Where Is The Pats Deep Threat At????

[coolguy]

I'm not seeing it personally.

Brady had more attempts this season (2012) than in any other year, and the numbers have grown substantially from the offense's record pace set in the 2007 season.

2012---637

2011---611

2010---492

2009---565

2007---578

If anything, the Moss years proved to be the most pass-happy years that we've seen, and those years fail in comparison to his attempts now. That is also taking into acct the use of hurry up, which probably averages at about 10 more plays per game on average usage.

I think the average ratio has been approximately 59/41 pass to run in Brady's years, although this is a number that I remember from a discussion either last year, or the year before.

The ratio this season was 56/44 pass once again, so even though it looks like we're rushing more significantly some of the numbers are skewed due to the fact that there are more actual plays per season due to the hurry up.

Either way, the team showed more balance which was definitely needed. The point is that I'm not necessarily sure that we can definitely take away the premise that they are now moving to a 3 WR, run-first attack though.

New England Patriots 2012 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

One can say that brady could be suffering froma dead arm, but i don't want to go that far.

 

[Ring 6]

Gronk and hernandez are superior versions of Benjamin watson, graham and Fauria.

So they are better than other TEs. OK, gotcha. How does that mean signing 2 TEs for 8 years means they are becoming a 3 WR offense?

 

[ausbacker]

It's so painful to know Jennings and Wallace could have been Patriots through the draft.

 

[supafly]

ugh, this again.

First of all, the offense is predicated on short to medium routes, with lots of rubs and slants, with the occasional post routes by our TEs. It is the nature of the offense and it isn't going to change to a more vertical style.

Second, Brady does not have a good deep ball. Never has. It's just not his strength. And pleas dont point to 2007, because Moss comes around once in a lifetime. How many catches did he make in double and triple coverage? Overthrown, underthrown balls? Tons.

Wether it was bethel johnson, or stallworth, we have had burners on this team and they were marginal contributors.

What the Pats need is a physical, go get em receiver that could make plays in the medium range routes. A Boldin type, for example. Or a dez bryant-type with his head screwed on right. Now that is something that has been missing in the past decade.

Couldn't agree more.

Many here felt like Llyod was going to be that receiver, but wasn't used in that role too much.

The search continues, but it won't be easy.

Still, in seeing the fact that we were within the last 2 teams last year, and the last 3 teams this year, I am not totally buying into the fact that we can't win without the kind of WR that everyone wants; especially seeing that we were inside the BAL 35 yd line (basically FG range on most given days) EIGHT times on Sunday and only came away with 13 points. That isn't going to happen too often.

The game was lost in the last 14 minutes in the last quarter, and that was more about the lack of defensive pass coverage than it was the sputtering on offense. If the defense holds, the offense very well could have still won the game, no doubt about it. It's a team game and both sides are to blame on some level, but we still need to figure out how to win close defensive battles too.

 

[coolguy]

So they are better than other TEs. OK, gotcha. How does that mean signing 2 TEs for 8 years means they are becoming a 3 WR offense?

Because hernandez can roll out into the slot and wreck the secondary.

 

[Ring 6]

Are you counting Hernandez as a WR here? yes

Hernandez isnt a WR.
That would be like taking a dominant fighter who is the quickest and most agile in his class with average at best power for his class and moving him down 2 weight classes so everyone he fights is much quicker, and he isn't much more powerful. Bad plan all around.

 

[supafly]

One can say that brady could be suffering froma dead arm, but i don't want to go that far.

I just think that the offense is tailored to everyone's strengths, and is predicated on more of a mental, chess-type game that takes advantages of personnel, mismatches, and scheme designs.

Brady is able to get rid of the ball quicker, with a high percentage of accurate throws and completions. The receivers are able to take advantage of mismatches in one-on-one situations via the middle of the field, and we have developed a better balance by running the ball more, and effectively to boot (more important).

It not only tailors Brady's strengths, but it also makes up for lack of strengths too. This type of offense takes something off the offensive line at times, allows Brady to get hit less, cuts down on turnovers, and hides his deep ball weaknesses.

 

[coolguy]

I just think that the offense is tailored to everyone's strengths, and is predicated on more of a mental, chess-type game that takes advantages of personnel, mismatches, and scheme designs.

Brady is able to get rid of the ball quicker, with a high percentage of accurate throws and completions. The receivers are able to take advantage of mismatches in one-on-one situations via the middle of the field, and we have developed a better balance by running the ball more, and effectively to boot (more important).

It not only tailors Brady's strengths, but it also makes up for lack of strengths too. This type of offense takes something off the offensive line at times, allows Brady to get hit less, cuts down on turnovers, and hides his deep ball weaknesses.

You don't think the passing game requires too many things to go right in order to succeed? The offense looks harder than any other offense in the league. It's strange to see brady with no pressure on him unable to find anyone open.


Or maybe teams have caught up to the patriots short passing game.

