Defining and comparing dynasties

[stinkypete]

Part of the narrative of Super Bowl 51 was the establishment of the Belichick/Brady Patriots of "the NFL's greatest dynasty".

But this has not been a single dynasty. The story that is playing out cuts into three distinct periods.
2001 - 2007, the rise and fall of the old dynasty
2008 - 2011, the slow, competitive rebuild
2012 - ?, the late period dynasty

The bookend dynasty periods make for a fascinating examination. The names from the 2001 - 2007 teams are untouchable in Patriots lore. The current team is another Super Bowl victory away from equaling their accomplishments.

So where do we rank the modern day Patriots with the greats? At this point, the accomplishments of Edelman, Hightower and McCourty and approaching those of Brown, Bruschi and Harrison. Do they ever become equals in the eyes of the fanbase? Can they if they win another title? Do they have to win two, or go undefeated?

It's just amazing that we get to enjoy two extended stays at the top.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Patriotology... The Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom, the New Kingdom?

Artifacts found in Foxborough, Massachusetts, include the so-called "treasure room," where jewel-encrusted rings and silver trophies can be found in layers, interspersed with layers of ball caps and t-shirts. Archaelogists are uncertain, but they believe that the Old Kingdom found its zenith in the years 2001-2004, a time undiluted by strife and controversy. A disastrous campaign in 2007, whose mythic character has been compared to the image of Icarus flying too close to the sun, ended in tragedy - because it was so successful, yet so tragically foiled at the last moment. Thereafter the Horus-like figure identified alternately as TB12 and TFB seems to have undergone a death and resurrection ritual, which was truly completed by 2014. Thereafter, though known as "the Ancient one," he only became more powerful and ascendant, able to guide the New Kingdom through sheer will alone*

Throughout the New Kingdom, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth in Seattle, Atlanta, and as always, New York. Pittsburgh too, but Patriotologists are not certain why.

* Patriotologists are still at odds over the historicity of the ultimate battle of the 2016 campaign, in which the Patriots' death and resurrection is so similar to that of TB12 (or TFB) that most believe the account to be a mythical embellishment on the resurrection of TB12 himself. None doubt the final outcome but the manner in which it was achieved stretches credulity.

 

[deroc5050]

I don't think you can use the term dynasty for the new age NFL. If the same 53 guys were playing for 10-15 years and continued to dominate then yeah its a dynasty. But with FA and Salary Caps.. the teams change so much every year.

Its just called the TB/BB era. Even when they should have been in rebuilding mode they still went to AFC C and even made it to Super Bowls. Great coaching and a great Quarter Back.

 

[oldrover]

Star Wars was my favorite... The Empire Strikes Back was an incomplete classic... but I must say I'm quite enjoying the Return of the Jedi.

 

[1960Pats]

In 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014 & 2016 the Pats went to the SB with the same QB and HC and won it 5 times. In those same seasons and every one in between the Pats had the best record in their division, even the year that Brady was out for the season. It doesn't get any more dynastic than that.

The only dynasty that's still close to the Pats is the 49ers with Montana and Young.

 

[Tony2046]

I don't think you can use the term dynasty for the new age NFL. If the same 53 guys were playing for 10-15 years and continued to dominate then yeah its a dynasty. But with FA and Salary Caps.. the teams change so much every year.

Its just called the TB/BB era. Even when they should have been in rebuilding mode they still went to AFC C and even made it to Super Bowls. Great coaching and a great Quarter Back.

Good point. But I guess in the salary cap era we need to understand that "dynasty" refers to the continuous success of a given coach/QB. Players changed during the 49ers dynasty and there is some argument whether you consider the Young years as part of that dynasty or not. Nevertheless I personally consider all of the BB and Brady years as one dynasty.

In China each dynasty was defined by the emporer in power. In the NFL it's years of continued success which are peppered with the occasional championship and/or SB. IOW, it's not necessarily dependant on a core group of players rather success under a leader. BB and Brady fit that definition. imo

OT: Grammar masters. Is it core of players or corp of players? Thanks

 

[farn]

The 01-03-04 teams did indeed have many of the same key participants : Light, Brady, Willie, Bru, Vrabel... list goes on. I'd easily consider them a dynasty.

This "new" dynasty also has some key members on both SB teams. Though the modern version seems to have more turnover. They would define it clearly with another SB next year - but I am far from predicting anything more than "the team is very solid and has an excellent chance of being in a position to do it" so far removed from 2018.

But, BB has turnover and has mastered the "get looking for a ring". If Calipari (who has mastered the "one & done") wins a championship, he still gets credit.

