QB School's Week 6 Mac Jones Analysis

[PP2]

Yet O'Sullivan thinks that's on Mac. Not on Parker. He pretty much explains why.

I disagree with him. He hasn't seen as much Patriots games as I have, and during the Brady years while BOB was here, it was SOP to have a 3 step and hit the hitch just past the down marker on a 3rd and medium just to move the chains. We've seen that so many times.

 

[PP2]

I think we know at this point that the "smart QB" tag is not accurate. Not trying to be mean, but it's just not there. He's making too many mistakes and missing too many things, and allowing himself to be manipulated not only by pressure, but by the mere idea that pressure might happen.

Bill expects his QB to adjust the protection based on the defense, change the play based on the coverage, get through his reads quickly, get through his reads in the correct order, and hit the open man with accuracy and anticipation. I don't think Mac is doing most of those things. Some of them, sometimes, sure, but most of it is not happening most of the time.

We have been spoiled by Brady who had phenomenal processing speed and had just about seen everything the defense could throw at him.

It's very rare that a 3rd year QB gets to that point this early in his career. The 5th year is usually the sweet spot for a NFL QB.

 

[Ivan]

I hear you. It may well be that if I weren't so pissed over Bill's jackassery in neglecting to giving Mac a legit chance at developing, I'd have the objectivity to see more clearly that Mac's insurmountable limitations are fatal to his shot at being an NFL starter. In fact, if I am honest, I suspect he may well never achieve that status. It costs us nothing, really, though, given where we are this season, to give him the rest of the season or at least a large portion to show what he might do or (maybe) to enhance his trade value. It's not as if anybody else on the roster is ready to give it a go, and to waste resources on some "veteran" castoff to see us through the rest of this lost season seems a waste of money, possibly of draft capital. I guess I just feel the team owes him an extended opportunity and that that is a gesture we can afford. It is also possible that we may have to use him as a bridge to a better alternative, depending on how matters develop re draft postion, etc.

That’s a reasonable take, and honestly I don’t care either way, I have just seen enough at this point, and I’m looking more at where they go from here than I am what happens the rest of the season. I would be really interested to see if MacDaniels would swap Garrapolo for Jones? I don’t believe Garrapolo is the long term answer either, but I think he is capable enough to get a good read on where the rest of the team is at, so they can build around those they should keep, and jettison those they shouldn’t. If possible I would trade Jones for Garrapolo, and then take J.J. McCarthy in the first round, and hopefully a Tackle in the 2nd, if there’s one worth that pick, or a trade up to get one. My concern with Belichick at this point isn’t the Draft, as I think Groh and Wolf are improving that, but it’s the $$& they have for free agents, and his really poor judgement in spending that $$$, and who they spend it on. There is really no way around the fact that his free agency decisions the past few years have really hurt them. Matt Judon was a home run, no question about that, but most of the rest were a total waste of $$$ and roster space. I think this is where the real dilemma for Kraft is, as on one hand I wouldn’t want to replace Belichick until QB is somewhat resolved, but on the other I wouldn’t want Belichick making their free agency decisions for the coming seasons, and if he takes that away from him then Belichick will quit. However if you are the owner you have to make the most difficult decisions, and if I were Kraft I would tell Belichick that while his input is fine, that Groh and Wolf will be making the free agency decisions for the franchise. If Belichick doesn’t accept that he can resign. And if Belichick resigns then I would make Groh the head of football operations, Wolf the Head of Player a personnel, and Mayo the next Head Coach. Then I would direct them to cut all the veteran waste that doesn’t harm their cap, and go as young as possible. I would also give all 3 of Groh, Wolf, and Mayo 5 year guaranteed contracts so as to give them the ability to make the longer term decisions that will allow them to build a long term contender, and not have to worry about win now or else.

 

[Ross12]

We have been spoiled by Brady who had phenomenal processing speed and had just about seen everything the defense could throw at him.

It's very rare that a 3rd year QB gets to that point this early in his career. The 5th year is usually the sweet spot for a NFL QB.

The processing speed I can certainly understand. But the lack of accuracy and anticipation are certainly an issue. I can somewhat understand him not having the ability to change the play/protection at a high level, but you would kinda hope he'd be somewhat good at it considering the reputation he came in with.

