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(OT) What if Belichick Managed the Red Sox?


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BB would demand to be GM and coach. He'd be the Connie Mack (who ws also owner) of the modern era.

With players....

He'd tell Panda to keep surfing chicks on his iPad in the can and never come out.

He'd tell Hanley to shut the hell up and play. If not, bye.
 
He has had receivers playing DB on more than one occasion.

I was thinking about that recently.

Isn't the usual answer of "Who was the last white CB, Jason Sehorn?"

The answer may actually be Julian Edelman.
 
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This again?

The so-called fireman theory has been tried before. It has failed. Every time. Literally. Every. Time.

No team not using a closer/setup specialist type bullpen has won the World Series since the Athletics redefined the closer's role and made a star of Dennis Eckersley in the process. And I mean *EVER.* You'd think that might give the Monday Morning corps some room for pause but nope. It works on paper and makes sense in my head so it must be the superior way to do things completely regardless of the fact that IT. HAS. NEVER. WORKED.

I swear this stuff is like arguing socioeconomic theory with a communist. No matter what you do, no matter how well you make the argument, the adherents of this idea WILL insist on arguing from the conclusion and you just get nowhere. Doesn't matter that EVERY TIME it's been tried it's been made clear that relivers perform objectively better when given defined roles. It doesn't matter that the ego trip of the closer's role attracts the best talent and then motivates those pitchers to be the best they can be, to keep the prestige role. That doesn't show up on a stat sheet so CLEARLY it's absolutely meaningless.

It also doesn't matter that the whole concept of the fireman theory is made in blind ignorance of the fact that the whole concept is about making one hole in order to patch another. Accepting inferiority in the closer's role will cost you every win you'd gain because you're using the same personnel. It's the same deck chairs, you're just rearranging them. There's a fantasy that somehow the closer would pitch more, but a fantasy is exactly what it is, the closer is already usually one of the team's leaders in relief innings pitched, and closers break down all the goddamn time as it is. If anything, the prestige role actually calls many closers into situations where they probably shouldn't be pitching and they should be pitching a little less in an ideal world. But of course of that matters because everyone who engages in this debate assumes that closers would thrive just as well in less-well-defined non-closer role, with at least 125% more innings pitched into the bargain, because OLD FASHIONED VALUES!!!!!

And all of that even ignores the most fundamental flaw of fireman theory -- the best time to use a fireman is only clear in hindsight. It's all well and good to say that that 7th inning jam was the highest leverage situation once the game is over and the scores have been tabulated and subject to full and complete tactical analysis. Deciding this at the time is much murkier. If you use your fireman to close out a tough situation in the 6th or 7th, and then the guy you'd have brought in in the 7th gets into trouble in the 8th, what do you do? The same thing you had to do in the closer model, count on your middle relief to get you out of trouble. And then have inferior pitching in the 9th and risk ANOTHER rally. If you don't have a great bullpen, how you use your few good arms is actually a whole lot less relevant than it seems.

Witness the 2006 Red Sox season, when we had probably the best relief pitcher in the world and it meant NOTHING because the middle relief couldn't get the game to him half the time. What happens if Papelbon is pitching middle innings? Rudy Seanez or the corpse of Mike Timlin are closing, and you still have bad relievers undermining the work of great ones, only this time it happens after you've already spent your best assets on a loss and can't save them for the next game

At the end of the day the proponents of a more flexible bullpen are actually proposing a very old idea -- a return to the pre-Eckersley bullpen structure where roles were less well defined, the three inning save was a thing, the world was a much better place and all the nostalging happiness blah blah blah. Well, modern athletes are not the same as they were back in the 70's before the Athletics got hold of bullpen structures and turned them on their heads and turned a moderately good starting pitcher into a superstar into the bargain. We're dealing with a lot of athletes that are specifically trained for specialist relief roles. Trying to go back to the pre-70's model would result in injuries to those athletes. That era is simply never coming again The clock, as usual, cannot be turned back.