I mean, after Brady who is the longest tenured player ? Gost ? Hard to make a claim the dynasty goes from 01-17.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

In 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014 & 2016 the Pats went to the SB with the same QB and HC and won it 5 times. In those same seasons and every one in between the Pats had the best record in their division, even the year that Brady was out for the season. It doesn't get any more dynastic than that.

The only dynasty that's still close to the Pats is the 49ers with Montana and Young.

I think it's fair to label the Brady Era within Tom's career, just as one would the Bill Russell Era (which is hands down the greatest dynasty ever).

Greatest football dynasty: it's hard to put anybody ahead of Vince Lombardi's Packers.

Maybe Pats come in second.

 

[BKapatsfan]

Patriotology... The Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom, the New Kingdom?

Artifacts found in Foxborough, Massachusetts, include the so-called "treasure room," where jewel-encrusted rings and silver trophies can be found in layers, interspersed with layers of ball caps and t-shirts. Archaelogists are uncertain, but they believe that the Old Kingdom found its zenith in the years 2001-2004, a time undiluted by strife and controversy. A disastrous campaign in 2007, whose mythic character has been compared to the image of Icarus flying too close to the sun, ended in tragedy - because it was so successful, yet so tragically foiled at the last moment. Thereafter the Horus-like figure identified alternately as TB12 and TFB seems to have undergone a death and resurrection ritual, which was truly completed by 2014. Thereafter, though known as "the Ancient one," he only became more powerful and ascendant, able to guide the New Kingdom through sheer will alone*

Throughout the New Kingdom, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth in Seattle, Atlanta, and as always, New York. Pittsburgh too, but Patriotologists are not certain why.

* Patriotologists are still at odds over the historicity of the ultimate battle of the 2016 campaign, in which the Patriots' death and resurrection is so similar to that of TB12 (or TFB) that most believe the account to be a mythical embellishment on the resurrection of TB12 himself. None doubt the final outcome but the manner in which it was achieved stretches credulity.

This is great

 

[jboston19]

I've actually always loved Bob Ryan's definition of a dynasty in that it's different players on a team dominating over a prolonged eras. He claims the only three true dynasties in sports are the Yankees, Canadians, and Celtics.

With that being said, with this run being almost two decades long and counting, and another Superbowl appearance just over twenty years ago, the Patriots certainly are approaching that level.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Patriotology... The Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom, the New Kingdom?

Artifacts found in Foxborough, Massachusetts, include the so-called "treasure room," where jewel-encrusted rings and silver trophies can be found in layers, interspersed with layers of ball caps and t-shirts. Archaelogists are uncertain, but they believe that the Old Kingdom found its zenith in the years 2001-2004, a time undiluted by strife and controversy. A disastrous campaign in 2007, whose mythic character has been compared to the image of Icarus flying too close to the sun, ended in tragedy - because it was so successful, yet so tragically foiled at the last moment. Thereafter the Horus-like figure identified alternately as TB12 and TFB seems to have undergone a death and resurrection ritual, which was truly completed by 2014. Thereafter, though known as "the Ancient one," he only became more powerful and ascendant, able to guide the New Kingdom through sheer will alone*

Throughout the New Kingdom, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth in Seattle, Atlanta, and as always, New York. Pittsburgh too, but Patriotologists are not certain why.

* Patriotologists are still at odds over the historicity of the ultimate battle of the 2016 campaign, in which the Patriots' death and resurrection is so similar to that of TB12 (or TFB) that most believe the account to be a mythical embellishment on the resurrection of TB12 himself. None doubt the final outcome but the manner in which it was achieved stretches credulity.

Patriotologists are likewise puzzled as to how the team, all the way up until 2017, was unable to take its proper place among the legendary great franchises in American football history. Evidence suggests that unlike their fellow dynasties in Green Bay, San Francisco, Dallas, Pittsburgh and even fellow Super Bowl-winning AFL teams like Kansas City and Oakland, the Patriots inexplicably abandoned the logo and uniform which they, along with the above mentioned, settled on and stuck with since the early sixties, the acknowledged beginning of the Modern Era, in favor of "James Busch Orthwein's marketing team's decision after five minutes in Foxboro after being assigned there by the league to institute a total makeover, due to their complete agreement with the league's, national and local media's depiction of the franchise as 'broken and ridiculed', such that exceptional and heroic players, coaches and loyal fans of thirty-three years were utterly irrelevant, worthy of utter disparagement, or otherwise basically nonexistent; thus at their request NFL Properties hastily conjuring up an ugly, humiliating corpse-like impostor, before Coach Parcells (instrumental and essential in the team's ultimate rise to the top) arrival later that year, and a year previous to Orthwein's final offer to buy out the Kraft lease and move the team to St. Louis."

