Tenn. McDaniels isn't changing his offense for Smith and I don't blame him much but he could have been more flexible and given him some leak routes, bootleg action - just but him in space more. It was clear he wasn't 100% comfortable.
This will be very interesting to see when they get to joint practices.
Those are the best way to get your team going nowadays imo. Everything is amped up. You find out so much more than when you're with your own guys.

I'm interested in the interaction between the new scheme (if there is indeed one) and the passing game - specifically play-action passes and RPOs. Will wider splits and more space also create better opportunities for players like Smith? They could potentially put a super-fast RB (Strong) plus three very speedy WRs (Agholor, Thornton and Nixon) on the field at once. Have to believe that will cause the safeties to play well back, so paradoxically a 4+ yard gain might be easier to come by than we saw running against an always-packed box last year.
I've been calling more RPO's since draft night / we drafted Mac. It's really simple. The league hasn't caught to defending them. Screens are becoming useless. Too much speed and size on the edges nowadays from edge to corner. But throwing the ball downfield is very effective. Teams are scared off bc of OL'm downfield but it's not called and should be used until it is. Refs haven't and probably won't crack down until it's brought up in the off season. Until then exploit legally for everything it's worth. If that's not enough we have a QB whos excellent at the RPO game. That's Mac's bag. Quick passing, slants, deep in cuts. That might be might we're getting out of the offense and all the talk. Or something along those lines on offense. Between adjustments/options there can be multiple options, like 4-5 or more.

Idk I'm thinking we're getting a healthy dose of gap/power with OZ mixed in. Maybe more than usual in some spots. Very curious if we make a HUGE jump in that department.

One guy I'm pumped for is Rham. I absolutely love Harris. He's one of my favorite players in the league. If he was given 300+ touches a year he'd be 1400/10/4.5 guy. Rham looks like a beast though. He lost weight and looks like he's been putting in the work. Supposedly he's got first team reps and has been getting work in the backfield. Really hoping that translates bc along with pass pro improvement would help separate himself as a real RB1. I really hope we give him some option routes in the MOF. He has some shake to him. Definitely getting more touches though. We have some real talent in that RB room.

Supposedly Agholor and Barmore have been looking well too. Barmore physically and Agholor on the field.
 

patfanken

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I've been calling more RPO's since draft night / we drafted Mac. It's really simple. The league hasn't caught to defending them. Screens are becoming useless. Too much speed and size on the edges nowadays from edge to corner. But throwing the ball downfield is very effective. Teams are scared off bc of OL'm downfield but it's not called and should be used until it is. Refs haven't and probably won't crack down until it's brought up in the off season. Until then exploit legally for everything it's worth. If that's not enough we have a QB whos excellent at the RPO game. That's Mac's bag. Quick passing, slants, deep in cuts. That might be might we're getting out of the offense and all the talk. Or something along those lines on offense. Between adjustments/options there can be multiple options, like 4-5 or more.
I'm finding it hard to see the Pats run the RPO much if at all. Given that the Pats will likely be a 50-50 run/pass team the play action pass (PAP) would seem to fit better. HOWEVER one advantage of the RPO look is that the QB doesn't have to turn his back to the LOS before refocusing downfield. Good PAP fakes require the QB to turn his back giving him much less time to find his receivers.

What I could see happening is for the Pats to use more of what we used to call sprint out passing looks where the QB sets up behind the OT. That would take advantage of Mac's quickness and speed to attack the outside quickly with routes that flood the 3 outside zones with shallow drag, and backside screens off that look, It would be a different look every now and then Just a thought
 

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