 

[Thelonious]

That’s a reasonable take, and honestly I don’t care either way, I have just seen enough at this point, and I’m looking more at where they go from here than I am what happens the rest of the season. I would be really interested to see if MacDaniels would swap Garrapolo for Jones? I don’t believe Garrapolo is the long term answer either, but I think he is capable enough to get a good read on where the rest of the team is at, so they can build around those they should keep, and jettison those they shouldn’t. If possible I would trade Jones for Garrapolo, and then take J.J. McCarthy in the first round, and hopefully a Tackle in the 2nd, if there’s one worth that pick, or a trade up to get one. My concern with Belichick at this point isn’t the Draft, as I think Groh and Wolf are improving that, but it’s the $$& they have for free agents, and his really poor judgement in spending that $$$, and who they spend it on. There is really no way around the fact that his free agency decisions the past few years have really hurt them. Matt Judon was a home run, no question about that, but most of the rest were a total waste of $$$ and roster space. I think this is where the real dilemma for Kraft is, as on one hand I wouldn’t want to replace Belichick until QB is somewhat resolved, but on the other I wouldn’t want Belichick making their free agency decisions for the coming seasons, and if he takes that away from him then Belichick will quit. However if you are the owner you have to make the most difficult decisions, and if I were Kraft I would tell Belichick that while his input is fine, that Groh and Wolf will be making the free agency decisions for the franchise. If Belichick doesn’t accept that he can resign. And if Belichick resigns then I would make Groh the head of football operations, Wolf the Head of Player a personnel, and Mayo the next Head Coach. Then I would direct them to cut all the veteran waste that doesn’t harm their cap, and go as young as possible. I would also give all 3 of Groh, Wolf, and Mayo 5 year guaranteed contracts so as to give them the ability to make the longer term decisions that will allow them to build a long term contender, and not have to worry about win now or else.

Bill should turn the GM work over to somebody: no question. Whether that somebody ought to be Groh/Wolf, I do not know. I would be inclined to make a cleaner weep, but in all honesty I don't know enough about Groh's skills, nor his capacity to say no to his friend and mentor, Bill Belichick, to say. The burden of proof re all that in my mind falls on those who would advocate for the status quo, which to some degree would be the case if we were to keep Groh as GM. To me, the best way ensure we have it right is to have a full, open, objective hiring process in which Groh has no advantage over external candidates.

 

[PATS16N0]

He’s gotta keep working on “the little things.”

 

[Ivan]

No doubt. Every so often, for example, I'll think, "Well, Tom improved his arm strength markedly over his career." Then I remember that in yhis, as in so many other things, Tom was extraordinary. Tom's a ghost who haunts our thoughts and skews our objectivity when it comes to qb.s, no question.

I agree with this , but any QB can improve their arm strength, velocity, release, and accuracy with the proper coaching, techniques, and work. These kinds of attributes are being improved in every sport, and often at many different age ranges. One of the most disappointing things about Jones is that we aren’t seeing any improvement in any areas. He had a legitimate excuse for this last season, but no excuse whatsoever this season.

 

[Ivan]

Bill should turn the GM work over to somebody: no question. Whether that somebody ought to be Groh/Wolf, I do not know. I would be inclined to make a cleaner weep, but in all honesty I don't know enough about Groh's skills, nor his capacity to say no to his friend and mentor, Bill Belichick, to say. The burden of proof re all that in my mind falls on those who would advocate for the status quo, which to some degree would be the case if we were to keep Groh as GM. To me, the best way ensure we have it right is to have a full, open, objective hiring process in which Groh has no advantage over external candidates.

