One Factor Heading Into the Titans Match-up...?

[DaBruinz]

I usually agree with you. This take is a bit weak. Vrabel was inside Brady's head? Really? Maybe the Pats were not that strong? A team can only overcome a disadvantage against superior athletes on the other side of the ball to a certain point. This year Mac is not as good as Brady (obviously), but the group around him, offense and defense, is so much more athletic than 2019ish.

Vrabel was Brady's teammate for 8 years. For 7+ of those 8, Vrabel lined up across from Brady on defense. If you don't think that Vrabel learned BRADY'S tendencies during that time, you aren't giving him enough credit. Furthermore, Vrabel lined up in Red Zone offenses as well. We know that Vrabel was like a coach for the Pats during the later years of his tenure. It's what allowed him to move Inside the one year. So, yes, I believe that Vrabel had Brady's number. He had a very good idea what Brady would do based on what the defenses "showed" Brady and this gave him and advantage against the Pats.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

It possibly could, but i think it’s also to do with bb tending to struggle against former coaches/ system guy in this case. Brady didn’t have a lot to work with in either game either , 2018 it was while the team was still finding their niche and 2019 was obviously a train wreck offensively in the 2nd half. In both cases Brady struggled mightily against several teams and coaches.

On the plus side I feel like a) bb is due to get one up on Vrabel as I don’t think any former pat continued getting the better of bb and b) BB seems more motivated this year than any other. Although we get the best hc in the league any given year, this so far has been perhaps his best.

 

[BTTA]

On the plus side I feel like a) bb is due to get one up on Vrabel as I don’t think any former pat continued getting the better of bb and b) BB seems more motivated this year than any other. Although we get the best hc in the league any given year, this so far has been perhaps his best.

He does seem to have a little bounce in his stride. I think the last years with Brady were stressful, and he had to pay attention to giving a single player what he wanted more than is his nature. Wouldn't be surprised if he feels a bit liberated.

 

[farn]

What if BB decides Stidham is ready ? Booooooom.

 

[Betterthanmost]

????????

Sorry, it came across as if he was not a defensive player for us. What I meant is that he spent time with the offense, knew the calls, tendencies etc.

 

[borg]

Another way to look at it would be this. If given the choice between Mac or Brady in that 2019 playoff game, who would you believe gives you the better chance to win? Pretty sure any sane person would agree Brady.

If I remember correctly, the Brady mansion was up for sale. And in January during the playoffs, Yoko had pulled the kiddies out of the school and was shopping for new schools in happier locales than joyless Brookline. And the concussion water creator/ glute masseuse's house was up for sale (or already sold), etc etc etc

So, another way to look at it:
Would you prefer a 'checked out" Brady whose reaction to his game ending INT was "meh" or a "checked in" McCorkle who has no preoccupation building 'brand' or self financing personal documentary crews or squeezing footlongs and mounting mattresses in hotel suites in cringe inducing commercials.

Personally, I go with the checked in young dude with fire in his belly and not the checked out elder who had one foot squarely out the door during the entirety of his self-subscribed "most miserable season"

I truly believe Mac could have surpassed Brady's anemic 10 point final outing
But that's just me and my all-seeing hindsight

 

[RobertWeathers]

I wrote this in a post after the game but wanted to know if anyone else felt similar about it:

"With the Titans up next, the good news is that, unlike former Patriots quarterback Tom Brady, Mac Jones has no history with Mike Vrabel. Brady seemed to get a little too inside his head in those match-ups, which should hopefully give Jones an advantage since Tennessee is just another opponent on the schedule for the rookie QB."

I always felt like Brady played a little tight in those games, whereas Jones doesn't know him, so I sort of wonder if things might go a little differently this time around. Anyone else agree or disagree?

Possibly. I think it's a lot more about how Vrabes has a complete understanding of the offense and how to defend it. Calls, areas that can be taken advantage of, etc.

The EP system places heavy reliance on the QB and the entire offense to independently do what they need to do based on what the defense shows. This is called a sight adjustment.

Guys like Dean Pees and Vrabel know this. Last minute blitzes. Showing cover 2 then dropping into cover 3, etc.

So it's not necessarily always confusing the QB but confusing the receivers as well.

I expect the TN game to be a lot like what we saw in ATL.

 

[50-yard-line]

The only thing that scares me about this game is that the Titans remind me of the 49'ers in the trenches. Bullies. The Pats haven't fared well against bullies the last few years. This year, I think might be different, but I wasn't surprised when the Niners beat the crap out of New England last year, and that game, dropping them to 2-4 really sealed the season. Totally exposed them.

This is a different team, though - bigger and tougher. Should be a dogfight. People focus on skill positions too much - the Titans OL and DL are physical, like the Bills, like the Niners. Those three teams were built from the inside out. Old school.

Next four games should be trench warfare.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Sorry, it came across as if he was not a defensive player for us. What I meant is that he spent time with the offense, knew the calls, tendencies etc.

Yes I agree. Based on how early he broke on the ball he intercepted against us, I think he knew that play specifically. Others think our guys ran the route wrong or poorly, to which I disagree, Gilmore new the play.

