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PFT: If Seymour doesn't report, Raiders will want their pick back


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It would require a physician to lose his license because you'd need to find one to lie and say Seymour isn't healthy. Seymour is in good playing shape at this point. If the raiders rejected the physical, we'll see a suit.

Suggs had a blown knee. They're not related situations.


Michael Jackson's Doctor lives out there, he has nothing to lose.
 

I am not certain, but i don't think the league has ever gotten involved with a trade gone bad because of a physical being failed.

One thing that is curious is that, according to media reports, he has not even flown out to the area. I can understand not reporting to the compound while negotiating a contract, but you would think if his agent and he were angling for big money he would at the least be in the area to show a willingness to play.
 
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Here is one scenario I haven't seen discussed.

What if Seymour, for example, accidentally breaks his arm and thus guarantees he would fail the physical?

The Patriots could claim he was fine when they traded him and the Raiders didn't insist he pass a physical prior to the trade. Bottom line is that he will have failed the physical. Does this void the trade?

Just wondering...

_Ursa
 
Again, slipped disk, real injury, not relevant. You guys are talking about a team falsifying a physical.

Thats just it, I am not saying that they need to falsify anything. The article I posted was pretty evident by the Mangini and Savage quotes that each team has their own criteria for certain players.

Hell, the Raiders could possibly institute a bench press of 700lb's as part of their physical evaluation for a defensive end, and failing to throw one up may result in "failed".

BTW, if Seymour suddenly starts bench pressing 700 I want him back.
 
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Here is one scenario I haven't seen discussed.

What if Seymour, for example, accidentally breaks his arm and thus guarantees he would fail the physical?

The Patriots could claim he was fine when they traded him and the Raiders didn't insist he pass a physical prior to the trade. Bottom line is that he will have failed the physical. Does this void the trade?

Just wondering...

_Ursa

I would think the Raiders would be forced to put him on non-football injury IR.
 
Thats just it, I am not saying that they need to falsify anything. The article I posted was pretty evident by the Mangini and Savage quotes that each team has their own criteria for certain players.

Suggs had a BLOWN KNEE. He was damaged goods. Its media speak.
 
T
Hell, the Raiders could possibly institute a bench press of 700lb's as part of their physical evaluation for a defensive end, and failing to throw one up may result in "failed".

Again, no, they can't.


From the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, these are the areas that are considered in a physical for the NFL:

Appendix I

STANDARD MINIMUM PRESEASON PHYSICAL EXAMINATION

Should there be the need for additional examination or testing in any specific area, such will be permitted.

General Medical Examination 1. History
• player
• family
• thorough review of all team physicians and trainer reports for preceding seasons
2. Examination
• head
• face
• scalp
• ears
• external & drums
• sinus
• throat
• eyes
• pupils
• reaction to movement & light
• lungs
• palpation
• chest
• heart
• visceral
• hernia
• rectal
• hemorrhoid
• fistula
• prostate
• gastric
• any unusual body marks, i.e. scars, birthmarks
• height
• weight
• temperature
• blood pressure
• pulse
• heart rate

Orthopedic Examination
Examination visually, including stress testing and range of motion for all of the following:
• neck and spine
• shoulder
• elbow
• wrist
• fingers
• hips
• knees; also knee jerk
• ankle; check Achilles tendon for abnormalities and by jerk test
• toes

Flexibility Testing of hamstrings and neck

EKG Heart Abnormalities

Stress Testing (at physician's discretion) (Treadmill or bicycle) for cardiovascular

Blood Testing
Standard grid. Testing for (including but not limited to):
• Chemistry
• Calcium
• Phosphorus
• Glucose
• Uric Acid
• Cholesterol
• Iron
• Triglyceride
• Lipids
• Sodium
• Chlorides
• White Blood Count
• Red Blood Count
• Mono-Screen* ]
• Tay Sachs* ] *Where applicable. If found,
• Sickle Cell* ] individual counseling necessary.
• VD*

Urinalysis
Check for (including but not limited to):
• Protein
• Glucose
• PH Factor
• Diabetes
• Renal Failure
• Gout

Vision Testing
• peripheral vision
• standard eye test

Hearing Test

Dental Examination

Chest X-Ray (at appropriate intervals)
(Only as recommended by AMA standard)
Check for: Tumor
T.B.
Lesions

X-Ray all previously injured areas (at physician's discretion)
 
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Why would a physician lose his license?