I think Groh, Wolf, and Mayo have already shown enough to the Krafts that they went out of their way to keep them around, and unless they have identified a young football mind that they believe can take over football operations completely, and turn them into a great franchise again, I would rather see them keep these guys in place. Belichick is not going to accept a GM, period. That’s not the deal he made with Kraft, and I think there is zero chance he would accept bringing in a boss for him at this stage of his career. He quit the Jets when Parcells tried to install himself over him, and that was at a much earlier point in his career, there’s no way he would agree to it now. If Kraft wants him to resign all he has to do is to take control of football operations away from him, then he would walk away from the Patriots. And even though I have been a long time Belichick supporter I wouldn’t blame Kraft for making that decision now, as the product is unwatchable, the franchise is going in the wrong direction, and Belichick has had the time and resources to have kept that from happening. I realize that rebuilding a franchise after a 20 year Dynasty run is a big undertaking, but he’s been given enough of an opportunity to at least show progress in the right direction, and has failed in that regard, which gives Kraft both the reasons, and the right to go in a different direction. Unfortunately Belichick is looking at the same kind of career ending trajectory that Landry, Shula, and Noll all experienced, one where the game seemingly passed them by. I don’t know if that’s the case with Belichick, and I think it’s more likely that his ego, hubris, and obstinance caused him to reject the input from others that might have changed their course in a more positive direction. He’s a really arrogant and stubborn mother****er, but he’s still the GOAT, and being an ******* aside I greatly appreciate the Dynasty and 6 rings he and Brady gave us.

 

[upstater1]

I agree with this , but any QB can improve their arm strength, velocity, release, and accuracy with the proper coaching, techniques, and work. These kinds of attributes are being improved in every sport, and often at many different age ranges. One of the most disappointing things about Jones is that we aren’t seeing any improvement in any areas. He had a legitimate excuse for this last season, but no excuse whatsoever this season.

Yes. What people tend to forget about arm strength is how much the legs have to do with it. Why did Tom throw the ball with more velocity than any other QB in football (ESPN's Sports Science proved this)? Because he could move around the pocket, reset, and deliver the ball fast, off a great platform. All that resulted in the "strongest" arm in football. Whether someone could throw farther in practice or throw harder with no one on him is almost irrelevant. We've seen Jeff George and Jamarcus Russell play, to name 2 strong armed QBs. They couldn't throw a ball as fast as Brady could during a game.

 

[Thelonious]

I think Groh, Wolf, and Mayo have already shown enough to the Krafts that they went out of their way to keep them around, and unless they have identified a young football mind that they believe can take over football operations completely, and turn them into a great franchise again, I would rather see them keep these guys in place. Belichick is not going to accept a GM, period. That’s not the deal he made with Kraft, and I think there is zero chance he would accept bringing in a boss for him at this stage of his career. He quit the Jets when Parcells tried to install himself over him, and that was at a much earlier point in his career, there’s no way he would agree to it now. If Kraft wants him to resign all he has to do is to take control of football operations away from him, then he would walk away from the Patriots. And even though I have been a long time Belichick supporter I wouldn’t blame Kraft for making that decision now, as the product is unwatchable, the franchise is going in the wrong direction, and Belichick has had the time and resources to have kept that from happening. I realize that rebuilding a franchise after a 20 year Dynasty run is a big undertaking, but he’s been given enough of an opportunity to at least show progress in the right direction, and has failed in that regard, which gives Kraft both the reasons, and the right to go in a different direction. Unfortunately Belichick is looking at the same kind of career ending trajectory that Landry, Shula, and Noll all experienced, one where the game seemingly passed them by. I don’t know if that’s the case with Belichick, and I think it’s more likely that his ego, hubris, and obstinance caused him to reject the input from others that might have changed their course in a more positive direction. He’s a really arrogant and stubborn mother****er, but he’s still the GOAT, and being an ******* aside I greatly appreciate the Dynasty and 6 rings he and Brady gave us.

Sounds right to me. I'm trying, with pretty good success tbh, to enjoy this transition. We won't get the satisfaction of a lot of wins for a year or two, I suspect, but it should be interesting to watch it all work out. I am. alas, one of those old bastards who says,"I remember the days before the dynasty. Why, you young whipperssnappers..," but I'll try to enjoy the Pats' future as much as I have enjoyed their past, even if I have to watch a few games through my fingers along the way.

 

[PATS16N0]

Yes. What people tend to forget about arm strength is how much the legs have to do with it. Why did Tom throw the ball with more velocity than any other QB in football (ESPN's Sports Science proved this)? Because he could move around the pocket, reset, and deliver the ball fast, off a great platform. All that resulted in the "strongest" arm in football. Whether someone could throw farther in practice or throw harder with no one on him is almost irrelevant. We've seen Jeff George and Jamarcus Russell play, to name 2 strong armed QBs. They couldn't throw a ball as fast as Brady could during a game.

