Discuss the defense

[jah]

Definitely not as that kills the pass rush. The reason we moved to a 43 was to have 2 bigs and 2 pass rushers on the front 4. We didn't move to a 34 on order to go in the opposite direction.
Our 34 will have nink or jones playing de and the other one as OLB switching back and forth due to shifting the dl toward strength.

I think Easley might be the team's solution/ideal alternative to putting Jones or Ninkovich at 3-4 DE in the long term. Just a thought, though.

 

[mayoclinic]

The example fronts you provided often show Wilfork and Siliga as interchangeable players, when the two of them are on the field together quite often. In these cases, it's been Siliga at NT and Wilfork at 3-tech on the strong side. That could obviously flip, if the offense shifts their TE pre-snap.

I think Easley might be the team's solution/ideal alternative to putting Jones or Ninkovich at 3-4 DE in the long term. Just a thought, though.

I think one question is whether having Easley at one 5-tech and Ninkovich/Chandler Jones alternating at the other would be too light in the pants against the run. That would certainly provide the most options in terms of generating pressure. Having Siliga at the NT and Wilfork as one of the 5-techs is a much stouter lineup, but sacrifices some attacking ability. It will be interesting to see how the coaching staff sorts things out as Easley develops.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Easley might be the team's solution/ideal alternative to putting Jones or Ninkovich at 3-4 DE in the long term. Just a thought, though.

I just don't think thats the plan.
Look we are using 43 personnel. The weak DE plays a 5 tech and the strong DE plays a 7. The strong DT moves out to a 5 and the weak DT moves down to NT.
The LBs shift the other direction, so the LLB moves in over the G the MLB moves over the other G and the RLB moves to a 7 tech.
It is simply an overshifted 43.
It is done so the weakside DE can be effective as a pass rusher, at the expense of some beef in the run D.
Its our defense.
Easley will play the 5 tech mostly but lets not forget you can shift the DL and LBs many ways.
What we are discussing is the vanilla version of the base defense, which we used just 21 snaps last week.

 

[Ring 6]

I think one question is whether having Easley at one 5-tech and Ninkovich/Chandler Jones alternating at the other would be too light in the pants against the run. That would certainly provide the most options in terms of generating pressure. Having Siliga at the NT and Wilfork as one of the 5-techs is a much stouter lineup, but sacrifices some attacking ability. It will be interesting to see how the coaching staff sorts things out as Easley develops.

Considering that the base defense is only used 30-40% of the time (I have a feeling we will use more sub this year than ever before) there is not a lot of need to use Easley much in the base.
He is playing DT in the nickel, and was the only DT, playing on the nose in 32 dime.
He rotates in to the base.
Thats plenty of snaps for him, so he can stay fresh to rush on 3rd down, in 2 minute D and when we are protecting a lead.

 

[jah]

I think one question is whether having Easley at one 5-tech and Ninkovich/Chandler Jones alternating at the other would be too light in the pants against the run. That would certainly provide the most options in terms of generating pressure. Having Siliga at the NT and Wilfork as one of the 5-techs is a much stouter lineup, but sacrifices some attacking ability. It will be interesting to see how the coaching staff sorts things out as Easley develops.

For the most part, that would depend on the situation. Probably not a good idea to run that front in a clear running situation, but it could potentially be a 3-4 version of the NASCAR front on passing downs. For a more balanced line, though, I'd expect a front like Easley-Siliga-Wilfork or Chris Jones-Wilfork-Easley (from weak to strong side).

I just don't think thats the plan.
Look we are using 43 personnel. The weak DE plays a 5 tech and the strong DE plays a 7. The strong DT moves out to a 5 and the weak DT moves down to NT.
The LBs shift the other direction, so the LLB moves in over the G the MLB moves over the other G and the RLB moves to a 7 tech.
It is simply an overshifted 43.
It is done so the weakside DE can be effective as a pass rusher, at the expense of some beef in the run D.
Its our defense.
Easley will play the 5 tech mostly but lets not forget you can shift the DL and LBs many ways.
What we are discussing is the vanilla version of the base defense, which we used just 21 snaps last week.

I get that, but what I'm saying is I think Easley might be a player meant to bridge the gap between a beefy DL and a pass-rushing DL/LB. He could be playing any 4-3 DT, 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE depending on the situation and who's standing up or in a 3 point stance.

 

[mayoclinic]

I just don't think thats the plan.
Look we are using 43 personnel. The weak DE plays a 5 tech and the strong DE plays a 7. The strong DT moves out to a 5 and the weak DT moves down to NT.
The LBs shift the other direction, so the LLB moves in over the G the MLB moves over the other G and the RLB moves to a 7 tech.
It is simply an overshifted 43.
It is done so the weakside DE can be effective as a pass rusher, at the expense of some beef in the run D.
Its our defense.
Easley will play the 5 tech mostly but lets not forget you can shift the DL and LBs many ways.
What we are discussing is the vanilla version of the base defense, which we used just 21 snaps last week.

