Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus

[3 to be 4]

Thankfully that is true of any religion....

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

I had been a Jew for 42 years beforehand and I didnt sound too different.
Get all offended, say you've been "assaulted", and never offer a valid scriptural answer.

once again, in my post i admitted a "struggle". I didnt say I was JUST SAVED or that i ws a raving lunatic. Just that I made a few jokes that represented the old me and i was being open enough to own up to it.

Ive been on fire for the Lord for 17 months and im very secure in my beliefs.
Because of that im offering up some concrete, Old Testament reasoning, while acknowledging what "false Christians" did to Jews in the past. Did you READ the website? any rebuttals.

or are you just going to what I did for all those years and just say "how dare you"?

You were not assaulted by me at any time.

I just want to tell you. Jesus loves you.

 

[shmessy]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

I had been a Jew for 42 years beforehand and I didnt sound too different.
Get all offended, say you've been "assaulted", and never offer a valid scriptural answer.

once again, in my post i admitted a "struggle". I didnt say I was JUST SAVED or that i ws a raving lunatic. Just that I made a few jokes that represented the old me and i was being open enough to own up to it.

Ive been on fire for the Lord for 17 months and im very secure in my beliefs.
Because of that im offering up some concrete, Old Testament reasoning, while acknowledging what "false Christians" did to Jews in the past. Did you READ the website? any rebuttals.

or are you just going to what I did for all those years and just say "how dare you"?

You were not assaulted by me at any time.

I just want to tell you. Jesus loves you.

Except for a few small sects, we don't proselytize. We know that one's relation to God and Judaism must come from within, not externally from peer pressure. If external pressure worked on us, we never could have survived two thousand years of "hearing the good news".

I enjoy a quiet serendipity. Life has its ups and downs but I experience and appreciate each.

 

[Clonamery]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

Well, I am not a Jew so I cannot speak to that. But yet Jesus is not the answer for me or my brother who is a Buddhist.

I am probably too selfish and ignorant (or arrogant) to seek any particular religion. I feel this life is too short not to, as a wiser, more intelligent man put it, "experience and appreciate" each of life's "ups and downs" with a mortal serendipity with an occasional epiphany.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

exactly how were any you assaulted? If you are so secure in your ground, how about offering reasons for "Jews not to believe in Jesus"

3toB, if you are secure in your belief as a Christian, why do you have this need to foist your point of view on those of other faiths -- singling out Jews in particular?

If you have any knowledge of history, you know the Christian psychological need for Jews to cease to exist in their present, non-Christian form, has caused no end of mischief in the form of forced conversions, pogroms, and theological antisemitism.

Beyond that, the proselytizing to other religious groups displays epic chutzpah. Since it is a prevalent, and by some readings inescapable, "duty" for a Christian to annoy others with Christian needs vis a vis others' beliefs, I think this rude habit is only somehow accepted in society because of its ubiquity.

As to addressing the particulars of your little link, my friend, I've explained rot like this a good thousand times by now to various people at various times in my life. At no time did either party convince the other.

Nor do I walk around asking Christians, "if the Gospel says Jesus will return within the lifetime of those who hear his voice, where the hell is he????"

You have a problem, 3 to B. Jesus was suppose to have been the messiah of the Jews, but by and large he turns out only to be the messiah of non-Jews, until you bring the sword into play. This is why Pauline christianity became the christianity with which you're familiar, and Peter is a much lesser figure. Peter failed in converting the Jews, while Paul was ridiculously successful.

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

 

[Clonamery]

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

It always seems to be one crusade or another for the insecure.

Those that are challenged often generally are all the more wiser and stronger as you stand as an example.

 

[mavfan2390]

Good read 3 to 4, thanks.

All he (she) is trying to do is follow the Bible which tells us to spread the Word. Even if he has planted only one seed his debating would have been worth it.

Keep spreading the Word!

 

[3 to be 4]

Christ on a CRUTCH, 3 to B.