The closer/setup specialist model of bullpen deployment has stood the test of time for nearly 40 years now, it's good to remain until something else is tried and works, and by "works" I mean "wins a World Series." You can have all the paper theories you want, until another model is tried, tested, and yields results, that's just how it is.
 
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No disrespect intended, but it's a foolish premise. Guaranteed baseball contracts vs. football contracts makes it incomparable. We all love Bill and his no-no sense, coach and GM complete control approach. He's arguably my favorite sports figure of all time. But, he wouldn't last a month as a major league manager under the current arrangements in MLB. He'd likely kill someone before the month was up, but...
 
This again?

The so-called fireman theory has been tried before. It has failed. Every time. Literally. Every. Time.

No team not using a closer/setup specialist type bullpen has won the World Series since the Athletics redefined the closer's role and made a star of Dennis Eckersley in the process. And I mean *EVER.* You'd think that might give the Monday Morning corps some room for pause but nope. It works on paper and makes sense in my head so it must be the superior way to do things completely regardless of the fact that IT. HAS. NEVER. WORKED.

I swear this stuff is like arguing socioeconomic theory with a communist. No matter what you do, no matter how well you make the argument, the adherents of this idea WILL insist on arguing from the conclusion and you just get nowhere. Doesn't matter that EVERY TIME it's been tried it's been made clear that relivers perform objectively better when given defined roles. It doesn't matter that the ego trip of the closer's role attracts the best talent and then motivates those pitchers to be the best they can be, to keep the prestige role. That doesn't show up on a stat sheet so CLEARLY it's absolutely meaningless.

It also doesn't matter that the whole concept of the fireman theory is made in blind ignorance of the fact that the whole concept is about making one hole in order to patch another. Accepting inferiority in the closer's role will cost you every win you'd gain because you're using the same personnel. It's the same deck chairs, you're just rearranging them. There's a fantasy that somehow the closer would pitch more, but a fantasy is exactly what it is, the closer is already usually one of the team's leaders in relief innings pitched, and closers break down all the goddamn time as it is. If anything, the prestige role actually calls many closers into situations where they probably shouldn't be pitching and they should be pitching a little less in an ideal world. But of course of that matters because everyone who engages in this debate assumes that closers would thrive just as well in less-well-defined non-closer role, with at least 125% more innings pitched into the bargain, because OLD FASHIONED VALUES!!!!!

And all of that even ignores the most fundamental flaw of fireman theory -- the best time to use a fireman is only clear in hindsight. It's all well and good to say that that 7th inning jam was the highest leverage situation once the game is over and the scores have been tabulated and subject to full and complete tactical analysis. Deciding this at the time is much murkier. If you use your fireman to close out a tough situation in the 6th or 7th, and then the guy you'd have brought in in the 7th gets into trouble in the 8th, what do you do? The same thing you had to do in the closer model, count on your middle relief to get you out of trouble. And then have inferior pitching in the 9th and risk ANOTHER rally. If you don't have a great bullpen, how you use your few good arms is actually a whole lot less relevant than it seems.

Witness the 2006 Red Sox season, when we had probably the best relief pitcher in the world and it meant NOTHING because the middle relief couldn't get the game to him half the time. What happens if Papelbon is pitching middle innings? Rudy Seanez or the corpse of Mike Timlin are closing, and you still have bad relievers undermining the work of great ones, only this time it happens after you've already spent your best assets on a loss and can't save them for the next game

At the end of the day the proponents of a more flexible bullpen are actually proposing a very old idea -- a return to the pre-Eckersley bullpen structure where roles were less well defined, the three inning save was a thing, the world was a much better place and all the nostalging happiness blah blah blah. Well, modern athletes are not the same as they were back in the 70's before the Athletics got hold of bullpen structures and turned them on their heads and turned a moderately good starting pitcher into a superstar into the bargain. We're dealing with a lot of athletes that are specifically trained for specialist relief roles. Trying to go back to the pre-70's model would result in injuries to those athletes. That era is simply never coming again The clock, as usual, cannot be turned back.