A wildly underrated part of Tom’s game that TV ‘experts’ have always inexplicably missed is how GOAT he was with his footwork. His feet were constantly lifting off the grass and shifting and resetting with every glance of his eye so when he did find a target he was already preemptively ready to fire. He might not have “moved” but he was fluid AF even when seemingly standing still.

 

[Ivan]

Sounds right to me. I'm trying, with pretty good success tbh, to enjoy this transition. We won't get the satisfaction of a lot of wins for a year or two, I suspect, but it should be interesting to watch it all work out. I am. alas, one of those old bastards who says,"I remember the days before the dynasty. Why, you young whipperssnappers..," but I'll try to enjoy the Pats' future as much as I have enjoyed their past, even if I have to watch a few games through my fingers along the way.

I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly with the Patriots, and now we have returned to the ugly once again. What really got me into football, and team sports in general, is team building. This is what got me into the Draft, and free agency. How do you put together championship caliber teams, and maintain them. This is why I find them interesting, even though the quality is seriously lacking. This is also why I am now fine with Kraft taking the reins away from Belichick, even though that certainly means he will resign from the organization. Belichick has now had 4 years to be at a reasonable point of rebuilding the franchise post Brady/ post Dynasty, and rather than be in play-off contention they are in contention for the first pick in the draft, and there is little hope that status will improve much. If I were the owner I would be seriously questioning their roster construction, coaching hires, and overall development. As I said earlier I’m ok with their drafting since Groh and Wolf have gained real input into the process, or so we have been told, but Belichick has squandered 10’s and 10’s of millions on terrible free agency decisions, and that’s what is most responsible for their struggles. Belichick owns that, and I would no longer give him that responsibility, which would cause him to resign. If Kraft makes that decision then we are looking at a complete reevaluation, and reset for the franchise, essentially a clean break from the Dynasty years. At this point I would welcome that, and rather than the drudgery of the endless *****ing about Belichick we could move on to endless *****ing about the new team and regime.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I can safely guess that Mac is not good enough to win a lot of games in the NFL. BB did the guy the no favors in his second year. If the oline was this bad when Brady was drafted he may have been just another camp casualty by year 3? Or maybe Brady’s pocket footwork and presence would of been enough? I think Brady would of been fine just because of the traits he shows early.

Anyway, reason why I think Jones is a bust to below average qb is not just the environment that was unfortunately created/inherited, but his physical skills, read ability and pocket presence. He can’t make all the throws that a real NFL qb makes. It’s so blatantly obvious that the strength needed to make the short sideline throw across the field isn’t there. It’s a pick 6 waiting to happen and all the defenders know it. You can’t convince me that when defenses are game planning for Mac that this isn’t discussed. “Be patient, wait for it.” If you can’t make that throw, you can’t be a qb in this league. They will never respect you. He also can’t get to his 2nd or 3rd reads, that will get any qb packing their bags. You can’t be great in this league without that trait. And I promise you, for all the people that say even “Mahomes couldn’t be successful behind this oline,” I guarantee, even as a rookie he would flash signs of being in command on this team and make a show of it at least.

All the great ones can make all the throws, move properly in the pocket and excel at reading defenses. The average to good ones may be good at just reading defenses, athletic enough to be a dual threat or simply have a cannon or super accurate arm that compensates for not having read ability or pocket awareness.

Mac has shown none of these traits in year 3. He got the pass in year 2, now he’s under a microscope and failing miserably.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yes. What people tend to forget about arm strength is how much the legs have to do with it. Why did Tom throw the ball with more velocity than any other QB in football (ESPN's Sports Science proved this)? Because he could move around the pocket, reset, and deliver the ball fast, off a great platform. All that resulted in the "strongest" arm in football. Whether someone could throw farther in practice or throw harder with no one on him is almost irrelevant. We've seen Jeff George and Jamarcus Russell play, to name 2 strong armed QBs. They couldn't throw a ball as fast as Brady could during a game.