It is the team that sets the standard for what they require to be physically fit enough for the player they are getting. One doctors opinion does not mean another must have the same. Particularly when they are under private employment with one of the most sue happy owners around.

Now, I think Davis wants Seymour bad and will give him plenty of time. But I also think the sooner that Seymour gets there the better.

Well, they gave physicals to at least 80 other players this season, so Seymour would have to have a malady that none of those 80 had and were allowed to practice with.
Look at the other side. If Seymour failed his physical and wasnt allowed to play because of an injury that they let many other players play with, they would open up dozens of law suits.
Like anything else, the thought that there could be a way to lie, get away with it and have no consequences, doesn't hold water.
 
Again, no, they can't.


From the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, these are the areas that are considered in a physical for the NFL:

Appendix I

STANDARD MINIMUM PRESEASON PHYSICAL EXAMINATION

Should there be the need for additional examination or testing in any specific area, such will be permitted.

I fail to see where that says the team cannot dictate their degree of what a physical entails. Matter of fact, that article relates to the minimum exam a player should receive for the pre-season.

As well, this part- Should there be the need for additional examination or testing in any specific area, such will be permitted. appears to give any team flexibility.
 
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Well, they gave physicals to at least 80 other players this season, so Seymour would have to have a malady that none of those 80 had and were allowed to practice with.
Look at the other side. If Seymour failed his physical and wasnt allowed to play because of an injury that they let many other players play with, they would open up dozens of law suits.
Like anything else, the thought that there could be a way to lie, get away with it and have no consequences, doesn't hold water.

I am not making an argument that the Raiders need to lie. second time I have had to state this.

I merely pointed out that there is a couple quotes from a coach and a team manager that each team has their own interpretation, and guidelines, on their respective physicals. And while unlikely, if the Raiders were to grow sour on this deal and could get their hands on Seymour, this could be the avenue they look for their escape.
 
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I am not making an argument that the Raiders need to lie. second time I have had to state this.

I merely pointed out that there is a couple quotes from a coach and a team manager that each teams has their own interpretation, and guidelines, on their respective physicals. And while unlikely, if the Raiders were to grow sour on this deal and could get their hands on Seymour, this could be the avenue they look for their escape.

I think the longer this goes on the more likely the Raiders will sour on this deal. It seems almost universal that they got snookered badly.

I also heard that Seymour wants the Raiders to guarantee that they won't Franchise him next year. That was from Mike Lynch on Ch 5 last night.
 
I merely pointed out that there is a couple quotes from a coach and a team manager that each team has their own interpretation, and guidelines, on their respective physicals. And while unlikely, if the Raiders were to grow sour on this deal and could get their hands on Seymour, this could be the avenue they look for their escape.

And in each case, it has clearly been pointed out, that the player in question had a serious pre=existing injury, which makes all the talk about "interpretations" completely irrelevant, because the player wouldn't have passed a standard physical.
 
I think the longer this goes on the more likely the Raiders will sour on this deal. It seems almost universal that they got snookered badly.

I also heard that Seymour wants the Raiders to guarantee that they won't Franchise him next year. That was from Mike Lynch on Ch 5 last night.

The raiders can sour all they want unless Syemour has some severe unknown injury he's been miraculously hiding, he's their problem and we have their number one 2011 pick.
 
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And in each case, it has clearly been pointed out, that the player in question had a serious pre=existing injury, which makes all the talk about "interpretations" completely irrelevant, because the player wouldn't have passed a standard physical.

What?!?! Where was it pointed out in my example that Suggs had a serious pre-existing injury? I am thinking you didn't even read the article at this point. And I would be curious to know what serious pre-existing injury you think Suggs had?

And obviously Suggs passed a "standard physical", he had to when he joined the Dolphins a week later.

From Romeo in the same article-

The Browns weren't told why Suggs failed his physical, and Cleveland coach Romeo Crennel wasn't sure if the Jets had to divulge their reasons for failing him.

"I doubt that they have to provide proof," he said. "It's just that their doctors didn't think he was fit."

Crennel also took issue with the Jets, and hinted that New York might have ulterior motives for failing Suggs.

"There's a possibility of any and everything," Crennel said. "I'm not ruling anything out. I might talk to Eric and find out what's going on."
 
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I wonder if the Pats have asked the league about what the ramifications are in all of this?

