OT: The strategy behind the clock-killing spike

[jbb9s]

This pet peeve was seeded earlier in the season but was again played out yesterday in the SD/INDY game.

My contention is simple: you never spike unless you will run out of clock before you run out of downs.

In the final SD drive to tie the game, Rivers spiked with about a minute left on 1st down. After coming up 1 yard short on 3rd down, they kicked the FG. I saw a similar BS series in some crap bowl game just last weekend. Don't you think they would have liked another play to gain a lousy yard resulting in a 1st and goal and not put your fate in a con toss?

The point here is that it took Rivers 15 or 20 seconds to get the formation set on the previous play (which resulted in a first down). After all that time getting the lineman set up, he killed the clock. My thought is, if it takes you that long to get up there and set, run a pass play - its essentially a free play that you are otherwise forfeiting and it only takes 5 seconds - you have already burned 4 times that to get to the LOS.

Am I missing something here?

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: OT: The Strategy Behind the Clock Killing Spike

It was a dumb play but with no timeouts players often panic. I knew it was coming but knew it shouldn't. He gave away a down AND saved time for Indy.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: OT: The Strategy Behind the Clock Killing Spike

It was a dumb play but with no timeouts players often panic. I knew it was coming but knew it shouldn't. He gave away a down AND saved time for Indy.

Would you argue that they were a waste in Cassel's drive against the JEST? I could see why you'd say yes, although I'm not 100% sure I'd agree.

 

[ALP]

Re: OT: The Strategy Behind the Clock Killing Spike

i dont remember cassel's drive

but in the situation, it was stupid by rivers a run up the middle would have been much better, waste some more time, gain some yards, and THEN, depending on what happens, u can get to the line really quick and spike the ball

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: OT: The Strategy Behind the Clock Killing Spike

Would you argue that they were a waste in Cassel's drive against the JEST? I could see why you'd say yes, although I'm not 100% sure I'd agree.

Tougher call. Looking at the Game Log our first spike was at :36 as opposed to Rivers at :54. By the time we were around the field position SD has, we were at around :23. Ours was a close call, time was running and we had a way to go. I probably would have spiked in our case or we'd have really been rushing. SD could have taken 10 seconds at the line and still not had real time problems.

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: OT: The Strategy Behind the Clock Killing Spike

i dont remember cassel's drive

1-10-NE 38 (1:04) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 84-B.Watson to NE 47 for 9 yards (50-E.Barton).
2-1-NE 47 50) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 84-B.Watson to NYJ 42 for 11 yards (50-E.Barton).
1-10-NYJ 42 36) (No Huddle) 16-M.Cassel spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-NYJ 42 36) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYJ 25 for 17 yards (34-D.Lowery). NE 83-Welker 1st player in NFL history to start season with 6+ receptions in each of first 10 games.
1-10-NYJ 25 23) (No Huddle) 16-M.Cassel spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-NYJ 25 23) (No Huddle, Shotgun) PENALTY on NE-67-D.Koppen, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYJ 25 - No Play.
2-15-NYJ 30 23) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYJ 16 for 14 yards (50-E.Barton, 97-C.Pace). NE 83-Welker 2nd 100-yard game of season, 6th career.
3-1-NYJ 16 08) (No Huddle) 16-M.Cassel spiked the ball to stop the clock.
Timeout #3 by NYJ at 00:08.
4-1-NYJ 16 08) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass deep right to 81-R.Moss for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN. The Replay Assistant challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld.
3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.

 

[spacecrime]

This pet peeve was seeded earlier in the season but was again played out yesterday in the SD/INDY game.

My contention is simple: you never spike unless you will run out of clock before you run out of downs.

In the final SD drive to tie the game, Rivers spiked with about a minute left on 1st down. After coming up 1 yard short on 3rd down, they kicked the FG. I saw a similar BS series in some crap bowl game just last weekend. Don't you think they would have liked another play to gain a lousy yard resulting in a 1st and goal and not put your fate in a con toss?

The point here is that it took Rivers 15 or 20 seconds to get the formation set on the previous play (which resulted in a first down). After all that time getting the lineman set up, he killed the clock. My thought is, if it takes you that long to get up there and set, run a pass play - its essentially a free play that you are otherwise forfeiting and it only takes 5 seconds - you have already burned 4 times that to get to the LOS.

Am I missing something here?

Nope, not missing a thing. I was flabbergasted when they did it. They took a long time to do it, too. Better to run a running play, then run back to the LOS and spike the ball.

But, all's well that ends well.