This is the key. Really good stuff, Andy. Everyone hears "3-4" and wants to use traditional 3-4 personnel, but that defeats the entire scheme.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Look we are using 43 personnel. The weak DE plays a 5 tech and the strong DE plays a 7. The strong DT moves out to a 5 and the weak DT moves down to NT.

I thought the strong DT was setting-up at 3tech more often, at least after the first drive where they started in a heavier 34. You did the film breakdown. Did I see that wrong?

 

[Ring 6]

This is the key. Really good stuff, Andy. Everyone hears "3-4" and wants to use traditional 3-4 personnel, but that defeats the entire scheme.

We are using a 34 in a way that I believe no one ever has.
To me Hightower is the key. He looms as a dangerous pass rusher coming from the weakside on the same side as either Jones or Nink. And he does not have to be the 5th rusher to do so, meaning you can play all kinds of coverage from that.
This is really important IMO, because over the years our 1st down defense has been much stouter vs the run than the pass, and very susceptible to play action.

 

[mayoclinic]

We are using a 34 in a way that I believe no one ever has.
To me Hightower is the key. He looms as a dangerous pass rusher coming from the weakside on the same side as either Jones or Nink. And he does not have to be the 5th rusher to do so, meaning you can play all kinds of coverage from that.
This is really important IMO, because over the years our 1st down defense has been much stouter vs the run than the pass, and very susceptible to play action.

I agree. I haven't seen anything like this before. And when Collins is back, there will be even more ability to twist things up.

 

[Ring 6]

I thought the strong DT was setting-up at 3tech more often, at least after the first drive where they started in a heavier 34. You did the film breakdown. Did I see that wrong?

No. Not in the base. But they only played 21 snaps of base all day, a big part of which was on the first drive.
You are probably looking at the 43 nickel, where the DTs played 3 tech.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree. I haven't seen anything like this before. And when Collins is back, there will be even more ability to twist things up.

I'm also very intrigued by the inside blitz possibilities in sub.
Mayo is a tremendous inside blitzer, we have just never used him much that way.
Collins seems to be as well.

My instinct is that in nickel Hightower will move back and forth between DE and LB with Nink and Collins correspondingly splitting the reps, and Jones getting a break now and then too.
Having a front of HT, Easley, Chris J, Jones with Mayo and Collins at LB in the 42 nickel AND having Revis on one side, with Browner jamming the WR on the other (with McCourty over the top) should make our ability to blitz and bring pressure better than I can ever remember.

When you look from the nickel perspective its really exciting to see what the plan may be.
I think we are going to blitz the crap out of Manning when we play Denver.
Unless BB saves that for the playoff meeting, which would be very BB-like.

 

[Ivan]

This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for when i started the thread, I'm getting a much better understanding of what they are up to from reading it. Thanks

 

[SeymourTrophies]

I'm just so glad that we've got a guy who is consistently winning his matchup and getting pressure. Ninkovich has always been that gamer who makes a clutch play here and there, but he hasn't been the guy this front can lean on for the pass rush. Chandler Jones abused the LT, and I don't know if it's because the Vikings LT sucks or what, but Chandler got stonewalled a lot last year by average LT's before sneaking in a sack here and there. He's still got issues against the run, but I'll take a pass rushing playmaker who gives up a little in the run over a guy who is pretty good at everything (for this defense).

Hightower taking on tackles like a seasoned pass rusher is just icing for me.

 

[Ring 6]

For the most part, that would depend on the situation. Probably not a good idea to run that front in a clear running situation, but it could potentially be a 3-4 version of the NASCAR front on passing downs. For a more balanced line, though, I'd expect a front like Easley-Siliga-Wilfork or Chris Jones-Wilfork-Easley (from weak to strong side).

I think you are mixng up base 34 and nickel.

I get that, but what I'm saying is I think Easley might be a player meant to bridge the gap between a beefy DL and a pass-rushing DL/LB. He could be playing any 4-3 DT, 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE depending on the situation and who's standing up or in a 3 point stance.

I don't see it, because to do this we are taking one of our 2 pass rushers either off the field or putting them on coverage.
Easley as the strongside 5 tech could work, but it seems you are suggesting playing him with 2 other 300 lbs.
To simplify, in the base BB has determined that the best way to go is 2 300lbs to stop the run and 2 DE/OLB types to rush the passer.
3 300lbers hampers the pass rush too much, and 3 DE/OLB types will kill the run D, although we have done that in 3rd and long in the past.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm just so glad that we've got a guy who is consistently winning his matchup and getting pressure. Ninkovich has always been that gamer who makes a clutch play here and there, but he hasn't been the guy this front can lean on for the pass rush. Chandler Jones abused the LT, and I don't know if it's because the Vikings LT sucks or what, but Chandler got stonewalled a lot last year by average LT's before sneaking in a sack here and there. He's still got issues against the run, but I'll take a pass rushing playmaker who gives up a little in the run over a guy who is pretty good at everything (for this defense).