Do you really imagine there's a Jew in North America -- Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, or other -- who hasn't been assaulted with crap like that which you linked to, for the majority of their LIVES?

Here's a news flash: We've all heard the "good news." You believe in Jesus, we do not. In terms you can understand, that's why they call us "Jews."

Are you aware that in Medieval Europe, when Christians weren't busy just plain murdering or forcibly converting Jews, it was often required for a Church propagandist to preach sermons right in the middle of our religious services? Of course you're not.

Well, those didn't work either.

Please spend more of your time threatening your own children with eternal torment after death, or better, doing works that help others, as suggested elsewhere here.

From what I can tell, the crying need in the heart of Israel for the wisdom of the Christian churches, has been greatly exaggerated.

PFnV

I didnt say that no Jew has been assaulted with stuff. I said that I didnt assault you.
And you dont need to call the link i sent a swear word. Im not swearing at you.

Do you know WHY you dont believe in Jesus? this is all im asking? I have yet heard a response to the substance of the link I sent. Why?

I am well aware of the persucution of Jews, my friend. I am Jewish, and I know all about it. And if you had read the link that topic is well discussed. Those acts were commited by false Christians obviously. Again, focus on ************, not on Christians or Christianity.

Have I threatened you or my children with eternal damnation? No need for anger here PatsFaninVa this is just a discussion.

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.

 

[3 to be 4]

3toB, if you are secure in your belief as a Christian, why do you have this need to foist your point of view on those of other faiths -- singling out Jews in particular?

If you have any knowledge of history, you know the Christian psychological need for Jews to cease to exist in their present, non-Christian form, has caused no end of mischief in the form of forced conversions, pogroms, and theological antisemitism.

Beyond that, the proselytizing to other religious groups displays epic chutzpah. Since it is a prevalent, and by some readings inescapable, "duty" for a Christian to annoy others with Christian needs vis a vis others' beliefs, I think this rude habit is only somehow accepted in society because of its ubiquity.

As to addressing the particulars of your little link, my friend, I've explained rot like this a good thousand times by now to various people at various times in my life. At no time did either party convince the other.

Nor do I walk around asking Christians, "if the Gospel says Jesus will return within the lifetime of those who hear his voice, where the hell is he????"

You have a problem, 3 to B. Jesus was suppose to have been the messiah of the Jews, but by and large he turns out only to be the messiah of non-Jews, until you bring the sword into play. This is why Pauline christianity became the christianity with which you're familiar, and Peter is a much lesser figure. Peter failed in converting the Jews, while Paul was ridiculously successful.

It's a free country, and we do have freedom of speech. But if I tell your kid "believe deep in my heart what I believe, or my friend will set you on fire," it's not protected speech.

This is exactly the approach christian evangelists take when attempting to preach this rot to children without consent of their parents. I know this from experience, and even as a child, wiped the floor with most of them.

We're all grown up here, and it is fine for you to show your ignorance of others' ability to make up their own minds, and annoy us with your own need for Jews to convert -- ain't gonna happen. But I would hope that soon Jewish parents start bringing lawsuits against prosyletizers who cannot limit themselves to populations who have reached the age of consent.

PFnV

Maybe someone once threatened to set you or your kids on fire, but it wasnt me. And it was that kind of evil that kept me from Christ for so long. I was blaming Him for the humans that took his name and did hideous things.

The link was very clear in condemning that kind of behavior from false Christians. And it would be shame if Jews or anybody else made their decision based on that. It would play right into the hands of evil.

As for my insecurity....if i was so insecure, do you think i would risk alientating everyone in my family by telling them the same thing im saying here?

No, Christ has set me free. It wont harm me what my brother, my sister, my cousins, my aunts, my uncles, my boss, my friends, anybody thinks. I put my Lord above them all. He is with me always. So im free to speak the truth.
And secure to admit my vulnerabilities as i did a few weeks ago. To be real. Im still human. I make loads of mistakes. And yes, i sin just like everybody.
But i was never "lost" as I learned some lessons about acting out.

