Borges: Condon puts Pats on call

[MoLewisrocks]

Thanks, because that point is well worth noting.

When Borges sticks to X's and O's analysis, he is capable of being the best football writer there is in New England. Unfortunately he gets sidetracked far too often on two topics for which he is incredibly biased: anything to do with Bill Belichick, and anything to do with players, agents and unions in regards to teams, owners, and executives.

I haven't read the article yet; but for anybody that does, Borges' history of employee (players) versus management (GM) truly does have to be taken into consideration.

The title change was unnecessary media sensitivity overkill. Borges just delivered a message, and it wasn't a particularly unwelcome one. Sometimes in life if you actually you know want to know what's going on you may have to or be well served to listen to people you may not like...

 

[Ron Sellers]

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

In my opinion that's revisionist history, overstating the facts, and finding the grass to be greener on the other side - all rolled into one.

Parcells had a history of accepting jobs where the team vastly underachieved and at the same time had nowhere to go but up. Then at the first sign that the team appeared to be about to take a step backwards, he bailed. Blameless, he often left the team in poor cap shape and in need of a complete overhaul.

Credit Parcells for drafting players like Law and Bruschi, but when did they develop into good players? After Parcells was gone. Many were ready to consider McGinest to be a bust and ready to run him out of town after five seasons. As for Carroll, the only notable person he drafted was Kevin Faulk.

The system has resulted in eleven consecutive winning seasons, with nine division titles, five conference championships and three titles. Much of the offense and nearly all of the defense has been rebuilt on the fly; unlike any other team doing so, this one found a way to reload while at the same time remaining highly competitive. But that's not good enough, and the team should emulate who, the Raiders, Redskins and Jets business plan instead?

Yes, losing the Super Bowl stings. But to me they didn't underachieve the last two years; they vastly overachieved to get as far as they did while rebuilding.

I swear some people here would prefer the Pats had not remained competitive while rebuilding, and bottom out with fewer than nine wins over the course of two years just so they could get early big name draft picks. Of course, that would also mean they have something entirely foreign to them to complain about - a losing season.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Looks like we'll soon see which matters more to Lloyd: playing for McDaniels or getting top dollar. I don't begrudge him his choice either way, but I sure hope that he picks the former.

 

[Elijah T.]

Marques Colston NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Marques Colston, WR for the New Orleans Saints at NFL.com

Two separate sites, including NFL.com, have Colston at 16/15/14.



No, I'm not. I was responding to your claim. You don't get to argue that catch totals don't matter over the middle, where they actually DO matter, but that they matter on middle-deep stuff, where they matter less than yardage and YPC. And both players play basically the same way, so I don't see how that's "different benefits".



Lloyd's been more productive than Colston in the last two seasons, and he's done it in the Patriots/McDaniels system. He's an injury risk, as is Colston, but it's not microfracture and he's been healthy for two straight seasons. I'm not saying that he's the cat's meow, just that he's a better fit, for the money, and that I don't like the baggage that comes with Colston's knees.



I understand why people like Colston. If he wasn't likely to get one of the 2-3 largest contracts among the FA WRs this year, I'd look at him more favorably. Given the likely money asked and length of contract, though, he's off my board, so to speak.

Espn has him producing a catch in every game of 2009.

Marques Colston Game By Game Stats and Performance - New Orleans Saints - ESPN

As far as different benefits... Colston is bigger (6'4 225), younger (29 when season statrts) while Lloyd has direct experience in McDaniels' system and has stated he wants to be here.

They both line up at split end and have shown they can run the deep half of the field and force double coverage.

Both of them are productive, reliable, outside receivers.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Looks like we'll soon see which matters more to Lloyd: playing for McDaniels or getting top dollar. I don't begrudge him his choice either way, but I sure hope that he picks the former.

I see no reason why BB can not resign Welker and have the dollars for Lloyd. Let's not forget the Ocho Sucko money that will free up as well when we dump him.

If Condon tries to play games with BB, then we move on to Wayne.

 

[Deus Irae]

Espn has him producing a catch in every game of 2009.

Marques Colston Game By Game Stats and Performance - New Orleans Saints - ESPN

Yes.... 16/15/14

16 in 2009, 15 in 2010, 14 in 2011

Your initial claim was that he hadn't missed a game in 3 1/2 seasons.

As far as different benefits... Colston is bigger (6'4 225), younger (29 when season statrts) while Lloyd has direct experience in McDaniels' system and has stated he wants to be here.

They both line up at split end and have shown they can run the deep half of the field and force double coverage.

Come on, man.... your own words:

As far as stats and variables, you're splitting hairs. Both players offer different benefits.

