Unfortunate: Jordan Matthews put on IR

[Ring 6]

I think Amendola's one of the more clutch wide receivers I can remember, but some context to those stats are important. Moss was the number 1 receiver (to say the least) and consistently double-teamed whereas Amendola was usually the second or third option on the field after Gronk and a healthy Edelman and benefited from teams throwing their best players at those guys and leaving Amendola in mismatches against third or fourth corners or even linebackers. Playoff teams generally have better defensive players so they're usually able to tamp down on a single receiving threat if they really want to, and the secondary options pick up the slack. It's why Nelson Agholor ended up with better statistics in last year's Super Bowl than Alshon Jeffrey, for instance; Agholor got to abuse mediocrities while Gilmore shut down Jeffrey after he got moved to cover him.

The question at hand was “big game player as a patriot”. Moss was significantly worse if you describe big games as playoff games and Amendola was at his best
It’s hard to use any kind of explanation or excuse to conclude moss was a big game player here, and while Amendola was nonexistent in some playoff games he had some huge ones including 21-278-2 in 3 SBs

 

[Ring 6]

As much I love him, I can't imagine any situation in which you would choose Danny Amendola over Randy Moss in their respective primes.

Again that wasn’t the question.

 

[patriot1136]

I know injuries are tight-lipped, but is Matthews' injury considered season ending?

 

[maineman209]

I know injuries are tight-lipped, but is Matthews' injury considered season ending?

The issue is that, if you put a player on IR before the season starts, it's the "season ending" variety, regardless of the degree of the injury. In order for the player to be eligible for "IR-Return", he must be on the active 53-man roster after final cuts.

Apparently, Matthews injury was sufficiently severe that he wouldn't be able to practice for the rest of Camp, and very possibly, not until at least a couple-three games into the regular season. The Pats can't reasonably sacrifice the roster spot for the rest of Camp (there's still a month to go) to carry Matthews.

So, the solution is, put him on IR, release him with an injury settlement of (say) three weeks of regular season salary. After that 3rd week, PLUS another 3 weeks, the Pats are allowed to re-sign him. IOW, it's kind of the same as IR-DtR, except that Matthews is NOW free to sign with any other team who will have him.

 

[primetime]

The question at hand was “big game player as a patriot”. Moss was significantly worse if you describe big games as playoff games and Amendola was at his best
It’s hard to use any kind of explanation or excuse to conclude moss was a big game player here, and while Amendola was nonexistent in some playoff games he had some huge ones including 21-278-2 in 3 SBs

And I pointed out that stats are useless without context. Can you read?

 

[Ring 6]

And I pointed out that stats are useless without context. Can you read?

Yes of course I can and your context is irrelevant.
Are you seriously telling me that Moss was a “great big game performer” in New England?
With 12 catches 142 yards and 1 TD in 4 games? 62 yards was his best game.
But I posted that already, can YOU read?

 

[goheels22002]

None of that is the question. The question is big game performer. Moss didn’t play his best in big games. I haven’t looked at the numbers but I wouldn’t be surprised if Amendolas numbers in big games are better. They are certainly more elevated compared to regular games.

Really? Every game in 2007 after about week 8 was a big game. The pressure just kept mounting from game to game. He was looking at double coverage every game which is why Welker went nuts that year. Week 14 against the Steelers he went off for 135 yards and 2 TDs. He caught two TD passes in both weeks 16 and 17 when the heat on the undefeated season was the greatest.

Randy Moss Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[Ring 6]

Really? Every game in 2007 after about week 8 was a big game. The pressure just kept mounting from game to game. He was looking at double coverage every game which is why Welker went nuts that year. Week 14 against the Steelers he went off for 135 yards and 2 TDs. He caught two TD passes in both weeks 16 and 17 when the heat on the undefeated season was the greatest.

Randy Moss Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

The heat on the undefeated season was the greatest in the playoffs.
I don’t think you will find anyone who would agree that a guy who was bad in the playoffs but good in regular season games, after playoff spots, division and home field throughout were decided qualifies as a “great big game player”.

 

[Ring 6]

Really? Every game in 2007 after about week 8 was a big game. The pressure just kept mounting from game to game. He was looking at double coverage every game which is why Welker went nuts that year. Week 14 against the Steelers he went off for 135 yards and 2 TDs. He caught two TD passes in both weeks 16 and 17 when the heat on the undefeated season was the greatest.

Randy Moss Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Also if the pressure was mounting every game how do you reconcile this:

First 10 games 66-1052-16
Last 9 games 39-535-8

 

[primetime]

Really? Every game in 2007 after about week 8 was a big game. The pressure just kept mounting from game to game. He was looking at double coverage every game which is why Welker went nuts that year. Week 14 against the Steelers he went off for 135 yards and 2 TDs. He caught two TD passes in both weeks 16 and 17 when the heat on the undefeated season was the greatest.

Randy Moss Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com

I don't know if you noticed, but the goalposts have been moved - double coverage doesn't matter, sample size doesn't matter, and we're only talking about playoff games now. Also Moss catching the would-be game-winner in the 07-08 Super Bowl doesn't matter either because he only had 62 yards (never mind that yardage totals are usually a reflection of gameflow above all).

 

[Ring 6]

I don't know if you noticed, but the goalposts have been moved - double coverage doesn't matter, sample size doesn't matter, and we're only talking about playoff games now. Also Moss catching the would-be game-winner in the 07-08 Super Bowl doesn't matter either because he only had 62 yards.