It is my responsibility as a follwer of Christ to spread the good news wherever I can, in a respectful way.

I did threaten anyone with damnation. I didnt call you all names. I didnt say Jews MUST do this or that. I gave a link that gave very well thought out and organized Scriptural reasoning for Jews to believe. This pushed a button with some.

I welcome the challenges so that I may take in your questions and search for honest and reasonable responses. That way I can grow. I dont shrink from that and tell you not to respond. In fact, I didnt force you to read anything.

I understand the cultural difficulty Jews have with this. We were told all our lives how we have to remember this and remember that, and our heritage, and opur people and culture. But very few Jews discuss WHY THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

the Jewish leaders and the politicians had a great deal of motivation to not have the people believe in Christ.

the many witnesses who died a grisly death for not simply recanting their story had motivation too. it was the truth. Who gets themselves tortured to death for a lie.

just putting it out there.............

 

[PatsFanInVa]

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

 

[shmessy]

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

Now THAT moved me.

I must say to 3tobe4, whenever you explain why you believe what you believe you state "because it is written in the scriptures". Have to tell you, my good man, that is about the weakest basis possible. I could say I believe Tom Brady used steroids because "it is written" by some troll on the fan forum.

History is replete with revisionism. He who owns the pen (and the sword) has written most of world history. Don't you find it odd how almost every culture depicts God or Jesus as looking exactly like themselves? How many blonde haired blue eyed (or at least light skinned) Jesus' have been portrayed by Papal artists? African Christians tend to portray Jesus as black. The same can be said for Christianity's and traditional Judaism's depiction of the Creator as a man. A man with emotions. He. Him. Let's face facts - - human beings are incredibly NARCISSISTIC!. Someone in the 1970's, coined my favorite line: "God is black, and is SHE ever angry!"

The depiction of God as "one of us" would perhaps be seen as a great insult and upset the Creator if the Creator actually was so much like us to have emotions. Anthropomorphizing the Creator may make people "feel good and familiar". It is comforting to people. That's what so many religions are about.

In ancient times, with limited science (a bad word to traditional Christians through the ages - - right up to George "no stem cells, ozone or NASA funding" Bush) humans did not understand why the sun set or thunderstorms occurred. Think about it. Before science illuminated our understanding, people could go mad with fear living outside at the whim of nature. People (understandably) craved a reason why these dangerous events occurred. Many cultures invented stories and gods as a means of comforting the masses. Greek and Roman mythology, the Torah, the New Testament, Native American myths, etc. - - all replete with explanations of how God (or gods) were actively making these natural events occur. As John Lennon sang "Whatever Gets You Through the Night, It's Alright".

Well, most of us today don't live in caves or tents anymore. We aren't subject to the ravages of nature on a daily basis. We understand what causes lightning and thunder and floods to occur. It is not a complete mystery like it was to those scared, exposed ancestors. We don't need the crutch of inventing some kindly old man with a beard who floats up in the sky who has a son who lived down here who was conceived in an immaculate fashion. To me that is as ridiculous as my own religion's story of God parting the Red Sea so that the Hebrew slaves could escape Egypt. Today, we would understand it as a Tsunami or hurricane that whipped up sections of a body of water at a narrow point.

If leaning on "well, it is written in the Scriptures" gets you through the night, fine. I choose light and understanding (along with a healthy and humble acceptance that I need not invent stories to explain what I do not know). I love what I know and love knowing that I do not know everything. Perhaps I am not supposed to know all the mysteries of the universe. However, I do pity those who are so upset about not knowing certain mysteries of the universe that they desperately have to invent faerie tales. Just like our ancestral cave dwellers.

