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TheRinger: Ranking the 16 Most Important People in the Patriots’ Dynasty


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We have all heard many times how the Patriots, Belichick and Brady were all just 'lucky', with the dynasty and their careers owed entirely to Bledsoe's injury. That's just a lazy narrative that has been repeated so often that is accepted as truth. The reality is that Belichick was going to make the change at some point during the 2001 season, or certainly to start 2002.

If the Pats were indeed so committed to Bledsoe, then how does one explain why Brady kept his job as starter after Bledsoe was healthy enough to play again? If the finances meant they had to keep him for years, then how does one explain trading him following the '01 season? If Brady had shown nothing (which anybody at training camp in '01 would refute), then why did BB keep four quarterbacks on the roster in 2000?

Playing along with the hypothetical, does it really make any sense that the 2003 and 2004 Patriots would not have been as good as they were if Drew Bledsoe does not get injured? That makes no sense to me.

Just to add to this, Belichick mentioend(Brady 6 docu I think) that Brady had outplayed Bledsoe in training camp but they just went with Bledsoe because of the experience.
 
Personally my list is about who helped win championships.

#1 Tom Brady - BB could be argued but in the end players need to make plays.

#2 BB - A few big time coaching decisions and game plans helped with those 5 championships.

#3 Willie McGinest - He was one of the only players to have a big time impact in 3 super bowl runs besides Brady. He played in all 9 playoff games from the 01' 03' and 04' championships and made plays in many of them as well as key regular season games to get top seeding (4th and goal) and with bit playoff of key playoff magic at the right times gives him the titled of 3rd most important Patriots in a competitive and crowded field IMO.

#4 Richard Seymour - Played in 3 super bowl wins and had impact in all of them. The reason he is lower on this list is he missed 2 playoffs games in 2004 and a lot of the regular season.

#5 Dont'a Hightower - Though he only played in 2 super bowl wins he was key for those super bowl runs and wins. Without him they would have lost both games. He made clutch game changing plays.

#6 Ty Law - Ty Law was absolutely dominant in 2 SBs runs including his legendary domination of Manning in 2003 and his pick 6 in 2001 which was badly needed to win. However not playing in the 2004 playoffs and super bowl knocks him down here and it could be argued 2003 could be won without him which is why he is below Hightower IMO.

#7 Rodney Harrison - He only played in 2 Super bowls but his impact was felt in both runs. He made key plays and became the leader on a team already stacked with leadership and veterans. The only reason he is not higher is he didn't make enough game changing plays. The only reason he is below Law is cause unlike him though he made a ton of plays no singular one was needed to win the game. but 6 Ints in 6 playoff games is massive.

#8 Julien Edelman - Played a huge part in 2 super bowls wins as well as a key parts in other big playoff wins. Though 2016 wasn't a perfect game he did enough good things and great things. Also that TD pass in 2014 vs the Ravens was huge and perfect and badly needed in a hard fought win.

#9 Deion Branch - The only other super bowl MVP here besides Brady. Some would argue he should he higher due to that and some lower cause he was "made by Brady". The truth is Branch was a very good player in his own right but he maximized around Brady and helped Brady too. Just both were on the same page. Huge playoff games in 03' and 04' including back to back great super bowls helped him. He only played in 2 winning ones but was a huge factor as well as big games and catches against other key opponents.

#10 Adam Vinateiri - How can he be so low? Well a few reasons. It will never be overstated what he meant to that 2001 run. Those Oakland kicks were insane and clutch and kept that team alive. In super bowl 38 against Carolina he ended on a last second kick just like in 2001 but I don't really give him as much credit there as he missed 2 other kicks in that game. The forgotten clutch kick of that year was against the Titans for 46 yards in the divisional round at below 0. He had little impact on 2004 as that was fairly routine but he did enough to make top 10 with the big time kicks he did make.

#11 Teddy Bruschi - He played in 3 super bowls. How can he be so low? Well frankly he was just a very good but not dominant player. He rarely made the big plays in the playoffs but played solidly and opened other things up. The key play that stands out though was in 2003 against the Colts when he recovered that fumble. That was a huge turning point and swung things fairly decisively for the Pats from that point onward. However 3 solid runs and play with a tad of clutch here and there only gets you this high.