Hightower taking on tackles like a seasoned pass rusher is just icing for me.

As a 43 DE, Jones may be in the top 5 in the NFL vs the run.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm just so glad that we've got a guy who is consistently winning his matchup and getting pressure. Ninkovich has always been that gamer who makes a clutch play here and there, but he hasn't been the guy this front can lean on for the pass rush. Chandler Jones abused the LT, and I don't know if it's because the Vikings LT sucks or what, but Chandler got stonewalled a lot last year by average LT's before sneaking in a sack here and there. He's still got issues against the run, but I'll take a pass rushing playmaker who gives up a little in the run over a guy who is pretty good at everything (for this defense).

Hightower taking on tackles like a seasoned pass rusher is just icing for me.

Matt Kalil definitely doesn't suck. He's a better-than-league-average LT. Jones is just a lot better than he is.

And part of the reason why I like Jones so much is that he generates so much pressure without opening up running lanes. There was one play in particular on Sunday where there was a huge gap behind him, and if the RB (Asiata, I think it was) had gotten past him he would have ripped off a 15+ yard gain. But Jones was able to use his length to keep Kalil's hands off of him, disengage, and make a strong tackle for a loss of a yard or two. Plays like that go unheralded, but they're every bit as valuable as a sack. Most edge rushers not only lack the strength/length to disengage and make that tackle, but are so far upfield that they wouldn't have had any shot at making a play in the first place.

 

[Ivan]

This is the key. Really good stuff, Andy. Everyone hears "3-4" and wants to use traditional 3-4 personnel, but that defeats the entire scheme.

That's because we all saw Jones being used as a 5 in Miami and it was a colossal failure, they couldn't stop the run or get pressure so everyone was left wondering what the hell they were up to, I know I was. But I also know that Belichick has had to have had something more in mind while putting this defense together and drafting for a 4-3 but playing a straight up 3-4 wasn't one of them. he has been positioning himself to run exactly what you guys are talking about, which is a series of hybrid packages they can move in and out of, and gathering players with the flexibility to run a variety of packages while still having the ability to play a base defense when necessary. Overall this is still too complex for me to grasp fully without seeing it actually play out on the field but I like what I saw in Minnesota and what i am hearing form you guys in terms of the possibilities it opens up for them going forward.

 

[mgteich]

QUESTION

In our current 3-4, who is playing 1 gap and who is playing 2 gap? That seems more important than whether one the OLB/DE's has his hand on the ground.
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I agree that it seems the Belichick way to have a base front including exactly two 300 or so pound players (Easley slips into that mold). As Easley develops, that gives us WIlfork-Easley with Siliga-Jones as our backups.
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We seem to be set in the base with the obvious 7 starters. We have our DT backups. We hope that we have an improved sub DE in Buchanan.

IMHO, we are very thin is at DE and linebacker with only Buchanan, Moore and Skinner. Is this really sustainable?

I suppose all defenses have their weak points. Our weakness are our lack of depth at DE and LB.

 

[Ring 6]

That's because we all saw Jones being used as a 5 in Miami and it was a colossal failure, they couldn't stop the run or get pressure so everyone was left wondering what the hell they were up to, I know I was. But I also know that Belichick has had to have had something more in mind while putting this defense together and drafting for a 4-3 but playing a straight up 3-4 wasn't one of them. he has been positioning himself to run exactly what you guys are talking about, which is a series of hybrid packages they can move in and out of, and gathering players with the flexibility to run a variety of packages while still having the ability to play a base defense when necessary. Overall this is still too complex for me to grasp fully without seeing it actually play out on the field but I like what I saw in Minnesota and what i am hearing form you guys in terms of the possibilities it opens up for them going forward.

We ran the exact same defense in Miami as we did in Minnesota, except that Collins was out, so Skinner replaced him in base, and in sub HT moved to his spot and Nink played while he sat in sub vs Miami.

This week strength was on Jones side more often, so it was Nink playing the 5 tech.

 

[Ring 6]

QUESTION

In our current 3-4, who is playing 1 gap and who is playing 2 gap? That seems more important than whether one the OLB/DE's has his hand on the ground.
============================

Of course it varies on the play call. It seems that the NT is playing 2 gap, the weak DT is playing 5tech, and the strong DT is playing 2 gap on the T, but we can and do use many combinations.

I agree that it seems the Belichick way to have a base front including exactly two 300 or so pound players (Easley slips into that mold). As Easley develops, that gives us WIlfork-Easley with Siliga-Jones as our backups.
============================

Agree

We seem to be set in the base with the obvious 7 starters. We have our DT backups. We hope that we have an improved sub DE in Buchanan.

IMHO, we are very thin is at DE and linebacker with only Buchanan, Moore and Skinner. Is this really sustainable?

I suppose all defenses have their weak points. Our weakness are our lack of depth at DE and LB.

In the base we are thin at DE and LB, especially with Buchanan down.
In sub, we actually have one extra guy coming out, so we could be fine with any of the 5 missing.