 

[shmessy]

Do you know WHY you dont believe in Jesus? this is all im asking? I have yet heard a response to the substance of the link I sent. Why?
____________

Shmessy: I've given you many reasons, the most recent of which is in the post above this
_____________________________-

I am well aware of the persucution of Jews, my friend. I am Jewish
___________-
Shmessy: Pardon me? You are the definition of Christian - - you deeply believe in Christ and the scriptures written by his Disciples, there's no need to be disingenuous. However, you have every right to call yourself Jewish, just as I have every right to call myself Coco Crisp.
__________________________________________________________________
And if you had read the link that topic is well discussed. Those acts were commited by false Christians obviously.
___________________________________________________________

Shmessy: Who decides which Christians are the "false" Christians? Is there some kind of give away? Heck, a few lines ago you called yourself "Jewish" - - who's calling whom the "false Christian" here?
________________________________________________________________
Again, focus on ************, not on Christians or Christianity.
________________________________________________________
Shmessy: Piffle. Someone who focuses on ************ is by definition a "Christian". Certainly not a "Mohammedan"
___________________________________________________________

Have I threatened you or my children with eternal damnation? No need for anger here PatsFaninVa this is just a discussion.

i just posed some reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. The best reason? Because Jesus loves you.
_________________________________________________________-

Shmessy: And so does PatsfaninVa's cat!

___________________________________________

 

[CPF]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened†“freethinking†champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

 

[3 to be 4]

My cat loves me, 3 to B. I do not, however, think my cat is the messiah.

As I've said before, I have no reason to explain my own faith to you. Your faith in Judaism was weak, and you accepted the majority's definition of your peoples' faith. These are two undeniable facts. To wit:

1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S.

That is fine, and it is your choice.

Now, you also believe yourself to have made a personal choice in this regard, quite possibly accompanied by some internal spiritual fireworks. I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert, at the funeral of a good friend, or in the third act of "A Mid Summer Night's Dream" at the Lincoln Center. It is immaterial, from my point of view, how your own story came about, from your subjective point of view.

What you are missing is that I have no need for the healing balm of Christianity, or for that matter of Islam or Buddhism. I also don't "take up the challenge" of every Muslim I meet, to explain what Moses meant when he threatened the Israelites that because of their behavior, God will raise up another prophet like unto Moses, and another people.

The fact is, that other prophet, as far as I'm concerned, ain't Mohammad. (By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof of the mistakes of Christianity, if you wish to continue your spiritual journey.)

The messiah in the Hebrew bible prophecies, is not Jesus -- if it were, we would be living in a messianic age. And point for point, I could point out to you how:
1) Your link is almost certainly written from the "cherrypicker" mentality (i.e., the whole point to the Hebrew scriptures, was to be purloined by gentiles for the benefit of their man-God cult; )
2) The gospel writers clearly knew which prophecies they were trying to get Jesus to conform to, when they recounted his words and acts decades after his death;
3) Jesus himself was also well aware of the messiah "requirements;" and
4) Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not.

If Jesus was of Davidic lineage, for him to say he was to be the "annointed" (masshiach), meant declaring himself the "real" king. That's about it. The masshiach idea took on spiritual dimensions, and the restoration of David's empire took on some fantastic attributes, over the years. But nobody was running around within Judaism talking about replacing study, prayer, and sacrifice (at the time), with worship of a Caesar-like "man-God."

Congratulations on having jettisoned a monotheistic heritage, 3toB. I'm glad it seemed the right thing to do from your point of view. But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage.

PFnV

"1: If your faith in Judaism was in itself fulfilling to you, there would be no reason to become a Christian, and
2: Christianity, it so happens, is the majority religion in the U.S."


1. Being Jewish was not at all fulfilling because the way 99% of Jews practice it, it doesnt accept its own King
2. Maybe in the South. have you tuened on the tube lately? is this really a Christian culture? Being a Christian is hardly easy socially.

"I also have no desire to hear about how you saw the light at a Van Halen concert"

You dont have to hear anything? I didnt make you read anything or respond to anything.