Gilmore was only playing 3rd downs for the Panthers when we played them, I assume he is still recovering from his injury.

 

[Ivan]

I always felt that it wasn’t getting into his head, but getting at his feet, and clogging the middle of the field to take away his quick dump offs to the slot receivers. Brady usually found a way to overcome pretty much anything, but that seemed to be the most effective way to slow him, especially when combined with limiting possessions to 10 or less.

As far as this match up, and the season in general I think that converting 3rd downs will be the most critical thing for their offense. They have established their identity as a power run team, which is perfect for Jones to succeed, but that only works if they are converting a high percentage of 3rd downs, especially against the toughest defenses, and this will be tested significantly against Tennessee, Indy, and Buffalo.

 

[PScottman]

The only thing that scares me about this game is that the Titans remind me of the 49'ers in the trenches. Bullies. The Pats haven't fared well against bullies the last few years. This year, I think might be different, but I wasn't surprised when the Niners beat the crap out of New England last year, and that game, dropping them to 2-4 really sealed the season. Totally exposed them.

This is a different team, though - bigger and tougher. Should be a dogfight. People focus on skill positions too much - the Titans OL and DL are physical, like the Bills, like the Niners. Those three teams were built from the inside out. Old school.

Next four games should be trench warfare.

So here's where I'll "tack back against the wind" and agree with a portion of the "the Patriots are not talented enough! They suck at drafting!" meme in that it's "like against like" wherein talent plays a slightly larger role. What I mean is, if both teams play "team football", are built from the trenches out as you stated, and are predicated on utilizing the entire team and scheme in concert not "out athlete" everyone then that athleticism does play a slightly larger role in micro-matchups that determine a game.

Can the OL play as a unit, but also dominate the necessary one on ones - can the RB erase a CB blitz? Same for the DL - can Godchaux/Davis occupy side to side (hopefully two OL, but even one is okay) so the LBs can flow and tackle?

In short, if the schemology and "how" the team was built are similar (smash mouth running game, solid high yard/low score defense) - there is a slightly higher need for players to be one-on-one more talented.

 

[jah]

the bigger problem was Derek Henry rushing for 700 yards in the playoff game

I'll never understand why people insist on blaming the defense for that game when the offense could have won it by scoring 15 points (assuming that last second pick 6 doesn't happen if we aren't desperate).

Is 15 points really too big an ask?

 

[sb1]

I'll never understand why people insist on blaming the defense for that game when the offense could have won it by scoring 15 points (assuming that last second pick 6 doesn't happen if we aren't desperate).

Is 15 points really too big an ask?

First and goal from the TEN 1: Rush for minus 1 yards, Rush for 2 yards, Rush for minus 2 yards, FG to go up 10-7 instead of 14-7. That was the difference.

This year they get into the end zone there. Without a doubt.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'll never understand why people insist on blaming the defense for that game when the offense could have won it by scoring 15 points (assuming that last second pick 6 doesn't happen if we aren't desperate).

Is 15 points really too big an ask?

Yea I think the optics of Henry physically abusing our front 7 left the impression of the D not doing the job.

 

[Ross12]

It's certainly possible. I generally assumed that the matchups were tougher due to Vrabel's deep knowledge of the Patriots defense AND having experience playing against AND also ON their offense at TE as well. Former players and coaches frequently play the Pats tight, I always kind of dread them lol.

 

[RIpats88]

this is not a Brady vs Mac comparison, so let's not start that argument. but our offense now is better than what we trotted out against the Titans in 2019.

At tight end we had the ghost or Ben Watson, at receiver an injured Edelman, Sanu and nkeal harry.

Also no Derrick henry

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Vrabel was Brady's teammate for 8 years. For 7+ of those 8, Vrabel lined up across from Brady on defense. If you don't think that Vrabel learned BRADY'S tendencies during that time, you aren't giving him enough credit. Furthermore, Vrabel lined up in Red Zone offenses as well. We know that Vrabel was like a coach for the Pats during the later years of his tenure. It's what allowed him to move Inside the one year. So, yes, I believe that Vrabel had Brady's number. He had a very good idea what Brady would do based on what the defenses "showed" Brady and this gave him and advantage against the Pats.

Vrabel left the Patriots in 2008, ten years before he was a coach in the 2018 regular season game. What tendencies did he learn ten years prior? Please be specific. What did Vrabel know about Brady that did not change in ten years. Obviously the plays all changed, the signs and signals had all changed, so what specifically did Vrabel know that "had Brady's number"? If you only have generalities that is OK, but if you have specific examples it would be nice of you to share them.

@Ian thinks Brady played tight in games against Vrabel. Inside Sam Darnold's head? I can understand that. Inside Brady's head? The GOAT? I am not a Brady apologist - look at my history of posting - but this supposed insightful analysis is very lacking IMO. Vrabel was the Alpha Dog in the Patriots' locker room and Brady was the Alpha Puppy, so when Vrabel looks sideways at Brady from the coaching sidelines, Brady plays tight? Brady was the Alpha Dog in the Patriots' locker room, and is the Alpha Dog in the Buccaneers locker room - Vrabel is not inside Brady's head. Brady is the GOAT - someone only becomes the GOAT because they are mentally stronger than all the rest. Any suggestion otherwise is poppycock.