 

[Ring 6]

You don't think the passing game requires too many things to go right in order to succeed? The offense looks harder than any other offense in the league. It's strange to see brady with no pressure on him unable to find anyone open.


Or maybe teams have caught up to the patriots short passing game.

We just had one of the top 5 seasons of any offense in NFL history.
We scored 41 points in round 1.
We lost because we stalled inside the 25, 6 trips, 13 points, after rolling up 428 yards of offense.
I don't know what you are watching.

 

[coolguy]

We just had one of the top 5 seasons of any offense in NFL history.
We scored 41 points in round 1.
We lost because we stalled inside the 25, 6 trips, 13 points, after rolling up 428 yards of offense.
I don't know what you are watching.

ThaT'S EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN!!

You don't think the short passing game require perfect precision and perfect route running?
All it takes is one thing to throw the synchronization of the offense and the whole play is busted. The jets figured that out in 2010

The long ball is much easier to execute.

 

[DocHoliday]

Good teams can take away the short passing game and force Brady to do riskier, harder outside throws.

Nothing new here

 

[supafly]

Good teams can take away the short passing game and force Brady to do riskier, harder outside throws.

Nothing new here

Very true.

That said, I'm not totally sure that BAL did that as effectively as many are claiming. It isn't everyday that you see Brady make the kind of mental error that he made at the end of the half, which should have led to at least another play at the EZ, if not two, before the FG attempt.

It very well could have been 17-7. Even still, it was 13-7 and the Pats looked to be in control.

Had Welker caught the 3rd down ball right in his hands on the opening drive of the 3rd quarter, it could have been a whole different game. Actually, it certainly would've been a whole different game.

There's also the wind factor, which forced us to punt 2x inside the BAL 35 yd line, which is normally FG range. The fact that they racked up a ton of yardage and had the ball inside BAL's 35 a whopping 8 times says a lot to me in terms of having success moving the ball, just not cashing it in.

With 14 minutes remaining in the game, the score was still 14-13. So for 75% of the game the Pats were right there. It wasn't until the defensive collapse which allowed Baltimore to start to control the game...then came the unlucky bounces and plays, tipped balls, etc, which are usually a staple of Patriot losses.

In other words, I agree that a deep threat would be nice, but I also think it's a bit unrealistic in terms of allowing Belichick to keep the team together in its proper way + retain some of our key FA's.

Anything can happen. We can potentially double up at WR (not likely, but possible) by trading down for an extra pick or two, and we can also pick up a FA WR, a UDFA, and/or another team's castoff WR. There has to be a viable way to utilize some type of more physical, faster WR's talents in this offense without breaking the bank or setting us back cap-wise.

Or, we can make as many improvements as possible in other areas, and also remain extremely competitive which will allow us yet another playoff possibility next winter, which may be more likely. I'm hoping they find a way to do both by lucking out on a WR that isn't exactly bank breaking.

 

[manxman2601]

Where is our deep threat? Try Mobile.

An analysis of Markus Wheaton of Oregon State at the Senior Bowl:

Markus Wheaton: Wheaton had initial trouble getting on top of the defender with his first two reps in the cone drill. He also was a little rough through his breaks on an out-and-up, but earned separation with his speed up the boundary. Unlike several of the receivers on either squad, Wheaton has a knack for getting position on a defender after his break. He made a nice catch on a slant, got strong position on a hook after his break, and for the second time in two days, displayed good technique on a deep fade where he caught the ball over his shoulder at the boundary. On five-on-sevens, Wheaton engaged in some trash talking with Washington corner Desmond Trufant, who asked the coaches to allow him to cut in line and take on the receiver. Wheaton promptly spanked Trufant on a deep streak up the right sideline with a nice move early in the route to slide outside and then buy position. Mike Glennon made the deep throw, hitting Wheaton in stride.

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/01/23/senior-bowl-day-two-skill-player-notables/

We've apparently shown previous interest in him, he's a team captain, looks good value as a 2nd round pick, beat Deanthony Thomas in a 100m sprint, had over 1,000 yards and 90 catches last season and when you watch him interviewed, he's both articulate and humble. Would have no problem buying in to the Patriot-way.

Markus Wheaton vs UCLA 2012 - YouTube

Markus Wheaton Post Beaver Win Over BYU - YouTube

 

[Rob0729]

If you read Bedard's column today, his conclusion was that the offense suffered not from a lack of a deep threat, but a lack of a Gronk. Both the passing game AND the running game suffered from the lack of Gronk.

On offense, we heard all season about how the Patriots were going to be better because they were more committed to the run, and would be able to run when it was needed late in the season. Against the weaker, less physical teams in the regular season? Sure.

When it counted, the Patriots failed big-time. For the first time all season, the Patriots didn’t record a single explosive run of more than 10 yards. They had averaged 3.4 in the previous 17 games.