Both of them are productive, reliable, outside receivers.

Lots of receivers are productive and reliable. That's not the issue here.

 

[stcjones]

Respectfully disagree. We are NOT ok at the WR position going into next season. We have (I think!) Wes Welker PERIOD. Branch is basically done.....ocho is a BUST ...and that is it. Obviously we are great at TE.

We NEED help big time at WR......One of primary reasons why the gints win the SB
: Their WR are big game playmakers that made the plays when they needed to..
Ours were terrible this year with exception of welk (yeah obviously he blew the one catch that was a killer there....But he is awesome. We need to drop ochostinko and branch and bring in some big time talent for Brady to work with....

The pats (if they franchise Welker) are already in good shape with their combination of receivers and tight ends. They are not going to break the bank for Lloyd. If he wants to come here for reasonable money great, if not sign with another team. Teams also know his production is limited when he is not playing under McDaniels. That could hurt his chances of getting a big pay day.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Looks like we'll soon see which matters more to Lloyd: playing for McDaniels or getting top dollar. I don't begrudge him his choice either way, but I sure hope that he picks the former.

Guys like Bruschi who take a hometown discount to play for the Pats are extremely rare.

Unless Lloyd has undying love for McDaniels,He is going where the money is and having Condon as an agent adds that much more to big dollars.

Personally I think if the asking price gets out of hand,I think we forget a big name WR in FA and take our chances with another 2nd round WR......sooner or later one will work out.

 

[stcjones]

Colston coming here is a pipe dream....
.....No way Saints let this Guy get away...

Espn has him producing a catch in every game of 2009.

Marques Colston Game By Game Stats and Performance - New Orleans Saints - ESPN

As far as different benefits... Colston is bigger (6'4 225), younger (29 when season statrts) while Lloyd has direct experience in McDaniels' system and has stated he wants to be here.

They both line up at split end and have shown they can run the deep half of the field and force double coverage.

Both of them are productive, reliable, outside receivers.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Colston doesn't lollygag on the injury report, and Payton apparently discourages players from doing that, but he has been injured a lot apart from his knees even. Broken collar bone in week one cost him 2 weeks this year and a one catch week when he came back. Had a scope late in 2010 and missed a week. Missed 4 games in 2008 due to a thumb injury. So again, all that plus 5 off season knee surgeries. He's a tough kid, but he's got some scars to prove it. He will be 29 in June, but his knees may be closer to 31...

 

[vyrago]

You wouldn't be making this argument if Asante Samuel intercepted a ball that went right into his bread basket in February of 2008 or Welker caught the ball two weeks ago.

Wasn't it off his fingertips? He should have made that int, but the catch wasn't THAT easy.

 

[Ivan]

Colston coming here is a pipe dream....
.....No way Saints let this Guy get away...

The Saints may well have to franchise Brees. I don't really know their cap situation and would guess they will do all they can to keep Colston but sometimes that's out of a team's control, especially when they have to franchise their best player.

 

[Deus Irae]

Colston coming here is a pipe dream....
.....No way Saints let this Guy get away...

Brees/Nicks/Colston

3 top guys, 1 franchise tag

 

[Ron Sellers]

Respectfully disagree. We are NOT ok at the WR position going into next season. We have (I think!) Wes Welker PERIOD. Branch is basically done.....ocho is a BUST ...and that is it. Obviously we are great at TE.

We NEED help big time at WR......One of primary reasons why the gints win the SB
: Their WR are big game playmakers that made the plays when they needed to..
Ours were terrible this year with exception of welk (yeah obviously he blew the one catch that was a killer there....But he is awesome. We need to drop ochostinko and branch and bring in some big time talent for Brady to work with....

Our wide receivers were not on the field going head to head against their wide receivers, so in my opinion the comparison doesn't really mean all that much - without mentioning you're focusing strictly on only one game.

Based on your assessment, the better conclusion would be that what the Patriots need to do is upgrade their pass rush and upgrade their pass coverage.

When you look at it as 'pass catchers' rather than just wide receivers so that you're comparing apples to apples (i.e., a 3WR/1TE offense to a 2WR/2TE offense), the picture being painted is not nearly as bleak as it is being portrayed to be.

The way the WR situation is portrayed on this forum one would never guess that this team finished 4th in points scored, or passed for over 5000 yards.

 

[RIpats88]

Our wide receivers were not on the field going head to head against their wide receivers, so in my opinion the comparison doesn't really mean all that much - without mentioning you're focusing strictly on only one game.

Based on your assessment, the better conclusion would be that what the Patriots need to do is upgrade their pass rush and upgrade their pass coverage.

