Sign the Beast LXIX: La'el Collins - do the Pats have a shot if he is cleared?

[SlowGettingUp]

Sure, but what can they offer him that the Patriots can't? Certainly not money. There's a finite pool.

According to the link I posted, aside from the finite pool for a signing bonus, a team can also guarantee a salary of any amount it cares to. Not something that appears to be widely understood.
(Edit - I see Miguel just posted about this guarantee).

 

[Miguel]

If making as much money as possible Collins may prefer to play in a state with no income tax

 

[Danger Zone]

Damn Florida.. beautiful women in thongs AND no state income tax.

 

[VectorPrime]

If making as much money as possible Collins may prefer to play in a state with no income tax

Only the most stupid players take that into account when signing for a team.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Patriots can likely offer the among the highest signing bonus because they need to draft the fewest UDFAs. So they could spring for say $75k out of their $88k(?) pool:

http://overthecap.com/what-can-lael-collins-earn-as-an-undrafted-free-agent/

But maybe the real bidding war would be over a guaranteed salary - from the above link:

Now there is nothing in the process that prevents a team from guaranteeing large amounts of salary to UDFA. This is how many teams lure a UDFA while complying with the signing bonus rules. It is not uncommon to see a UDFA receive a salary guarantee equal to a Practice Squad salary (slightly over $100,000) and in some cases double that. For Collins that presents an opportunity to attempt to receive a three year guarantee of $1,575,000. That guarantee would be equivalent to a late 2nd rounders guarantee through his signing bonus and salary guarantee.

From his perspective, he wants a successful few years and then a new contract. Presumably here he would have to play guard, and that perhaps makes for not that great a fit with the team given the current personnel and two recently-drafted guards. But he would certainly add to the run game and take some pressure off of Brady.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/la'el-collins?id=2552361

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000490967/article/lael-collins-meets-with-baton-rouge-police

Do people think he would be a good fit, and if so, should the Patriots enter the likely bidding war?

I presume there is no limit to the guarantee amount. If so, wouldn't this be a great way for any high demand college kid to shop his services to the highest bidder/preferred team, without having to go through the draft process?

 

[SlowGettingUp]

So here's a contract for someone that (I assume) is in the same position as far as the league is concerned - Jarrad Hayne, the rugby star:

Jarryd Hayne three-year 49ers deal: $1.583 million, $115,100 guaranteed, $8,000 bonus, $107,100 fully guaranteed of $435,000 base salary

 

[Rob0729]

Collins would be moved to guard and would play tackle in the event of injury.

And people will offer him tackle positions elsewhere. Which means the Pats have zero shot. The guy lost millions because of this murder, if he is cleared, there is no way he is going to go to a team to play a position that gets paid far less than another position that he can play and excel at. He can potentially be a solid LT. When he can cash in, he will make literally millions more as a tackle.

If Belichick offered to give him a chance to compete for the starting LG position, odds are almost guaranteed Collins will turn him down. There will be plenty of teams offering him a shot to play the higher paying tackle position.

 

[supafly]

If Belichick offered to give him a chance to compete for the starting LG position, odds are almost guaranteed Collins will turn him down. There will be plenty of teams offering him a shot to play the higher paying tackle position.

Rex Ryan apparently flew down to Baton Rouge today, where he met with Collins in the hopes of making him a guard.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/04/bills-dolphins-courting-lael-collins/

 

[Rob0729]

Rex Ryan apparently flew down to Baton Rouge today, where he met with Collins in the hopes of making him a guard.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/04/bills-dolphins-courting-lael-collins/

Did Collins sign with the Bills and I missed it? Also, Ryan met with Collins behind Collins' agent's back. His agent is going to advise him not to sign with a team that will make him a guard.

I never said Collins wouldn't listen to pitches for him turning into a guard. I am just saying that he will end up signing with a team that will let him be a tackle. It is his best way to make back the money he lost.

 

[mayoclinic]

I presume there is no limit to the guarantee amount. If so, wouldn't this be a great way for any high demand college kid to shop his services to the highest bidder/preferred team, without having to go through the draft process?

I'm certainly no expert, but I think that the main limitations are those of the 2011 CBA:

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

In particular:

- All undrafted players are signed to 3 year contracts, vs. 4 year contracts for drafted players (Art 7, Sec 3(a), p. 24).
- Since they would only have accrued a maximum of 3 seasons of experience at the end of their original contract, undrafted players who are not extended automatically become Restricted Free Agents. The CBA requires 4 accrued years of experience to qualify for UFA status. They are subject to being given a qualifying offer sheet by their original teams.
- Undrafted free agents can have their contracts re-negotiated or extended after 2 years, vs. 3 for drafted players (Art 7, Sec 3(k i-ii), p. 28).
- No team may exceed a total of $75,000 in bonuses to all of it's signed undrafted players (Art 7, Sec 1 (i)), so obviously that precludes giving any player a big signing bonus.

I'm not sure that the CBA says anything about how much total money you can offer a UDFA, or how much of it can be guaranteed, only how big of a signing bonus you can give; however, most UDFA contracts fall under the "rookie contract" description, and count towards the total amount that a team can spend on its rookies. This is usually not a factor, since most UDFAs are given minimal signing bonuses and non-guaranteed contracts that don't count towards the rule of 51, and the majority are cut before final roster cutdwns. I believe UDFA "rookie contracts" are also subject to the "25% rule", in that teams are prohibited from giving a player a raise of more than 25% annually, but I'm not 100% certain. I'm also not 100% sure, but I think that the other restrictions that apply to contracts for drafted rookies also apply (prohibiting things like option bonuses, voidable years, and limitations on outside cash and non-cash provisions) (Art 7, Sec 3 (b iii-iv), p. 25). They do not qualify for performance incentives (Art 7, Sec 6(a)).