Further discovery reveals that, in 2002, even with clearly a generational quarterback in hand to potentially lead the team to unprecedented glory and an initial world title already in hand, and the merciful departure by then of Orthwein, Parcells, Bledsoe and the old stadium, Kraft persisted in clutching onto the classless, tasteless, lifeless image named for its strikingly inappropriate image of a "flying elvis", virtually identical to its ancestor which was booed unanimously out of a packed Schaefer Stadium at a game in 1979, in favor of the team's real, classic, and superior logo.

The injustice done to Brady preventing him from taking his rightful place alongside Starr, Dawson, Namath, Staubach, Bradshaw and Montana seems to have been caught and corrected before the 2017 season, just in time for the team's last three championships under Brady. What or who exactly influenced owner Kraft to restore the team's identity is unclear; only three cryptic initials appear, which so far baffle Patriotologists: "A P F"...

 

[NormZauchin]

Patriotology... The Old Kingdom, the Middle Kingdom, the New Kingdom?

Artifacts found in Foxborough, Massachusetts, include the so-called "treasure room," where jewel-encrusted rings and silver trophies can be found in layers, interspersed with layers of ball caps and t-shirts. Archaelogists are uncertain, but they believe that the Old Kingdom found its zenith in the years 2001-2004, a time undiluted by strife and controversy. A disastrous campaign in 2007, whose mythic character has been compared to the image of Icarus flying too close to the sun, ended in tragedy - because it was so successful, yet so tragically foiled at the last moment. Thereafter the Horus-like figure identified alternately as TB12 and TFB seems to have undergone a death and resurrection ritual, which was truly completed by 2014. Thereafter, though known as "the Ancient one," he only became more powerful and ascendant, able to guide the New Kingdom through sheer will alone*

Throughout the New Kingdom, there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth in Seattle, Atlanta, and as always, New York. Pittsburgh too, but Patriotologists are not certain why.

* Patriotologists are still at odds over the historicity of the ultimate battle of the 2016 campaign, in which the Patriots' death and resurrection is so similar to that of TB12 (or TFB) that most believe the account to be a mythical embellishment on the resurrection of TB12 himself. None doubt the final outcome but the manner in which it was achieved stretches credulity.

Patriotologists were only able to find the site because a small boy, playing with his dog, stumbled across a metal object which turned out to be the top of a tall, tower-like structure, the purpose of which has yet to be understood. Some say it is an obelisk or stela, yet others, not taken seriously in the Patriotology community, insist it is something called a "lighthouse," despite knowledge of ancient practices of only locating lighthouses adjacent to large bodies of water.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Archeologists were only able to find the site because a small boy, playing with his dog, stumbled across a metal object which turned out to be the top of a tall, tower-like object, the purpose of which has yet to be understood. Some say it is an obelisk or stela, yet others, not taken seriously in the archeology community, insist it is something called a "lighthouse," despite knowledge of ancient practices of only locating lighthouses adjacent to large bodies of water.

So ya thought the lighthouse was dumb? So there!!

 

[scout]

Dynasty began in 2001 and continues......Patriots probably came within one play of winning 3 Superbowls in a row. Looking forward to next season.

 

[deroc5050]

Good point. But I guess in the salary cap era we need to understand that "dynasty" refers to the continuous success of a given coach/QB. Players changed during the 49ers dynasty and there is some argument whether you consider the Young years as part of that dynasty or not. Nevertheless I personally consider all of the BB and Brady years as one dynasty.

In China each dynasty was defined by the emporer in power. In the NFL it's years of continued success which are peppered with the occasional championship and/or SB. IOW, it's not necessarily dependant on a core group of players rather success under a leader. BB and Brady fit that definition. imo

OT: Grammar masters. Is it core of players or corp of players? Thanks

Yeah thats fine I have no problem with the word dynasty or era. Dynasty sounds better. If you want to use the coach and QB as the pre requisite for a Dynasty thats fine by me.

I just call it the TB/BB era.. The greatest run a coach and qb have ever had in the Super Bowl era.

 

[1960Pats]

I think it's fair to label the Brady Era within Tom's career, just as one would the Bill Russell Era (which is hands down the greatest dynasty ever).

Greatest football dynasty: it's hard to put anybody ahead of Vince Lombardi's Packers.

Maybe Pats come in second.

The Pats have won just as many titles as GB did during their run from 1961-67. The difference, and it's huge, is that it took 9 playoff wins (1-1-2-2-3) for GB to win those titles and it took 15 wins (3-3-3-3-3) for the Patriots. GB also missed the playoffs half the time in Lombardi's 10 years.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Good point. But I guess in the salary cap era we need to understand that "dynasty" refers to the continuous success of a given coach/QB. Players changed during the 49ers dynasty and there is some argument whether you consider the Young years as part of that dynasty or not. Nevertheless I personally consider all of the BB and Brady years as one dynasty.

