Widespread Hazing Problem in NFL

[Fencer]

What gets me about the expensive dinners and so on is that it implies a culture of spending for the sake of being able to spend -- i.e., conspicuous consumption even among your peer players. This is not healthy, all things considered.

Some years back, there was a story saying that a star NBA player needed to spend $2 million or so per year to keep up appearances. WTF? I think they both had ghetto-background guys and Ray Allen types quoted in the story.

 

[Brady'sArmy]

It's apparent that there is a tacit acceptance of hazing in the NFL and it's probably internalized by some as a necessary part of the initiation process.

But what Incognito was doing to Martin is decidedly not hazing. It's bullying. Hazing should good nature collective punishment aimed at fostering camaraderie amongst the new players by posing common adversity. Singling out one specific player for extended maliciousness is bullying.

 

[PatsDeb]

There's really very little the league can do. What are they gonna do? Fine some players who took a bunch of rookies out to dinner and made the rookie pay? They can definitely go after Incognito for making threats and racist remarks but when it comes to the rookies paying for dinners, they really have very little power to regulate what players do in their off time (barring, of course, anything that actually violates laws).

They could put out the word (or a Memo - Roger Goodell is good for those) that this is not allowed any more and at least say they are setting up an anonymous hotline for rookies or anyone else to call who becomes aware of continued out-of-control behavior. Not saying anyone would call, but the threat might put a big dent in it. Goodell is also good at taking away draft picks - a threat to the team of that would probably put a big dent in it too.

 

[Gronkandez]

FWIW I've done a 180 since yesterday. Yesterday I thought Incognito was going hard as were the Dolphins. Today, I'm thinking to myself, this stuff must happen all the time in the NFL so you can't single this guy and the team out. Don't get me wrong, I want Incognito to be banned for life, because in general he's a dirtbag but he's not alone.

Think about crazy Steve Smith on the Panthers. Dude punched a teammate in the face and broke his jaw. You think he never told anyone he was going to kill them? You think he never made a mother comment? Of COURSE HE HAS and so have numberous other meatheads across the league. Especially lineman. This stuff is commonplace and there are many players coming out and justifying it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying it's rampant in the league so IMO you can't really single out Incognito...well except that he was stupid enough to put those words into a voicemail and text. Maybe he should be punished for his stupidity.

 

[Deus Irae]

Hazing is not a problem. Taking things too far is a problem. As is the case with many activities, today's american society seems unable to understand the difference.

 

[Froob]

From the glimpses published at Gronkowski's Las Vegas bar tabs a while back, I believe most of it goes into expensive booze -- $300 bottles of champagne, etc.

Well damn. Personally, I'm more than happy with my $8 bottle of champagne.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Martin had to fork over $15,000 for the veterans to go to Las Vegas.

It doesn't matter how much it is.

When an Incognito extorts kids in grade school for their "only 50 cents" milk money it is wrong then too.

Now I feel guilty....how can I atone for all the lunch money I extorted in the 6th grade?

 

[PatriotsReign]

FWIW I've done a 180 since yesterday. Yesterday I thought Incognito was going hard as were the Dolphins. Today, I'm thinking to myself, this stuff must happen all the time in the NFL so you can't single this guy and the team out. Don't get me wrong, I want Incognito to be banned for life, because in general he's a dirtbag but he's not alone.

Think about crazy Steve Smith on the Panthers. Dude punched a teammate in the face and broke his jaw. You think he never told anyone he was going to kill them? You think he never made a mother comment? Of COURSE HE HAS and so have numberous other meatheads across the league. Especially lineman. This stuff is commonplace and there are many players coming out and justifying it.

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying it's rampant in the league so IMO you can't really single out Incognito...well except that he was stupid enough to put those words into a voicemail and text. Maybe he should be punished for his stupidity.

But it IS wrong....so it's ok to say it.

 

[Gronkandez]

But it IS wrong....so it's ok to say it.

It's certainly not ideal, but it's a culture that exists in the NFL and many of the players are ok with it. What if all of the Dolphins lineman, including many of who are African American, say Incognito is a great leader and although he uses foul language it's always done in such a way as to teach the younger players and make them tougher, better players?

Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?

I'm certainly not condoning Incognitos actions and I hope he goes down hard bc I don't like him, I just don't think his voicemail language is all that different from any other team.

 

[patfanken]

Not to diminish the impact of the hazing as practiced by Ritchie Ingcognito, I think that this crap is a lot less pervasive in the league now than it was "back in the day" I doubt very much if it exists at all across the full spectrum of the Pats roster. More likely you'd find it sprinkled around individual position groupings.

The offensive linemen would seem to be the kind of insular group that would spawn the kind of "hazing" that we are talking about. Why is it surprising. We see bits of it across the entire work force where the "new guy" buys lunch or has some other entry task assigned before they become integrated into the unit. Within reason this kind of group activity can be positive and promote the overall production of the unit. And just like in most things in life, when its over done, it becomes a detriment to the group.

I think this is really less of an issue that its being led on to be. Its not some kind of pestilence or epidemic. Clearly what happened in Miami went over the line and its good that its been uncovered. Just because there are a few priests that were pedophiles, its unfair to think all priests are pedophiles . In the same way that just because this case of "hazing" was hateful and damaging doesn't mean that all forms of "hazing" are non-productive.

 

[yukon cornelius]

It all comes down to how it goes down.....