The closer/setup specialist model of bullpen deployment has stood the test of time for nearly 40 years now, it's good to remain until something else is tried and works, and by "works" I mean "wins a World Series." You can have all the paper theories you want, until another model is tried, tested, and yields results, that's just how it is.

For the counter to this see here:

Progressive managers are finding sweet relief by unshackling their closers
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/10/strategy-baseball

I accept that if you patch one hole you leave another. But some situations are undoubtedly high leverage, and bases loaded with nobody out in a late innings of a close game is as high as you get.

I do also concede that the closer here may well not have been warmed up, so maybe this was moot.
 
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For the counter to this see here:

Progressive managers are finding sweet relief by unshackling their closers
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/10/strategy-baseball

I accept that if you patch one hole you leave another. But some situations are undoubtedly high leverage, and bases loaded with nobody out in a late innings of a close game is as high as you get.

I do also concede that the closer here may well not have been warmed up, so maybe this was moot.

That's not really much of a counter. It's one exception (Cleveland) with a team that has two closers (only one of whom has really demonstrated the ability to get up on an as needed basis), and one manager making a few tweaks when his team was already in the playoffs, and no longer dealing with having to pace his bullpen for a full season (The Dodgers have reverted back to the normal way of doing things during this regular season).
 
That's not really much of a counter. It's one exception (Cleveland) with a team that has two closers (only one of whom has really demonstrated the ability to get up on an as needed basis), and one manager making a few tweaks when his team was already in the playoffs, and no longer dealing with having to pace his bullpen for a full season (The Dodgers have reverted back to the normal way of doing things during this regular season).

This might be a better counter:

The Save Ruined Relief Pitching. The Goose Egg Can Fix It.

I concede that standard practice is very much to use the closer only in the 9th with an occasional ask for an out or two in the eighth. But is that the standard practice because it works best, or because closers are temperamental and/or because managers are too afraid to break with tradition?
 
This might be a better counter:

The Save Ruined Relief Pitching. The Goose Egg Can Fix It.

I concede that standard practice is very much to use the closer only in the 9th with an occasional ask for an out or two in the eighth. But is that the standard practice because it works best, or because closers are temperamental and/or because managers are too afraid to break with tradition?

The reason that the current practice is the standard practice is because it works. I'd love to see the Gossage era return, but the numbers say it's not the way to go.
 
Thornburg injury is really hurting the BP same as Porcello/Price struggles have affected the rotation so far. Farrell didn't ask them to suck/get hurt. One could wonder the same way "what if Farrell managed the Pats in the afccg 2013" when the receiving corps was so depleted that Slater was forced to play offense. You can't always make up for personnel issues. Farrell is no MLB GOAT, he is only winning when all the players deliver, he doesn't have this Belichick-type of situational genius, and yet, even BB genius couldn't save the day when he had two many injuries to overcome. The last two SB wins occured in the only two seasons when the roster were relatively healthy through the playoffs.
 
I still wouldn't watch baseball... as someone that grew up playing it for 9 years (at a high level), I find it insanely boring to watch unless it's in the background at a social event or you're at Fenway for the atmosphere..

But from a sitting on your couch and watching perspective, i find it borderline unwatchable

I don't mind watching playoff baseball.

Also, I wonder if the MLB equivalent to NFL GamePass also has condensed games you can watch in 30-45 minutes.

edit: Just checked. They do.
 
7 in 8 years with Gronk pitching
 
The Boston Globe would be a non-stop Belichick fellatio festival.
 
I enjoy listening to the game on the radio with Joe Castiglione but watching 182+ games a season is impossible. I may watch part of all of a game once or twice a week depending who they are playing.

Some of my best childhood memories - mid-70's hanging out with Grampa in his back yard with the Sox on a little transistor radio. Baseball is the ultimate radio sport.
 
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