"By the way you might want to look into Islamic proof"

thats a start of a sentence you dont hear everyday. This is your substance filled rebuttal? the Koran?

"Jesus' idea of the role of a messiah might have been Jewish, but the ideas that the gospel writers brought to the table were not."

The Gospel writers allegiance was to their God through His son ************, not the Jewish religion. This is the mentality that had the pharisees say Jesus couldnt be the Son of God because he perform miracles on the Sabbath.
stuck in religion when God is right in front of them.

"But you're not going to make any progress with those of us who know our own heritage."

How do you know? You speak for all Jews?

Again, im just offering up reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus. What do you believe in and why?

Jesus Loves You.

 

[3 to be 4]

Now THAT moved me.

I must say to 3tobe4, whenever you explain why you believe what you believe you state "because it is written in the scriptures". Have to tell you, my good man, that is about the weakest basis possible. I could say I believe Tom Brady used steroids because "it is written" by some troll on the fan forum.

History is replete with revisionism. He who owns the pen (and the sword) has written most of world history. Don't you find it odd how almost every culture depicts God or Jesus as looking exactly like themselves? How many blonde haired blue eyed (or at least light skinned) Jesus' have been portrayed by Papal artists? African Christians tend to portray Jesus as black. The same can be said for Christianity's and traditional Judaism's depiction of the Creator as a man. A man with emotions. He. Him. Let's face facts - - human beings are incredibly NARCISSISTIC!. Someone in the 1970's, coined my favorite line: "God is black, and is SHE ever angry!"

The depiction of God as "one of us" would perhaps be seen as a great insult and upset the Creator if the Creator actually was so much like us to have emotions. Anthropomorphizing the Creator may make people "feel good and familiar". It is comforting to people. That's what so many religions are about.

In ancient times, with limited science (a bad word to traditional Christians through the ages - - right up to George "no stem cells, ozone or NASA funding" Bush) humans did not understand why the sun set or thunderstorms occurred. Think about it. Before science illuminated our understanding, people could go mad with fear living outside at the whim of nature. People (understandably) craved a reason why these dangerous events occurred. Many cultures invented stories and gods as a means of comforting the masses. Greek and Roman mythology, the Torah, the New Testament, Native American myths, etc. - - all replete with explanations of how God (or gods) were actively making these natural events occur. As John Lennon sang "Whatever Gets You Through the Night, It's Alright".

Well, most of us today don't live in caves or tents anymore. We aren't subject to the ravages of nature on a daily basis. We understand what causes lightning and thunder and floods to occur. It is not a complete mystery like it was to those scared, exposed ancestors. We don't need the crutch of inventing some kindly old man with a beard who floats up in the sky who has a son who lived down here who was conceived in an immaculate fashion. To me that is as ridiculous as my own religion's story of God parting the Red Sea so that the Hebrew slaves could escape Egypt. Today, we would understand it as a Tsunami or hurricane that whipped up sections of a body of water at a narrow point.

If leaning on "well, it is written in the Scriptures" gets you through the night, fine. I choose light and understanding (along with a healthy and humble acceptance that I need not invent stories to explain what I do not know). I love what I know and love knowing that I do not know everything. Perhaps I am not supposed to know all the mysteries of the universe. However, I do pity those who are so upset about not knowing certain mysteries of the universe that they desperately have to invent faerie tales. Just like our ancestral cave dwellers.

honestly, i dont really care what Jesus looked like. Because he looks fine to me now.

im sorry you have more faith in your understanding than anything else.

You've written a lot on this topic. THe subject seems to have gone way back with you. Id love to hear more about your background with matters of the spirit and what made you reject it. I know for me, my heart was broken as a kid when my father become an alcoholic. I started blaming God. took me years to get back to a God, let alone Jesus.

What was the one moment when you said "No way. Not for me"?