#12 Malcolm Butler - He made a key play to win a super bowl. The most key play perhaps any Patriots ever made. However he didn't have a big impact in the 2014 season to that point and though he helped in 2016 he wasn't overly impactful in that run. This spot is about that one key play he made and good play besides that but it is enough to make the list for sure.

#13 Devin McCourty - A big part of the 2014 and 2016 wins but it is hard to measure him well with his impacts. He did make a few key plays on occasion but not enough to put him higher.

#14 Troy Brown - It pains me to put him so low. He had a huge impact in the 2001 season but he faded and from then on becomes less important. Still he did enough to deserve this list for sure. If left off it be a huge oversight.

#15 Dante Scarnecchia - The only other coach besides BB to make this list. Though there have been several great coaches here over the years Scar is one who had fingerprints on nearly every championship. I would say though he is this low due to losing in 2007 due to bad OL play and almost losing in 2016 for the same reason. Players do play but those units performances have to be looked at as a reflection on him. However without talent on the OL for the most part he has generally had it play over its head and deserves mention.

#16 Rob Gronkowski - A big factor in the 2014 super bowl win but he is so low cause he didn't factor in any other win though he gets some credit for helping them get to 2011 in a game they would have won had he been healthy.

HMs

Kevin Faulk - Just not enough plays and impact though deserves a mention
Danny Amendola - Huge in the playoffs but didn't do quite enough in the regular season
Josh McDaniels - If I were to mention any other coach it be him Still has a chance to rise up
Vince Wilfork - Great player but only played in 2 winning SBs and didn't have much impact in either due to being a bit too young or old for each.
 
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Agree. The list was meant to be controversial and was very superficial, as most lists are. Basically, the list included:

- non-defensive coaches (assuming Belichick knows nothing about offense and special teams, and that his defensive coordinators are just taking orders from Belichick)
- owner
- mo lewis
- passing game skill position players including kickers
- linebackers

Frankly I'm shocked they included the linebackers, given the overall superficial treatment. But a list of 15 most influential Patriots during this dynasty that doesn't include Richard Seymour? Come on.

Let's do this better. Let's change the rules slightly: still a list of 15, but it excludes all non-player personnel, all non-Patriot players, and excludes Brady so we can get 15 other players recognized. Here's a stab, with an emphasis on long-term players versus short-term bursts:

1: Gronk. Despite all his injuries, he still ranks up with Mark Bavaro as among the most complete TEs in the NFL ever. It says something about the talent on the 2016 team that they won without him.

2: Seymour. Inexcusable to not have him on the initial list. Took years to fully rebuild the defensive line once he was traded.

3: Bruschi. If Belichick calls him the perfect player, how can he be much lower on the list?

4. Troy Brown. For the reasons Bruins29 articulates.

5. Vinitieri. I hate having a kicker so high, but this guy earned it with his clutch postseason performances.

6. Ty Law. Article captured him well although he should have been ranked much higher.

7. Wilfork. He was Ted Washington but for 8 seasons (2005-2012), excluding 2004 when he was still learning and his competitive but not star quality years after the tendon tear. He's the reason the line didn't completely fall apart after the Seymour trade, and was the key cog that dragged the 2011 defense to the Super Bowl.

8. Matt Light. Article praised Scar, which is fine, but Light was the consistent star at the left tackle position on 5 Super Bowl teams, playing through Crohn's disease on top of that. Completely and consistently shut down Dwight Freeney of the team's main rivals. I think it's insulting to give all the credit to Scar while ignoring the actual production of the players.

9. Rodney Harrison. Somehow the article ignored him, and I do understand all of his injuries, but he was another clutch machine from 2003-2008. It's too bad he was the victim of the Tyree catch because he did everything right on that play except actually knock it out of his hands, and as mentioned he was completely clutch in every other moment.

10. Jules. I think they got this ranking about right, but they also forgot about his Troy Brown-lite performance as a DB in 2011. Clutch.

11. Dont'a. Pleasantly surprised to see that he got the love in this article.

12. Kevin Faulk. Completely unsung and underappreciated, and therefore it makes sense they forgot about him too. Another 5-time Super Bowl player. Who was the key cog in the Snow Bowl? Who caught the last pass to set up the field goal versus the Rams? Who consistently kept Brady upright and allowed them to play shotgun so much even before 2007 (I'm thinking of the Vikings 2006 game)? He deserves some love.