If it is a "haha" rookie hair cuts & fight songs at training camp, and the rookies are willing participants willing to laugh at themselves, bonding with the team, no forced participation and coercion - it can be healthy

for every rookie who buys his unit dinner (one where they DON'T order bottles of champagne and caviar), there's a veteran like John Lackey who will quietly pick up the rookies tab when he's out to dinner with his family



the problem is when rookies are forced/coerced/mistreated into compliance, when the behavior gets reckless/dangerous/out of control, or when RI totally steps over the line


we did skits when i coached HS....each class of players roasted and roached the coaching staff & other players.....it was a blast, and it was a great way to end camp......the same for MOST NFL teams with haircuts & fight songs.....it is a nod to the old days for sure, and if done well, it is healthy


hazing is a lot like pornography.....hard to define, but you know it when you see it

 

[yukon cornelius]

Not to diminish the impact of the hazing as practiced by Ritchie Ingcognito, I think that this crap is a lot less pervasive in the league now than it was "back in the day" I doubt very much if it exists at all across the full spectrum of the Pats roster. More likely you'd find it sprinkled around individual position groupings.

The offensive linemen would seem to be the kind of insular group that would spawn the kind of "hazing" that we are talking about. Why is it surprising. We see bits of it across the entire work force where the "new guy" buys lunch or has some other entry task assigned before they become integrated into the unit. Within reason this kind of group activity can be positive and promote the overall production of the unit. And just like in most things in life, when its over done, it becomes a detriment to the group.

I think this is really less of an issue that its being led on to be. Its not some kind of pestilence or epidemic. Clearly what happened in Miami went over the line and its good that its been uncovered. Just because there are a few priests that were pedophiles, its unfair to think all priests are pedophiles . In the same way that just because this case of "hazing" was hateful and damaging doesn't mean that all forms of "hazing" are non-productive.

it happens with the patriots, but the CULTURE is different

fight songs, hair cuts, carrying equipment......it is done as a nod to the 'old days' and tradition, but it doesn't seem like anyone is FORCED......they do it all with a smile, without feeling like they are being taken advantage of


as Bruschi said, when it became a situation where rookies were being taken advantage of, BB stepped in and squashed it

 

[shmessy]

It's certainly not ideal, but it's a culture that exists in the NFL and many of the players are ok with it. What if all of the Dolphins lineman, including many of who are African American, say Incognito is a great leader and although he uses foul language it's always done in such a way as to teach the younger players and make them tougher, better players?

Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?

I'm certainly not condoning Incognitos actions and I hope he goes down hard bc I don't like him, I just don't think his voicemail language is all that different from any other team.

"Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?"
----------

Many people have repeated this crap the past day or so.

Gronkandez, when will you realize that this went OUTSIDE of the lockerroom???

.

 

[VrabelJr]

Defending the expensive dinners just because NFL players "make a lot of money" is ridiculous. When you look at the average NFL career span combined with the tax assessment of 50% depending on the state these kids don't make very much.

 

[groganbootleg]

18k? Please. That's like $50 for the average person. Those rookies don't give a **** about that measly money when they'll make it back in a day.

Not even close. Lets do some basic math.

If you are a rookie making $400K/year that probably comes out to $250k after taxes, agent, etc. An $18K dinner tab (which might not be the only one you're stuck with that year) is about 8% of your take home, lets round that to an even 10%.

You make $60K/yr. Do you think its reasonable for you to pick up a $6,000 dinner tab for your boss and workmates because you're the new guy? I wouldn't.

 

[Gronkandez]

"Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?"
----------

Many people have repeated this crap the past day or so.

Gronkandez, when will you realize that this went OUTSIDE of the lockerroom???

.

You'll have to find someone else to get into an all-day argument, over meaningless details, with. Is Andy Johnson around?

 

[primetime]

This. I fail to see the difference between forcing people to pay for a meal or a trip to Vegas with the implication of negative consequences for not complying and beating up a kid for his lunch money.

This argument downplays it severely. It's less like stealing milk money and more like having a middle manager at your workplace garnishing a substantial proportion of your earnings... but even that's understating it, since $18k compounds in interest or investments a lot faster than smaller amounts of money.

The systematic coerced redistribution of these wages, especially of that magnitude, to players with greater seniority is a huge violation of labor rights that should be investigated fully by the NFLPA. And if they can't do it, the federal government should step in because it's a big, big issue.

The hair stuff is just silly and harmless, though.

Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?

This is really, incredibly stupid. But the answer is yes, because football players are workers. Workers in this country and in the rest of the industrialized world have rights (though in this country, we're getting dangerously close to rolling those back and attitudes like this don't help).

 

[Gronkandez]

This is really, incredibly stupid. But the answer is yes, because football players are workers. Workers in this country and in the rest of the industrialized world have rights (though in this country, we're getting dangerously close to rolling those back and attitudes like this don't help).

What is incredibly stupid, the question? I don't think standards should be the same. I don't know how they could be, but at the same time I don't know where you draw the line. Can you use racial slurs and make death threats on the field but not off the field?

 

[shmessy]

You'll have to find someone else to get into an all-day argument, over meaningless details, with. Is Andy Johnson around?

LOL. "Meaningless details". YOU are the one who wrote "Should we have the same rules inside a football locker room and on the playing field as we do in Corporate amercia?"

Everyone knows that Incognito carried this OUTSIDE the lockerroom. The phone message was made to martin in California.

It's obvious what you are doing at this point if that is your only response to cogent facts.

Facts were given. And that is your response.

 

[primetime]

Can you use racial slurs and make death threats on the field but not off the field?

No. Why is that even a question?