 

[BelichickFan]

Nope, not missing a thing. I was flabbergasted when they did it. They took a long time to do it, too. Better to run a running play, then run back to the LOS and spike the ball.

1-10-IND 38 (1:48) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to 43-D.Sproles.
2-10-IND 38 (1:44) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass short middle to 85-A.Gates to IND 27 for 11 yards (54-F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 27 (1:16) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass short middle to 85-A.Gates to IND 16 for 11 yards (56-T.Hagler, 31-K.Ratliff).
1-10-IND 16 54) 17-P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-IND 16 53) 17-P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to 86-B.Manumaleuna.
3-10-IND 16 46) 43-D.Sproles up the middle to IND 8 for 8 yards (23-T.Jennings).
4-2-IND 8 33) 10-N.Kaeding 26 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-50-D.Binn, Holder-5-M.Scifres.
IND 17 SD 17 Plays: 7 Possession: 1:17

First down on the 16 with :54 left. Why are you going to run then spike ? That gives you one throw into the end zone. As it was they got two plays. They should have gotten to the line and thrown one into the end zone. Either a TD or the clock stops with, what, :45 second left. Say :40 if they were slow. Even :35. Plenty of time for two more passes into the end zone. That gets them three chances. As it was they only had one throw into the end zone; the chance of running for a first down needing 10 down there is small.

 

[jbb9s]

It hilarious that Rivers burned 20 seconds to set the OL and spike the ball when he could have taken an extra 5 seconds to actually run a play after the linemen were set - throwing it to the endzone ensures that the clock stops (0=incomplete, 1 = TD) which is what they wanted and the Indy defense is probably not set up as well not being able to substitute or call in a more involved defensive scheme

 

[Wax Frog]

Related question: A team is driving late in the game with no time outs left. They make a 1st down inbounds, with a half minute or less remaining. Would it not make sense to then deliberately give up five yards by spiking the ball without everyone getting set? I go nuts seeing teams madly scramble to line up while precious seconds tick off. Surely the yards lost in that situation are worth FAR less than the time saved. Am I missing something?

 

[ALP]

Related question: A team is driving late in the game with no time outs left. They make a 1st down inbounds, with a half minute or less remaining. Would it not make sense to then deliberately give up five yards by spiking the ball without everyone getting set? I go nuts seeing teams madly scramble to line up while precious seconds tick off. Surely the yards lost in that situation are worth FAR less than the time saved. Am I missing something?

if there is no 10 sec run off in this situation...its pretty smart

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Related question: A team is driving late in the game with no time outs left. They make a 1st down inbounds, with a half minute or less remaining. Would it not make sense to then deliberately give up five yards by spiking the ball without everyone getting set? I go nuts seeing teams madly scramble to line up while precious seconds tick off. Surely the yards lost in that situation are worth FAR less than the time saved. Am I missing something?

ANY offensive foul inside of a minute, while the clock is running, can result in a 10-second runoff.

In fact, if the clock had been running when Kaczur got called for a false start, it would have taken 10 seconds off the clock.

 

[Marko]

This pet peeve was seeded earlier in the season but was again played out yesterday in the SD/INDY game.

My contention is simple: you never spike unless you will run out of clock before you run out of downs.

In the final SD drive to tie the game, Rivers spiked with about a minute left on 1st down. After coming up 1 yard short on 3rd down, they kicked the FG. I saw a similar BS series in some crap bowl game just last weekend. Don't you think they would have liked another play to gain a lousy yard resulting in a 1st and goal and not put your fate in a con toss?

The point here is that it took Rivers 15 or 20 seconds to get the formation set on the previous play (which resulted in a first down). After all that time getting the lineman set up, he killed the clock. My thought is, if it takes you that long to get up there and set, run a pass play - its essentially a free play that you are otherwise forfeiting and it only takes 5 seconds - you have already burned 4 times that to get to the LOS.

Am I missing something here?

I've thought this for years! Run a damn play that takes 4 more seconds!

 

[Wax Frog]

ANY offensive foul inside of a minute, while the clock is running, can result in a 10-second runoff.

In fact, if the clock had been running when Kaczur got called for a false start, it would have taken 10 seconds off the clock.