13. Willie McGinest. Article was spot on here.

14. Mike Vrabel. Another "Mr. Clutch". Lots of discussions about him recently in light of Ninko's retirement, but let's just say that for as much as I liked Nink, Vrabel was the clearly superior player - more versatile (Nink at ILB?), more clutch.

15. Wes Welker. Yes, I put him above Moss. He was here twice as long, and frankly defined a position in the NFL (obviously it existed, but his work made it an essential role instead of a niche role). Obviously the drop in 46 is a huge blackmark, but I think the drop against the Ravens in the 2012 AFC title game is blown out of proportion based on what happened afterwards and by people ready to turn on him. He very likely was Super Bowl 42 MVP if the Tyree/Plaxico situations don't happen.

Honorable mentions that I hate leaving out: McCourty, Moss, Nink, Logan Mankins (his performance in 42 and 46 kicked him out of the list, even though I know he was playing on a torn ACL in 46), Deion Branch.

Other honorable mentions: Pat Chung, Matthew Slater, Larry Izzo (for a coach that preaches complete football, we need Slater and Izzo in there), Asante Samuel, Lawyer Milloy, Ted Washington, Corey Dillon (for the latter 3, their impact was short-lived, but at their best, what an impact), David Givens and Danny Amendola (for their post-season performances).

Really good list. Hard to see McCourty as first man out, but it'd hurt equally to sub him out for someone like Faulk or Rodney or Vrabel (and I'm a 100% homer for Vrabel and Rodney as Patriots legends).

Moss I talked about above. Hard to keep him out - but Welker and him will always be sorta intertwined for that 07-09 period.

I agree with taking Light and giving Mankins the honorable mention. I'd put Dan Koppen into a double secret honorable mention.

Malcolm Butler sorta already in position to deserve honorable mention, given his 2 rings, his all-time great play, and the fact that his bolt-from-the-blue development into a starting CB allowed them not to chase Revis into cap oblivion (especially worth noting since Revis' performance went to hell last season and the Patriots won the damn Superbowl again). I put MB on the honorable mention list if Lawyer Milloy is already there (since we're not really counting the Parcells/Carroll era Milloy for these purposes).
 
Tedy over Willie, even though Willie is great he was out for the majority of the run.

If Kraft is on the list at all, I can't see how he isn't either #1 or #3.

Has High or McCourty contribute more than Welker or Wilfork? I guess you can count the rings, but very subjective.

And we'll see if M. Butler resigns here and what that could mean.
 
Really good list. Hard to see McCourty as first man out, but it'd hurt equally to sub him out for someone like Faulk or Rodney or Vrabel (and I'm a 100% homer for Vrabel and Rodney as Patriots legends).

Moss I talked about above. Hard to keep him out - but Welker and him will always be sorta intertwined for that 07-09 period.

I agree with taking Light and giving Mankins the honorable mention. I'd put Dan Koppen into a double secret honorable mention.

Malcolm Butler sorta already in position to deserve honorable mention, given his 2 rings, his all-time great play, and the fact that his bolt-from-the-blue development into a starting CB allowed them not to chase Revis into cap oblivion (especially worth noting since Revis' performance went to hell last season and the Patriots won the damn Superbowl again). I put MB on the honorable mention list if Lawyer Milloy is already there (since we're not really counting the Parcells/Carroll era Milloy for these purposes).

I wound up editing the list while you were responding when I realized it was 16 people, not 15, so I was able to sneak McCourty in there after all.

I like your "double-secret honorable mention"! I might sneak SeaBass and Ty Warren onto such a list.

I forgot about Butler, he should be in my honorable mention list. The fact that he was a role player in 2014 played a part (his INT was sort of like Sterling Moore's pass breakup in the 2011 AFC Title Game), but as you said he improved enough to become one of the top CBs in the NFL and win another title even if SB 51 wasn't his best game.

After reading Belichick's comments at Wilfork's retirement press conference ("best defensive lineman I've ever coached"), I'd probably have to move Vince up if I were doing this over again. Says a lot that he thinks he was better than Seymour. Of course I probably should have realized it since he chose Wilfork over him in 2009, but I figured age was a big part of that equation. Maybe not.
 
I don't think you measure dynasties by Super Bowl wins - a helmet catch or the like doesn't make or break a dynasty. Instead you should look at what has created and maintained sustained excellence - and that you have to mainly lay at the hands of the Coach, the QB and the owner.