We are talking about GREAT BIG GAME PERFORMER
double coverage, sample size and including non playoff games WAS the goalpost move.

If you thnk 5-62-1 while his team scores 14 points all day is a GREAT GAME for Randy Moss you must be talking about the horse racing commentator.

 

[primetime]

We are talking about GREAT BIG GAME PERFORMER
double coverage, sample size and including non playoff games WAS the goalpost move.

If you thnk 5-62-1 while his team scores 14 points all day is a GREAT GAME for Randy Moss you must be talking about the horse racing commentator.

I hate to break it to you, but raw reception numbers and yardage are a reflection of gameflow more than anything. Amendola put up huge numbers in the last two Super Bowls because the Patriots fell behind early and threw on every single down for the last three quarters of the game. The games Moss played in didn't look like that at all (except the Ravens game in 2009, which was a disaster all-around) and you'll notice Amendola's stats are conspicuously lower in most of the games where the Patriots were playing ahead or tight in the playoffs. That's not to take anything away from Amendola, who has certainly been great in the playoffs, but his biggest games were games like the Super Bowls and the Ravens championship.

And, again, Amendola did it facing linebackers and fourth corners in coverage, whereas Moss was facing double teams on every single play. And that matters, unless you somehow think drawing double teams isn't a critically important part of a number 1 receiver's job.

 

[Ring 6]

I hate to break it to you, but raw reception numbers and yardage are a reflection of gameflow more than anything. Amendola put up huge numbers in the last two Super Bowls because the Patriots fell behind early and threw on every single down for the last three quarters of the game. The games Moss played in didn't look like that at all (except the Ravens game in 2009, which was a disaster all-around) and you'll notice Amendola's stats are conspicuously lower in most of the games where the Patriots were playing ahead or tight in the playoffs. That's not to take anything away from Amendola, who has certainly been great in the playoffs, but his biggest games were games like the Super Bowls and the Ravens championship.

And, again, Amendola did it facing linebackers and fourth corners in coverage, whereas Moss was facing double teams on every single play. And that matters, unless you somehow think drawing double teams isn't a critically important part of a number 1 receiver's job.

So you are telling that in your opinion moss was a GREAT BIG GAME PLAYER for the Patriots? That is your belief?

By the way in the Moss SB we threw 48 times and he had 12 5 catches and 62 yards.
Last Sb we threw 48 times and Amendola had 11 targets 8 catches and 152 yards.

 

[primetime]

So you are telling that in your opinion moss was a GREAT BIG GAME PLAYER for the Patriots? That is your belief?

By the way in the Moss SB we threw 48 times and he had 12 5 catches and 62 yards.
Last Sb we threw 48 times and Amendola had 11 targets 8 catches and 152 yards.

Moss's targets tended to be lower percentage - deeper throws, two hail mary targets at the end of the game. 7 of the 12 targets in that game were 25+ yards downfield, and those were the ones he didn't catch.

I'm suggesting that Moss played great in big games with the Patriots, yes, but I also don't have this narrow definition of "big games" as "playoffs" that seems to have cropped into the argument on your side.

 

[luuked]

Is this the moment someone mentions that nobody should give a **** what Moss' stats were or if they implied whether he was a big game performer because this is a complex team game where individual impact can often not be captured at all by stats?

 

[Triumph]

Somebody switched from being the biggest Maroney and Chad Jackson fan to Danny Amendolas fan club president.

Danny is gone and not coming back. Get over it.

Mathews was never the answer at slot despite the fantasies of the low information few. Decker and Hogan combined had more slot targets than Amendola last season.

 

[primetime]

Is this the moment someone mentions that nobody should give a **** what Moss' stats were or if they implied whether he was a big game performer because this is a complex team game where individual impact can often not be captured at all by stats?

I already did that and just got stats quoted back at me.

 

[Ring 6]

Moss's targets tended to be lower percentage - deeper throws, two hail mary targets at the end of the game. 7 of the 12 targets in that game were 25+ yards downfield, and those were the ones he didn't catch.

I'm suggesting that Moss played great in big games with the Patriots, yes, but I also don't have this narrow definition of "big games" as "playoffs" that seems to have cropped into the argument on your side.

Well I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that a franchise that has won its division 15 of 17 years, been to 12 afccg and 8 SBs would consider playoff games as their big games.
If you want to believe a #1 WR whose playoff resume is 3 catches per game for under 36 yards with only 1 TD in 4 games, is GREAT that’s your prerogative but I don’t see any argument that comes close to supporting it.

Also if you want to include games that are meaningless except for going 16-0 how do you explain his major drop off as those games, in your words, became more pressure each week?

I mean you can tell me the sky is green and explain a bunch of reasons why you think that but it doesn’t change facts.

 

[Ring 6]

I already did that and just got stats quoted back at me.

Because your argument was silly.
Moss was a great big game player because he produced crap but that’s ok because he is the #1 WR and everyone knows that 36 receiving yards per game is elite in a big game for a #1 WR.
But I’m sure it’s because he wa doing other things to help his teammates score 14 points.

Or are we going back to amendolas 11 targets in 48 passes is a heavy lad offense while moss’ 12 in 48 passes easy ground and pound?

 

[maineman209]