I wasn't sure if the runoff was applied in every case. Seems almost like a punishment for making a long gain within the field of play - "don't bother trying because you're screwed either way" - but then I suppose I should be used to lame-IMO rules by now

Would it be legal to drop-kick a ball right at a defender and then recover it on the ricochet? Would the clock stop? [sarcasm]

 

[Pats726]

1-10-IND 38 (1:48) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to 43-D.Sproles.
2-10-IND 38 (1:44) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass short middle to 85-A.Gates to IND 27 for 11 yards (54-F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 27 (1:16) (Shotgun) 17-P.Rivers pass short middle to 85-A.Gates to IND 16 for 11 yards (56-T.Hagler, 31-K.Ratliff).
1-10-IND 16 54) 17-P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-IND 16 53) 17-P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to 86-B.Manumaleuna.
3-10-IND 16 46) 43-D.Sproles up the middle to IND 8 for 8 yards (23-T.Jennings).
4-2-IND 8 33) 10-N.Kaeding 26 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-50-D.Binn, Holder-5-M.Scifres.
IND 17 SD 17 Plays: 7 Possession: 1:17

First down on the 16 with :54 left. Why are you going to run then spike ? That gives you one throw into the end zone. As it was they got two plays. They should have gotten to the line and thrown one into the end zone. Either a TD or the clock stops with, what, :45 second left. Say :40 if they were slow. Even :35. Plenty of time for two more passes into the end zone. That gets them three chances. As it was they only had one throw into the end zone; the chance of running for a first down needing 10 down there is small.

I agree that they are different conditions and reasons...NOT making much sense in teh SD game..as one IS close to the goal line..a LOT different with being further away...

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I would agree that for Rivers to spike it there was unwise, since they were ALREADY in field goal range and needed extra opportunities to WIN the game.

If instead a FG would ot be enough to tie or win the game, I think that you spike and save clock, especially on 1st down, since you will eventually go for it on 4th down if it comes to that.

 

[BelichickFan]

If you need a TD though to even tie, I think that you spike and save clock, especially on 1st down, since you will eventually go for it on 4th down if it comes to that.

Going on 4th or not, you still give away a down for nothing and have plenty of time on the clock. You now have 3 tries instead of 4 if you need a TD.

 

[upstater1]

it's a stupid play.

And, a similarly dumb play effected our season. San Francisco got the ball into Dolphin territory and spiked the ball when they had a real chance to beat the Dolphins.


1-10-MIA 42 (1:58) (Shotgun) 13-S.Hill pass short right to 82-B.Johnson to MIA 34 for 8 yards (29-T.Culver).

2-2-MIA 34 (1:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 13-S.Hill pass short middle to 24-M.Robinson to MIA 21 for 13 yards (29-T.Culver).

1-10-MIA 21 (1:20) (No Huddle) 13-S.Hill spiked the ball to stop the clock.

2-10-MIA 21 (1:18) (Shotgun) 13-S.Hill pass incomplete short middle to 29-D.Foster (52-C.Crowder).

3-10-MIA 21 (1:13) 13-S.Hill pass incomplete deep left to 88-I.Bruce.

4-10-MIA 21 (1:07) 13-S.Hill sacked at MIA 28 for -7 yards (55-J.Porter). PENALTY on MIA-55-J.Porter, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, 14 yards, enforced between downs.

With 1:20 seconds left, on Miami's 21 yard line!!!! San Fran spiked the ball. That was insane. They had been dinking and dunking it down the field, and then they called a series of stupid plays that lost the game, and it was because of the spike. On 2nd down they had an incomplete, which put them at 3rd and long when they went for the end zone. They looked like idiots for the spike when Miami took the ball over with over 1 minute left on the clock.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Going on 4th or not, you still give away a down for nothing and have plenty of time on the clock. You now have 3 tries instead of 4 if you need a TD.

Yes, it depends on the time factor of course. I was more referring to Cassel spiking vs. the Jets.

If you get a long gain to make it 1st-and-10 and you are at the 20 and need a touchdown to win, and there is 25 seconds left, you should spike it (especially if you would need time to audible a play). You have three plays and 25 seconds. With that amount of time, you probably can't count on more than 3 plays. Same situation and a minute left, no way do you spike it, you conserve every down.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

ANY offensive foul inside of a minute, while the clock is running, can result in a 10-second runoff.

In fact, if the clock had been running when Kaczur got called for a false start, it would have taken 10 seconds off the clock.

While true, the penalty has to be deemed to have been a clock preservation play -- not necessarily that that was the intention but it needs to be the result. If the official judges that it was not a stop the clock play, there is no 10 second run off and the clock is rewound when the U signals the ball ready for play.

For example, an illegal shift penalty (or any other formation penalty that does not stop the clock but instead allows the play to be run) will virtually never result in a 10 second run off. (Happened this weekend in fact.) Really, the only offensive penalty that actually halts play immediately is a false start, so that's the only situation where you will see a 10 second run off, for all practical purposes. Occasionally you can have a run off on an unsportsmanlike conduct penaly since that also causes an immediate whistle and clock stoppage.