What made it even worse is that Baltimore absolutely dared the Patriots to run, and they couldn’t and wouldn’t. The Ravens played just three snaps of base defense, and their nickel (five defensive backs) the rest of the time. This is when the Patriots were supposed to punish the opponent for doing that. They ran 22 times against the Ravens’ nickel and averaged 3.6 yards per carry. That’s fairly pathetic.

So that means the Ravens could take care of the run while in their preferred pass defense. Tom Brady might as well have had one hand tied behind his back.

A team has to make an opponent respect the run. The Patriots never did. The big reason? The subpar run blocking from their three tight ends: Aaron Hernandez, Michael Hoomanawanui, and, to a lesser extent, Daniel Fells (who held his own). Hernandez and Hoomanawanui took turns getting rag-dolled up front.

Boy, did the Patriots miss their ultimate physical offensive weapon, tight end Rob Gronkowski, in the most physical game of the season. In the games before Gronkowski got hurt, the Patriots averaged 4.1 explosive runs per game. After: 2.1.

In their biggest game, the Patriots failed to measure up - Patriots - Boston.com

Gronk is just as effective as most deep threats to stop the better defenses in the league from shutting down this offense (probably more so because he is a complete TE and a huge force in the running game). What the Pats need is a difference maker on offense, not specifically a deep threat. They have that in Gronk. They just need to keep him healthy.

 

[DocHoliday]

If you read Bedard's column today, his conclusion was that the offense suffered not from a lack of a deep threat, but a lack of a Gronk. Both the passing game AND the running game suffered from the lack of Gronk.



In their biggest game, the Patriots failed to measure up - Patriots - Boston.com

Gronk is just as effective as most deep threats to stop the better defenses in the league from shutting down this offense (probably more so because he is a complete TE and a huge force in the running game). What the Pats need is a difference maker on offense, not specifically a deep threat. They have that in Gronk. They just need to keep him healthy.

Hopefully Ballard is a superior blocker. Looks like we were all delusionally high on Hooman.

 

[Bhelmet]

Probably already been said (I can't read 16 pages of posts - read a few though), but losing Gronk hurts big time in a game like this. We never had a fully-healthy Gronk this season. Hopefully, that changes next season. We need him healthy as badly as we need Brady healthy. We missed his blocking big time, maybe even more than I thought we would. I still think we need another piece. Lloyd works for what he does. Welker needs to play a supporting role - not a leading one (if he re-signs for a decent deal - I would not break the bank the bank on the guy). I read somewhere on this board about Bowe coming here. That would be cool - but he will be expensive - and no way get him and keep WW.

 

[borg]

The offense and personnel was built around the two TE package. So yes without Gronk, they become limited. And the reality is, without the TE that the whole offense is built around, NE must deploy your traditional NFL offense with WRs that can layer the secondary. Unfortunately, BB failed at fielding a descent Plan B of WR options. Welker as deep threat? Lloyds lack of play making skills with the ball. AHerns lack of speed. Then factor in the teams refusal to use the remaining TEs in the passing game. Just the wrong package of players for the traditional 3 WR,1 TE, 1 RB package.
Problem can be solved this off season with 1 signing/draft pick....get a down field threat which would give NE two properly constructed offensive packages, not the one they have now (with Gronk)

 

[Claremonster]

If you read Bedard's column today, his conclusion was that the offense suffered not from a lack of a deep threat, but a lack of a Gronk. Both the passing game AND the running game suffered from the lack of Gronk.



In their biggest game, the Patriots failed to measure up - Patriots - Boston.com

Gronk is just as effective as most deep threats to stop the better defenses in the league from shutting down this offense (probably more so because he is a complete TE and a huge force in the running game). What the Pats need is a difference maker on offense, not specifically a deep threat. They have that in Gronk. They just need to keep him healthy.

All the more need for a deep threat then, no?

 

[Rob0729]

All the more need for a deep threat then, no?

Not really. All the need for Gronk to stay healthy. When this team was built around Moss, the same issues would have occurred if Moss went down.

This team could use another receiving weapon or two, but necessarily a deep threat. As Bedard pointed out, Branch was on the field too much and the Ravens didn't care about him allowing them to tee off on Welker, Hernandez, and/or Lloyd. A blocking TE could have helped too.

 

[ivanvamp]

You don't think the passing game requires too many things to go right in order to succeed? The offense looks harder than any other offense in the league. It's strange to see brady with no pressure on him unable to find anyone open.


Or maybe teams have caught up to the patriots short passing game.

No they haven't. Brady, only completing one true "deep" ball (on that long pass play to Welker where he caught it about 25 yards downfield), still threw for 320 yards against a quality defense that did everything they possibly could to deny the Pats the short-mid range pass game.

It is normal for the Pats to perform a little bit worse against good defenses than they do against lesser defenses. It's normal for *every* team to perform a little bit worse against good defenses. That's, um, why they're good defenses.