For players, you have to think "who changed the position?" in a way that survived the player. Thus Welker in the slot forever redefined the role of the slot receiver, both here and at other teams. Seymour did the same at his position (perhaps to a lesser extent than Welker).

The other hallmark is flexibility - the players that showed it was possible to do multiple things well and change their role from game to game or even within the same game. So McCourty now and Vrabel in prior years. The players that make everyone else around them better.
 
I know that he's not particularly well liked due to how he kneels to Goodell and the other 31, but I am a bit surprised that Robert Kraft did not make the lists put together by the forum members in this thread.

If the Patriots are owned by Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, Woody Johnson, Stephen Ross, or any of the team's previous owners, then there is no dynasty.
 
I don't think you measure dynasties by Super Bowl wins
How do you measure dynasties.......2nd place banners?
Name one "dynasty" in sports that never won a championship.
 
As crazy as it may seem, Malcolm Butler deserves to be on this list on the merit of ONE play alone. This wasn't a play where you could have inserted a variety of players and still had the same outcome. Without Butler, this franchise's reputation and pedigree among dynasties is very, very different.
 
How do you measure dynasties.......2nd place banners?
Name one "dynasty" in sports that never won a championship.

You measure dynasties by sustained excellence over and above the pack - if you have sustained excellence you will of course win your fair share of banners. But there is simply too much randomness in the game to go purely by the results of individual games. So reliably winning the AFC nearly every year counts for a lot too.
 
“It was just the fact that Mr. Kraft saw that, ‘I’ve got this terrific football mind, and I don’t know football. I’m going to stay in my lane and let Bill take care of the football side of it,’”

Lavar Ball would be proud. :p
 
Personally my list is about who helped win championships.

#1 Tom Brady - BB could be argued but in the end players need to make plays.

#2 BB - A few big time coaching decisions and game plans helped with those 5 championships.

#3 Willie McGinest - He was one of the only players to have a big time impact in 3 super bowl runs besides Brady. He played in all 9 playoff games from the 01' 03' and 04' championships and made plays in many of them as well as key regular season games to get top seeding (4th and goal) and with bit playoff of key playoff magic at the right times gives him the titled of 3rd most important Patriots in a competitive and crowded field IMO.

#4 Richard Seymour - Played in 3 super bowl wins and had impact in all of them. The reason he is lower on this list is he missed 2 playoffs games in 2004 and a lot of the regular season.

#5 Dont'a Hightower - Though he only played in 2 super bowl wins he was key for those super bowl runs and wins. Without him they would have lost both games. He made clutch game changing plays.

#6 Ty Law - Ty Law was absolutely dominant in 2 SBs runs including his legendary domination of Manning in 2003 and his pick 6 in 2001 which was badly needed to win. However not playing in the 2004 playoffs and super bowl knocks him down here and it could be argued 2003 could be won without him which is why he is below Hightower IMO.

#7 Rodney Harrison - He only played in 2 Super bowls but his impact was felt in both runs. He made key plays and became the leader on a team already stacked with leadership and veterans. The only reason he is not higher is he didn't make enough game changing plays. The only reason he is below Law is cause unlike him though he made a ton of plays no singular one was needed to win the game. but 6 Ints in 6 playoff games is massive.

#8 Julien Edelman - Played a huge part in 2 super bowls wins as well as a key parts in other big playoff wins. Though 2016 wasn't a perfect game he did enough good things and great things. Also that TD pass in 2014 vs the Ravens was huge and perfect and badly needed in a hard fought win.

#9 Deion Branch - The only other super bowl MVP here besides Brady. Some would argue he should he higher due to that and some lower cause he was "made by Brady". The truth is Branch was a very good player in his own right but he maximized around Brady and helped Brady too. Just both were on the same page. Huge playoff games in 03' and 04' including back to back great super bowls helped him. He only played in 2 winning ones but was a huge factor as well as big games and catches against other key opponents.

#10 Adam Vinateiri - How can he be so low? Well a few reasons. It will never be overstated what he meant to that 2001 run. Those Oakland kicks were insane and clutch and kept that team alive. In super bowl 38 against Carolina he ended on a last second kick just like in 2001 but I don't really give him as much credit there as he missed 2 other kicks in that game. The forgotten clutch kick of that year was against the Titans for 46 yards in the divisional round at below 0. He had little impact on 2004 as that was fairly routine but he did enough to make top 10 with the big time kicks he did make.