When you look at it as 'pass catchers' rather than just wide receivers so that you're comparing apples to apples (i.e., a 3WR/1TE offense to a 2WR/2TE offense), the picture being painted is not nearly as bleak as it is being portrayed to be.

The way the WR situation is portrayed on this forum one would never guess that this team finished 4th in points scored, or passed for over 5000 yards.

Except that our offense has been far from elite in the playoffs in a long tome and that's where its mattered..we went far using the dink and dunk offense without a traditional Wr. But in theend against good defenses when teams can get physical and take out those short field guys we have no one to draw the safeties to the sidelines or deep.....if bb didn't think it was an issue he wouldn't have thrown 6million$ at ocho

 

[Deus Irae]

Our wide receivers were not on the field going head to head against their wide receivers, so in my opinion the comparison doesn't really mean all that much - without mentioning you're focusing strictly on only one game.

Based on your assessment, the better conclusion would be that what the Patriots need to do is upgrade their pass rush and upgrade their pass coverage.

When you look at it as 'pass catchers' rather than just wide receivers so that you're comparing apples to apples (i.e., a 3WR/1TE offense to a 2WR/2TE offense), the picture being painted is not nearly as bleak as it is being portrayed to be.

The way the WR situation is portrayed on this forum one would never guess that this team finished 4th in points scored, or passed for over 5000 yards.

You're being unfair in trying to lump the tight ends into a discussion about the wide receivers as if they are all of a kind.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Except that our offense has been far from elite in the playoffs in a long tome and that's where its mattered..we went far using the dink and dunk offense without a traditional Wr. But in theend against good defenses when teams can get physical and take out those short field guys we have no one to draw the safeties to the sidelines or deep.....if bb didn't think it was an issue he wouldn't have thrown 6million$ at ocho

When you get into the playoffs you are playing the best of the best; it's not reasonable to assume your team will continue to play at the same level and win as easily as they did against lesser teams. If you play an elite team that is primarily strong on defense, the normal expectation would be that you will probably score fewer points. If you play an elite team that is primarily strong on offense, the normal expectation would be that you will probably allow more points.

If it was as simple as you are saying then all the Pats had to do was send somebody with some speed like Slater or Underwood on a go route every down, just to draw coverage away from everyone else. Also don't forget that deep pass plays take much longer to develop; you're exposing Brady to more hits, more chance for strip sacks, lower chances of completions and higher chances of interceptions.

As for Ochocinco, I never understood the move other than he was supposed to replace Branch in the same role. Ochocinco at this point in his career is not a speed burning deep threat either, and that was apparent a year ago in Cincinnati.

I think many see the addition of a fast receiver as some sort of magic pill that will guarantee a championship, and I just don't see it that way. In my opinion upgrading the pass coverage and upgrading the pass rush is much more important to winning - especially, as you noted, in the playoffs.

 

[robbomango]

I was looking at offensive receiving production the other day between NO, GB and posted these stats sided by side to get a better picture of the depth compared to NE.

It's petty amazing what TB accomplished given little backfield receiving production and no intermediate to deep threat. NO and GB have the full receiving package in spades in comparison.

with the 2TE 2WR set ideally that 2nd WR would be the intermediate to deep player, To Rons point.

 

[DaBruinz]

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

Revisionist history at it's best.

Tom Brady, Matt Light, Stephen Neal, Mike Vrabel, Antowain Smith, Corey Dillon, Mike Compton, Joe Andruzzi, Anthony Pleasant, Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork, Charles Johnson, Deion Branch, David Givens, Richard Seymour, Greg Robinson-Randall, Jarvis Green, Dan Koppen, Rodney Harrison.

Tom Ashworth, Russ Hochstein, Larry Izzo, Damon Huard, Matt Chatham, Bobby Hamilton, Patrick Pass, Grey Reugemer, Lonnie Paxton, Bryan Cox, Marc Edwards, Heath Evans, Roman Phifer, JR Redmond, Otis Smith, Christian Fauria, Larry Centers, Fred Baxter, Don Davis, Daniel Graham.

The Parcells/Pete Carroll Contributions were:

Parcells:
Law, Bruschi, Milloy, Johnson, Bledsoe, Vinatieri

Carroll:
Tebucky Jones, Greg Spires, Kevin Faulk, Damien Woody


To say that the SBs were won with the team that Parcells/Carroll built is a bold-faced lie.

The Parcells and Carroll tenures provided some pieces, but the TEAM was assembled by Belichick. That's plain and clear to anyone.

 

[Patsfan1102]

Wasn't it off his fingertips? He should have made that int, but the catch wasn't THAT easy.

Welker catch was much easier then the INT. It was easy money I make that catch 9 out of 10.