I think Mac has the foot speed to shuffle and reset, but he is so jittery his footwork is awful. Mac does not seem to have a feel for the play timing either. Brady reset well, and had a clock in his head to release faster or slower. I really like Mac and wish he could turn the corner, but I have lost hope. Zach Wilson looks better over the first 6 games, so if Zach can do it, maybe Mac can to?

Mac was better in the 2nd half last week. Will it carry over, or will he go backwards again?

 

[venecol]

This discussion could be a lot more worthwhile if we would decline to embrace and insist on such childishly crude dichotomies as "Mac Haters" vs. "Mac Lovers." A cursory glance at the news any evening will disclose the damage such lazy habits can do to a community.

Agree that labels are overused. Unfortunately, this is the first time I started feeling uneasy about Mac. I watched this live and he just came across as fake to me. Interesting to listen to it again after 3 years, especially about his pocket movement.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/mac-jones-explains-why-he-added-navy-trick-play-to-his-pro-day-script

 

[Sam Bam Cunningham]

Dante Scarnecchia had a very good point in his comments on mAC. He mentions the obvious that MAC's main problem is he has lost all his confidence.
BUT, Dante said it's possible to get it back and get it back quickly. He cites Zach Wilson as an example of a young QB who had completely lost confidence and in the past few games has got it back and performed much better despite crappy OL play.

No one is available or ready to take over from MAC...so I do think he should be given the rest of this season to work it out. Will he ever be an elite QB..no...but he might significantly improve with a ceiling of his rookie year performance.
O'Brien and BB (if they are worth anything at all as coaches) should be doing everything possible to rebuild his confidence and put him in better positions to be successful. A security blanket wide receiver would help.
Time to lower expectations and not hold the bar so high for him. Maybe with less pressure and better coaching he will return to rookie year form.
Dante also said, Mac should keep his mouth shut, not give interviews and focus on the playbook.

 

[upstater1]

I can safely guess that Mac is not good enough to win a lot of games in the NFL. BB did the guy the no favors in his second year. If the oline was this bad when Brady was drafted he may have been just another camp casualty by year 3? Or maybe Brady’s pocket footwork and presence would of been enough? I think Brady would of been fine just because of the traits he shows early.

Remember what Warren Sapp said about Ross Hochstein?

Brady in his 2nd yr. was behind Matt Light, Tom Ashworth, Hochstein, Todd Rucci and rookie Dan Koppen. You can easily argue that line had a lot less talent.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Remember what Warren Sapp said about Ross Hochstein?

Brady in his 2nd yr. was behind Matt Light, Tom Ashworth, Hochstein, Todd Rucci and rookie Dan Koppen. You can easily argue that line had a lot less talent.

Agreed but it would be nice if Lowe is not starting Sunday.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Andruzzi started all 16 games that year.
Light 14.
Compton 16.
Woody 15
Randall 16

Hochstein and Koppen weren’t drafted until 2003. Ashworth was drafted in 2002.

I’m assuming you meant 2nd superbowl and not season?

 

[PP2]

Dante Scarnecchia had a very good point in his comments on mAC. He mentions the obvious that MAC's main problem is he has lost all his confidence.
BUT, Dante said it's possible to get it back and get it back quickly. He cites Zach Wilson as an example of a young QB who had completely lost confidence and in the past few games has got it back and performed much better despite crappy OL play.

No one is available or ready to take over from MAC...so I do think he should be given the rest of this season to work it out. Will he ever be an elite QB..no...but he might significantly improve with a ceiling of his rookie year performance.
O'Brien and BB (if they are worth anything at all as coaches) should be doing everything possible to rebuild his confidence and put him in better positions to be successful. A security blanket wide receiver would help.
Time to lower expectations and not hold the bar so high for him. Maybe with less pressure and better coaching he will return to rookie year form.
Dante also said, Mac should keep his mouth shut, not give interviews and focus on the playbook.

And if we are going to bench Mac or get rid of BB, that's pretty much hitting the reset button once again, after we've done that for 3 straight seasons.

Something has to stay put and be allowed to grow in place, or we'll be no better than the Jets who have been hitting reset just about every year.

The way I see it, Mac does have some problems, but he is far from being the reason why we are 1-5.