#11 Teddy Bruschi - He played in 3 super bowls. How can he be so low? Well frankly he was just a very good but not dominant player. He rarely made the big plays in the playoffs but played solidly and opened other things up. The key play that stands out though was in 2003 against the Colts when he recovered that fumble. That was a huge turning point and swung things fairly decisively for the Pats from that point onward. However 3 solid runs and play with a tad of clutch here and there only gets you this high.

#12 Malcolm Butler - He made a key play to win a super bowl. The most key play perhaps any Patriots ever made. However he didn't have a big impact in the 2014 season to that point and though he helped in 2016 he wasn't overly impactful in that run. This spot is about that one key play he made and good play besides that but it is enough to make the list for sure.

#13 Devin McCourty - A big part of the 2014 and 2016 wins but it is hard to measure him well with his impacts. He did make a few key plays on occasion but not enough to put him higher.

#14 Troy Brown - It pains me to put him so low. He had a huge impact in the 2001 season but he faded and from then on becomes less important. Still he did enough to deserve this list for sure. If left off it be a huge oversight.

#15 Dante Scarnecchia - The only other coach besides BB to make this list. Though there have been several great coaches here over the years Scar is one who had fingerprints on nearly every championship. I would say though he is this low due to losing in 2007 due to bad OL play and almost losing in 2016 for the same reason. Players do play but those units performances have to be looked at as a reflection on him. However without talent on the OL for the most part he has generally had it play over its head and deserves mention.

#16 Rob Gronkowski - A big factor in the 2014 super bowl win but he is so low cause he didn't factor in any other win though he gets some credit for helping them get to 2011 in a game they would have won had he been healthy.

HMs

Kevin Faulk - Just not enough plays and impact though deserves a mention
Danny Amendola - Huge in the playoffs but didn't do quite enough in the regular season
Josh McDaniels - If I were to mention any other coach it be him Still has a chance to rise up
Vince Wilfork - Great player but only played in 2 winning SBs and didn't have much impact in either due to being a bit too young or old for each.
You left off mike vrabel who should be near the top of the list.
 
Not sure how Butler is off all those lists.... he saved the day 2 years ago....
 
First, FU to Mays for putting Mo Lewis on the list. Totally classless. Randy Moss? If you prefer your hand to a woman, Randy Moss is on your list. I love Gronk, but he is mostly a no show in the post season. McDaniels is a beneficiary of the dynasty. Patricia maybe, McDaniels, no. At least he got 1-3 right. No one else could have pulled that off.
 
BB
Brady
Kraft
AV

Everyone else is 2nd tier
 
Matt light deserves a mention.
 
Regarding the term 'dynasty'....

It used to be (get off my lawn, I used to walk two miles to school uphill in both directions voice) that there was only one dynasty per sport:
  • the Bill Russell era Boston Celtics that won 8 championships in a row, and 11 in 13 years from 1957 to 1969
  • the Babe Ruth-Lou Gehrig Yankees (also the 50s NYY, that won 5 in a row)
  • the Montreal Canadiens of the fifties (six Stanley Cups in eight years)
  • the 1960s Vince Lombardi Green Bay Packers (5 in 7 years)

Today the requirements of dynasty have relaxed quite a bit, and is aligned with 'best team of the decade', or even simply multiple championships within a short time span.

The Patriots are unique because they are the first team in NFL history to be considered to be the best in consecutive decades. The fact that they have been able to do this within a parity-driven agenda, up against the double edged sword of free agency and a hard salary cap, is nothing short of remarkable.
 
I know that he's not particularly well liked due to how he kneels to Goodell and the other 31, but I am a bit surprised that Robert Kraft did not make the lists put together by the forum members in this thread.

If the Patriots are owned by Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, Woody Johnson, Stephen Ross, or any of the team's previous owners, then there is no dynasty.
I prefer to define this as the era this century, from 2000-present.

1. Robert Kraft had the chat on the plane home in January '97 with Bill, and made the critical and difficult decision to hire him later as head coach.

2. Bill Belichick took over and assigned **** Rehbein to the Orange Bowl and drafted Tom when zero other NFL teams were interested.

3. Tom Brady faced obstacles each and every step of the way that are amazingly underplayed in his personal story. His personal character is as great as any other factor in his and the Pats' success.
 
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