 

[shmessy]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened†“freethinking†champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

Actually, I find this debate fascinating and very invigorating. What about this free exchange of ideas worries you so much? Does open questioning threaten your belief? Sorry if you have been offended.

There are people who love you.

 

[shmessy]

honestly, i dont really care what Jesus looked like. Because he looks fine to me now.

im sorry you have more faith in your understanding than anything else.

You've written a lot on this topic. THe subject seems to have gone way back with you. Id love to hear more about your background with matters of the spirit and what made you reject it. I know for me, my heart was broken as a kid when my father become an alcoholic. I started blaming God. took me years to get back to a God, let alone Jesus.

What was the one moment when you said "No way. Not for me"?

I've never said "No way, not for me". I have embraced spiritualism with ecstasy. This life is beautiful and I am so fortunate for the love I experience. We are all truly blessed.

Who says I reject "matters of the spirit"? If you read my posts, you'll plainly see that I feel VERY spiritual. Just a different spiritualism than you. Pretty judgemental thinking that your spiritualism is the only one out there, but people from other religions and beliefs do that also, so you're not alone.

I feel for you that you experienced great pain in your family in the past. I have been incredibly fortunate to this point (not through anything that I have done) and have felt no need to "blame God".

Remember, there are people who love you.

 

[3 to be 4]

Actually, I find this debate fascinating and very invigorating. What about this free exchange of ideas worries you so much? Does open questioning threaten your belief? Sorry if you have been offended.

There are people who love you.

Im glad you are invigorated. I am too. this has kind of fired me up to new levels this week. Thank you.

Im not sure, however, he sounded threatened. But he can answer for himself I guess. It was kind of nice to hear another Christian jump into the mix.

 

[Clonamery]

It’s very interesting to me how a simple little post of a link to a web site can set of such a fire storm among all of you “enlightened†“freethinking†champions of tolerance, with nary a shred mind you, of any type of substantial rebuttal. If you disagree and would like to offer a point by point rebuttal of the claims made by the authors of the web site then do so, but please stop the incessant attacks against this mans world view.

PatsFaninVA (that’s way too long , we are going to have to come up with an abbreviation), you say you have slogged this argument out time and again well……either do it again or stop with the innuendo. Do you want to debate some of the issues you, kind of, addressed? Great! Otherwise, let it go.

Shmessy; would you like to debate the veracity and authenticity of Scripture? Evolutionary science vs. I.D? Great! Otherwise, you can do the same.

Clonamery, would you like to champion your pluralistic world view in a serious debate between it and Christianity? Great! Otherwise…….well you know the drill

I don’t understand the need to take pot shots at this guy for honestly expressing what he believes. It would be one thing if you simply cordially disagreed with him, but the open antagonism and sarcasm (kind of like what I posted above), is that really productive, or necessary? Did it make your day? Think before you write, that is one of the great benefits of a forum like this, don’t waste it. Take care, CPF

CPF: I'll let it go if you promise never to tell me what to write, think, feel, believe or say to another human being on this forum because you aren't a God or a Mod. Deal?

 

[3 to be 4]

CPF: I'll let it go if you promise never to tell me what to write, think, feel, believe or say to another human being on this forum because you aren't a God or a Mod. Deal?

What a minute: Fairness Alert!

this side has withstood a fair share off hostility and sarcasm for posting "reasons to believe....." in something.

CPF, thank you jumping into the fray.

Good morning, everyone. It a beautiful day. Jesus Loves You.

 

[shmessy]

What a minute: Fairness Alert!

this side has withstood a fair share off hostility and sarcasm for posting "reasons to believe....." in something.

CPF, thank you jumping into the fray.

Good morning, everyone. It a beautiful day. Jesus Loves You.

Fairness Alert: The posting concerned "Reasons for a certain people to CHANGE their beliefs" - - there's a difference there that you innocently (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here) gloss over.

It IS a beautiful day. And there are people who love you