In China each dynasty was defined by the emporer in power. In the NFL it's years of continued success which are peppered with the occasional championship and/or SB. IOW, it's not necessarily dependant on a core group of players rather success under a leader. BB and Brady fit that definition. imo

OT: Grammar masters. Is it core of players or corp of players? Thanks

Core group of players in this use, like the center of the tootsie roll pop or the Earth. The "core" is the chunk in the middle, so to speak...

But it's "receiving corps," like "Marine Corps." Thank you for asking, because I keep seeing people say things like "receiving core" and "linebacking core," which is usually not meant. (in this use they're saying "the group of linebackers/receivers," not the 2 or three "core players" among linebackers or receivers.)

Also:

"One and the same," not "one in the same"

and

"Porous" is not a synonym for "poor." It means "permeable," like a sponge or something. So you can have a "porous" defense (which everything can get through,) but it makes no sense to say "our runningbacks were so porous last night there was no way to kill the clock" (for example.)

Okay... sorry... you axed.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Patriotologists were only able to find the site because a small boy, playing with his dog, stumbled across a metal object which turned out to be the top of a tall, tower-like object, the purpose of which has yet to be understood. Some say it is an obelisk or stela, yet others, not taken seriously in the Patriotology community, insist it is something called a "lighthouse," despite knowledge of ancient practices of only locating lighthouses adjacent to large bodies of water.

Even more puzzling is the abandoned nearby site of Tel el Schaefer. Patriotologists are uncertain why, at the outset of the Old Kingdom period, the cultic center of Schaefer was violently demolished, but the dating of nearby Tel el R'Zor seems to place its building as simultaneous with the old site's demolition.

This curious apparent abandonment and demolition has been likened by some to the "Potlach" ceremonies of Indian tribes in the Northwest United States, who showed their wealth and power by destroying or giving away their possessions.

In any event, the Old Kingdom glyph of the Flying Elvis seems to have sprung into existence prior to the abandonment of the Schaefer site, although a different glyph representing struggle but never victory in the form of the god P'tah Patriot, is seen scowling up from some discarded memorabilia. Unfortunately P'tah Patriot was never noticed or feared outside the Schaefer cultic center; his likeness seems to have been venerated, but only engendered a certain pugnacious spirit but never dominance. Its intermittent use during the entire dynastic period seems to have been a nostalgic exercise to include those who clung to old ways and old glyphs, uncertain of how to draw inspiration from later symbols that struck fear throughout the known football world.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The 01-03-04 teams did indeed have many of the same key participants : Light, Brady, Willie, Bru, Vrabel... list goes on. I'd easily consider them a dynasty.

This "new" dynasty also has some key members on both SB teams. Though the modern version seems to have more turnover. They would define it clearly with another SB next year - but I am far from predicting anything more than "the team is very solid and has an excellent chance of being in a position to do it" so far removed from 2018.

But, BB has turnover and has mastered the "get looking for a ring". If Calipari (who has mastered the "one & done") wins a championship, he still gets credit.

I mean, after Brady who is the longest tenured player ? Gost ? Hard to make a claim the dynasty goes from 01-17.

All Patriotology aside, cut it out. Same QB, same coach... same philosophy, that of nearly interchangeable parts playing their roles (doing their job), and buying into the NE way of winning games.

Trying to name specific guys and demand that most stay there for their entire careers, you might as well say "all claims to dynasty ended in the free-agency/salary cap era."

This has been a continuum of teams for 15 years built on (and winning with) the same model. You start it at Mo Lewis' hit on Drew Bledsoe. You end it when the Patriots cease to be in annual contention for the SB (just like including Young in the 49ers "Dynasty" years).

Whatever definitions we like... I think that SO FAR, last Sunday was the highest high we've felt (and there have been a lot of them).

 

[Tony2046]

Core group of players in this use, like the center of the tootsie roll pop or the Earth. The "core" is the chunk in the middle, so to speak...

But it's "receiving corps," like "Marine Corps." Thank you for asking, because I keep seeing people say things like "receiving core" and "linebacking core," which is usually not meant. (in this use they're saying "the group of linebackers/receivers," not the 2 or three "core players" among linebackers or receivers.)

Also:

"One and the same," not "one in the same"

and

"Porous" is not a synonym for "poor." It means "permeable," like a sponge or something. So you can have a "porous" defense (which everything can get through,) but it makes no sense to say "our runningbacks were so porous last night there was no way to kill the clock" (for example.)

Okay... sorry... you axed.

Thanks. Excellent explanation.

I should of PM'd you to begin with.