Some people believe in telepathy - I do not.

Vrabel "showed" Brady defensive alignments he learned in practice ten years earlier, and fooled the GOAT? Brady had not changed or learned anything in ten years? Highly unlikely IMO. Do you have any specific examples to support your theory?

Remember what BB said when asked about players (I think it was CBs) playing with juju (I forget the actual word the sports writers were using at the time)? BB said he did not even know what "juju" was. End of discussion. Maybe we should ask BB if he thinks Vrabel makes him tighten up as a coach? Or if he thinks Vrabel makes Brady tighten up as a player? Sounds absurd to me.

 

[Ian]

Vrabel left the Patriots in 2008, ten years before he was a coach in the 2018 regular season game. What tendencies did he learn ten years prior? Please be specific. What did Vrabel know about Brady that did not change in ten years. Obviously the plays all changed, the signs and signals had all changed, so what specifically did Vrabel know that "had Brady's number"? If you only have generalities that is OK, but if you have specific examples it would be nice of you to share them.

@Ian thinks Brady played tight in games against Vrabel. Inside Sam Darnold's head? I can understand that. Inside Brady's head? The GOAT? I am not a Brady apologist - look at my history of posting - but this supposed insightful analysis is very lacking IMO. Vrabel was the Alpha Dog in the Patriots' locker room and Brady was the Alpha Puppy, so when Vrabel looks sideways at Brady from the coaching sidelines, Brady plays tight? Brady was the Alpha Dog in the Patriots' locker room, and is the Alpha Dog in the Buccaneers locker room - Vrabel is not inside Brady's head. Brady is the GOAT - someone only becomes the GOAT because they are mentally stronger than all the rest. Any suggestion otherwise is poppycock.

Some people believe in telepathy - I do not.

Vrabel "showed" Brady defensive alignments he learned in practice ten years earlier, and fooled the GOAT? Brady had not changed or learned anything in ten years? Highly unlikely IMO. Do you have any specific examples to support your theory?

Remember what BB said when asked about players (I think it was CBs) playing with juju (I forget the actual word the sports writers were using at the time)? BB said he did not even know what "juju" was. End of discussion. Maybe we should ask BB if he thinks Vrabel makes him tighten up as a coach? Or if he thinks Vrabel makes Brady tighten up as a player? Sounds absurd to me.

I think you misinterpreted what I was getting at. I felt like Brady overthought things in those match-ups, given how he played. Not due to any “juju”, telepathy, or anything crazy. And this was meant as a general question more so than “insightful analysis”. I’ll definitely agree that I certainly wouldn’t put it into that category. I was just thinking that this time around, with Mac, the fact Vrabel is a former Patriot feels like it’s less of a factor.

 

[oldrover]

It's certainly possible. I generally assumed that the matchups were tougher due to Vrabel's deep knowledge of the Patriots defense AND having experience playing against AND also ON their offense at TE as well. Former players and coaches frequently play the Pats tight, I always kind of dread them lol.

"A prophet is without honor in his home town."

...cut me some slack... it's Sunday...

 

[DaBruinz]

Vrabel left the Patriots in 2008, ten years before he was a coach in the 2018 regular season game. What tendencies did he learn ten years prior? Please be specific. What did Vrabel know about Brady that did not change in ten years. Obviously the plays all changed, the signs and signals had all changed, so what specifically did Vrabel know that "had Brady's number"? If you only have generalities that is OK, but if you have specific examples it would be nice of you to share them.

So, it's your premise that practicing every day against a guy for 7+ years, you don't notice a player's tendencies? Do you really think that Brady changed all his tendencies? I don't. Just like there is such a thing as tipping pitches or having a tell in poker. Jason Varitek is well known his notebook opposing hitters and pitchers. He said that during his career, he was able to learn tendencies of opposing pitchers and what they liked to do in situations against particular hitters.

Let me give you a different example. When I was playing college hockey, we had this center on our team who always did this one move in practice. Always. In breakaways, he would come down the slot, break to his right at the circles and then deke left to put the puck in around us goalies. You'd think after the half dozen practices, he'd change it up, but no. He didn't. After the 10th practice the 1st year, I had his number.. He'd curse me every time. The other goalies, despite my telling them what to watch for, over-thought things. They would think, ok,. this is when he changes it up. they'd over-think and he'd still beat them with the same move.

What's more plausible? The Vrabel knew Brady's tendencies in certain situations and was able to game plan for them? Or that Vrabel magically because a better coach than Belichick? The fact that you are demanding specifics from football laymen is actually pretty funny.

I can tell you one tendency that Brady developed. He looked for his favorite receiver in tough situations instead of the open one. This is well known and well documented on this site. First it was Welker. Then Gronk. Then Edelman. In most cases it worked because of the talent of those players, but there were more than a few times people noted open receivers that Brady didn't go to over the years.