I would think the Pats would want to make the league aware that if this trade is in jeopardy, and that Seymour might be returned back to them, that they'd like to know before the game on Monday night so that they can have their DT back to help them win an important divisional game.
 
I wonder if the Pats have asked the league about what the ramifications are in all of this?

I would think the Pats would want to make the league aware that if this trade is in jeopardy, and that Seymour might be returned back to them, that they'd like to know before the game on Monday night so that they can have their DT back to help them win an important divisional game.


I would think the league is on top of this at this juncture.
 
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I wonder if the Pats have asked the league about what the ramifications are in all of this?

I would think the Pats would want to make the league aware that if this trade is in jeopardy, and that Seymour might be returned back to them, that they'd like to know before the game on Monday night so that they can have their DT back to help them win an important divisional game.

Is it possible that if Seymour somehow fails his physical in Oakland that he would not want to play for BB again and the Pats will end up with no draft pick AND no Seymour? Perhaps BB will have to try to trade him somewhere else. Hopefully this does not happen and he reports to Oakland and passes his physical.
 
This just in: Richard Seymour on the Raiders Injury Report : Diaper Rash
 
I found this on another board. it relates to the failed Suggs trade thewaylifeshouldbe has been referencing. It is from a legal blog about the NFL trade policy. I apologoize if this has already been posted here.

Link

The recent failed Lee Suggs trade raises a curious aspect of the NFL regime for player trades. Two teams negotiate for the terms of a player’s reassignment, and once terms are “final,” the traded player reports to his new team. Only at that point does the new team conduct a medical examination of the traded player. The team gaining the player then faces a dichotomous choice: either declare the player has “failed” the physical, invalidating the trade, or declare that he has “passed,” such that the terms of the trade become finalized. Notably, the team conducting the physical does not have the option to renegotiate terms of the trade based on troubling, but not necessarily fatal medical discoveries. In addition, the team giving up the player has limited or no right to challenge the medical determination made by the acquiring team.

This is an odd way of trading, certainly foreign to most transactions in goods and services, and it may not represent the economically efficient arrangement. Consider the NFL trading regime as applied to, say, the sale of a used car. Let’s say I am selling a used car in which you are interested. As with a potential traded player in the NFL context, you have limited information about the vehicle in question; certainly, I, the seller of the vehicle, have more information. The NFL’s approach, applied to the auto context, would mean that you could look at film of other people driving the car (equivalent to watching film of an NFL player), but that you could neither test drive the car, nor take it to your friendly neighborhood mechanic, until after we had agreed to terms of the sale. Once we had inked the terms of the sale – and only then – you could take it and have someone more knowledgeable look under the vehicle’s hood, to see what it’s packing. At that point, the mechanic (presumably according to your instructions or specifications) could declare that the car either “passed” or “failed” its examination. If the car failed, you would be able to return it to me, along with a torn-up copy of our trade agreement. You would not be able to renegotiate a different price; nor would I have any power to challenge your assessment (or rather, your mechanic’s assessment) that the car was a lemon.

Can anyone imagine buying a used car this way? Yet that’s exactly how NFL trades seem to work. Wouldn’t more efficient trades be possible if the potential acquiring team could conduct a physical of the player before signing the terms of the deal? That way, the team would not face the “all-or-nothing” choice it does under the current regime. If the player were hobbled by some surprising injuries, the potential acquirer could negotiate for reductions in price (or, since trades aren’t for “cash” in American sports, other types of compensation).

To be sure, a proposal to allow pre-trade physicals might upset some players. After all, being physically examined would tip off the player that a trade was coming – something that a player under the current scheme might not find out until the deal is announced to the public. But at the same time, certainly players like Suggs would appreciate not being declared “physically unfit” to play the game – a moniker that can’t be good for a player’s next contract bottom line.

At a minimum, it seems that the NFL should clarify the standards under which teams are permitted to declare a player has “failed” his medical exam. That would reduce the likelihood of the kind of bad feeling expressed by the Cleveland Browns this week, according to the San Jose Mercury News:
The Browns released a statement that disputes the Jets' medical decision, with GM Phil Savage saying that Suggs will return to practice immediately.

"Medical opinions can vary from team to team, and obviously this is one team's opinion," Savage said.

Said Browns coach Romeo Crennel: "They've got a new regime down there, so maybe they're doing things a little differently. All I can say is the kid was practicing for us."
 
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