Assuming Collins is exonerated, I would think his main concern would be to minimize his short term loss and also his time to a 2nd contract. Concessions that I would guess his agent might try to get from teams vying for his services might include:

- Amount of total money, within whatever limitations the CBA allows. Probably not much wiggle room here.
- Guaranteed money, within whatever limitations the CBA allows.
- Waiver of RFA status. I'm guessing that it's perfectly legal to sign a contract in which a team promises that it won't use apply a RFA qualifying offer, or will only apply one at the level of the original draft level (none in this case), effectively making Collins a UFA after 3 years. This would also put pressure on a team to extend him after 2 seasons, rather than risk losing him in free agency.

Just some guesses, but if I were Collins' agent I would be looking at every possible CBA loophole and how I could exploit it to minimize his loss. If so, teams that are more willing to play would have a much better chance of signing him.

All this is of course moot if Collins' legal situation remains murky.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

If Belichick offered to give him a chance to compete for the starting LG position, odds are almost guaranteed Collins will turn him down. There will be plenty of teams offering him a shot to play the higher paying tackle position.

Well it's a 3-year contract involved here. Playing LG in year one and then moving to tackle next year wouldn't be such a bad outcome for him.

But you could well be correct that a straight tackle job for a team in need might seem more attractive.

 

[Rob0729]

Well it's a 3-year contract involved here. Playing LG in year one and then moving to tackle next year wouldn't be such a bad outcome for him.

But you could well be correct that a straight tackle job for a team in need might seem more attractive.

But you have no guarantees that if you start your rookie season as a guard that that team will move you to tackle after that. What if he signed here and the Pats and Solder get a deal done. What if a great tackle prospect drops to the Pats in round one of the 2016 draft and the Pats decide to keep Collins at guard.

If Collins signs on with a team as a guard even if they promise it is temporary, he has to assume it could be a permanent position switch. I doubt Belichick would offer a contract telling him he would play guard for one year and then switch to tackle year two.

 

[supafly]

Did Collins sign with the Bills and I missed it? Also, Ryan met with Collins behind Collins' agent's back.

Who cares if he met Collins behind his agent's back? He's a free agent who agreed to meet a head coach for dinner. The fact that they reached out to him first could certainly play a part.

 

[Rob0729]

Who cares if he met Collins behind his agent's back? He's a free agent who agreed to meet a head coach for dinner. The fact that they reached out to him first could certainly play a part.

Again, I missed the part where Collins signed with the Bills. So far only the Bills and Dolphins have shown interest. I seriously doubt Collins is going to turn down meetings with any team at this point. It is a long way from him signing with the Bills to be a guard.

I can almost guarantee you that if he gets an offer to be a tackle and the contract is the same, he will play for the team who offers the tackle job. I guess if the Bills are creative to give him a better deal(maybe faster to free agency), he might sign there. But I don't know they can make a more attractive offer.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

What if a great tackle prospect drops to the Pats in round one of the 2016 draft and the Pats decide to keep Collins at guard

You have to be very pessimistic indeed about the Pats' prospects this coming season if you think a great tackle prospect will drop to their expected position in the next draft.

 

[supafly]

So far only the Bills and Dolphins have shown interest.

Which furthers the point that Collins may have to take what's offered for him. We have no idea whether he'll play inside or outside. It's pointless to try and project.

The point was that a head coach already reached out to him about playing inside, which refutes your notion that it can't happen.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I'm certainly no expert, but I think that the main limitations are those of the 2011 CBA:

Thanks, Mayo.

 

[Danger Zone]

Who cares if he met Collins behind his agent's back? He's a free agent who agreed to meet a head coach for dinner. The fact that they reached out to him first could certainly play a part.

We've heard some players state this very thing from both sides of the issue.

-how honored they were the HC came out to meet with them in person.. and
-how they felt disrespected when the HC didn't come out to meet with them in person.

I don't know Belichick's or Kraft's active interest in Collins, but of the teams that do, it's Ryan that has seized the initiative.

With some players. Stuff like this can mean a lot.

 

[Rob0729]

Which furthers the point that Collins may have to take what's offered for him. We have no idea whether he'll play inside or outside. It's pointless to try and project.

The point was that a head coach already reached out to him about playing inside, which refutes your notion that it can't happen.

How does it refute the notion? He had dinner with Ryan. We have no idea if he even wants to play for the Bills or use Ryan to show other teams that the Bills have no fears of his innocence.

Once Collins is cleared (assuming he is cleared), he will have dozens of teams chasing after him. He isn't likely to sign with anyone until he is cleared and he has his choice of teams. Right now it is about trying to generate interest in himself.

 

[supafly]

How does it refute the notion? He had dinner with Ryan. We have no idea if he even wants to play for the Bills or use Ryan to show other teams that the Bills have no fears of his innocence.

Once Collins is cleared (assuming he is cleared), he will have dozens of teams chasing after him. He isn't likely to sign with anyone until he is cleared and he has his choice of teams. Right now it is about trying to generate interest in himself.

You said that "there's no way Collins is going to go to a team to play a position that gets paid far less." You also stated that if Belichick offered him a job at guard, Collins would be "guaranteed" to turn it down.

How do you know that as fact? You don't. You're projecting an awful lot of things right now.