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Another Cautionary Tale: Sapp is broke...


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I can't believe he blamed their problems on the gold standard. Waste not thy breath, Deus.

Ummmm, he didn't blame the gold standard, he used it to illustrate that one can make a smart decision that happens to not work out due to other factors.
 
Ummmm, he didn't blame the gold standard, he used it to illustrate that one can make a smart decision that happens to not work out due to other factors.

OMG I LOVE YOU SNAKE EYES. Glad to see there is at least one other financially intelligent member of this forum
 
I didn't blame the gold standard for their debt or bankruptcy, it's just that some of the people he listed lived so long ago I just don't see how you can compare those two economies. On a side note, I don't consider Donald Trump an intelligent individual, he inherited his money and went bankrupt. Sure he has money now but lets be serious, Trump is a joke. Seriously though I don't really know what got into you, on the last page you were agreeing with me now you've jumped down my throat telling me I know nothing. Just realize that I have not been insulting either of you, I'm just trying to state the facts, while you two are constantly calling me naive or a clown. I'd love to know what your profession is because you and deusche act like experts on every possible area. I read a lot of posts on here, and although I don't have a ton of posts I see everything that's posted, and you my friend are quite full of yourself. Are you like chairmen of the FED? Bernanke is that you???

Responding to both of your posts.

You started the line of argument when you compared real estate as an investment favorably to "jewelry" and others. I pointed out that, while volatile, jewelry has outperformed real estate in the last six years. I also stated (twice) that if your point was that, over time, real estate is an investment that will protect an investor against inflation or perhaps yield a small return, you were right. It seems to me, with your lengthy but reasonably accurate re-hashing of the events of 2007--09, that you're now trying to have it both ways on that front. Please re-read what I wrote originally: it is completely consistent with what I just said.

The rest is in your imagination.

As for your personal attacks, I have only attacked your ideas, drawing in one instance your clarification of your now-explained but otherwise incomprehensible comment on the gold standard with a sarcastic reference thereto. If you re-read what you wrote originally, it is open to the interpretation that I assigned to it.

Finally, I am quite comfortable with my reputation as a poster out here and will offer no further defense thereof to you.
 
Here's a thought....how about investing your millions in something fairly safe like...ummm...cash.
 
The problem with all of these guys, is that they want to play the "Big Shot" and they throw their money around. I know a couple of guys who played a few years in the NFL and during their playing days, they were OK. BUT after they were out of the league, they began to throw their money around so that they could still feel like a Big Shot. Its OK to pay a few grand in bar bills every week when your making 400,000 a year, but once that stops, they don't stop spending.

Look Real Estate is usually a safe bet, however, the fraud involved with HUD loans and homes, (all you had to do is watch the Sopranos, they spelled out the entire scam for you), tanked the market, the idiots in Congress forced the banks to make loans to people who had no business getting loans, and the only people who really got screwed was us poor saps who pay their bills and lived within their means.

Sapp is the ultimate showman, and I'm sure that he was "making it rain" and now he is just another in a long line of broke guys.

All of them should go to the Larry Homes School of money managemet. In a sport where the boxer almost always ends up broke. Holmes kept the Don Kings of the world out of his checkbook, took his cash and went back to Easten, PA, lived an unlavish life, built schools and churches and still kept all his cash.

Buying "bling" is not an investment portfolio.
 
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All of them should go to the Larry Holmes School of money managemet. In a sport where the boxer almost always ends up broke. Holmes kept the Don Kings of the world out of his checkbook, took his cash and went back to Easten, PA, lived an unlavish life, built schools and churches and still kept all his cash.

.

Part of that is because Holmes had a manager/agent who wasn't out to screw him but to 'zealously represent" his client unlike many of the boxing guys today and set him up with a diversified portfolio to ensure that he was set for life, like Bob Woolf did when he represented many of the Celtics from the 60's to the 80's.
Getting way OT here but my wife is from Easton and she tells stories of Holmes training by running up and down the hills of Easton with a pallet(? right word?) or a roll of carpet on his shoulders to build up strength. He kept his small town mindset and didn't get blinded by the glitz...
Many of these athletes need an accountant, a financial planner and an attorney to keep an eye on each other and to act as a check and balance system to protect them...
 
Ummmm, he didn't blame the gold standard, he used it to illustrate that one can make a smart decision that happens to not work out due to other factors.

(We're way, way OT now. But, here goes.)

No, actually LAWFIRM explained himself on that point and I accepted his explanation, though it did look silly as he originally stated it. He was arguing that Deus' examples were not fully relevant because they occurred at a different time and under different circumstances; so , he was using the Gold Standard as a "marker" for a bygone era. (Of course, if you consider that the Bretton Woods agreement was operative until finally killed by Nixon in 1971, the time frame does reach into the modern era, but basically his narrow point in that regard was valid.)

You, however, seem to be arguing that there is a connection between the Gold Standard and decision making, about which I would be curious. What is your point?

Ironically, there are some, with whom I do not necessarily agree but whose points are not without merit, who suggest that a return to the Gold Standard is warranted today by the Fed's printing of trillions of dollars of cash to keep the financial sector liquid, but doing so in such a way that the money created never actually enters the Money Supply to spur growth, lest it create inflation. It's a sleight of hand that seems to abrogate the authority of congress to authorize debt and that has raised the concern of many Libertarian observers. But, talking about OT!
 
You, however, seem to be arguing that there is a connection between the Gold Standard and decision making, about which I would be curious. What is your point?

No, I'm not, forget about the Gold standard for a minute, if you have 99% odds of success on a particular investment, should you go for it? I would say yes, now keep in mind you can still land on that 1% and lose, but does that mean it was a stupid choice?
 
No, I'm not, forget about the Gold standard for a minute, if you have 99% odds of success on a particular investment, should you go for it? I would say yes, now keep in mind you can still land on that 1% and lose, but does that mean it was a stupid choice?

We're still way OT but that's actually a very good and quite complex question.

The answer depends on how "success" is defined for the "particular investment," on the time horizon envisaged and also, and most importantly, on what is commonly called one's "Risk Profile."

So, for the sake of discussion, if "success" on a particular investment is defined as a return one or two points in excess of the return on the market as a whole over a three year period and if you had an opportunity to invest that could reasonably be demonstrated to have a 99% chance of delivering that return, then, sure, you'd make the investment if you didn't have other, better opportunities (in other words, if your opportunity cost wasn't too high) and if the amount risked was consistent with your risk profile.

But investment returns are seldom measured in terms of single data points. Instead, they are measured in terms of ranges of possible returns around a mean return. So, in most cases, the investment return would be presented something like: "the mean return you can expect on this investment over the next three years is x%, at a 95% or 97% confidence interval." You then have to look at the standard deviation of the distribution of possible returns around that mean and determine if you are willing to make the investment based on your own profile.

Why is that important?

It's important because there were literally dozens of models created by otherwise very intelligent young people on Wall Street that basically said that what happened in 2008 could indeed happen, but could only happen at the most extreme reaches of the distribution of possible outcomes, or, at 30 or 40 sigma.

An event "at 30 or 40 sigma" is geek talk for: there isn't much of a chance of this happening, but if it does, we're ****ed.

As it turns out, we were ****ed.

As I tell my students in my Graduate Risk Management course: "Life happens at 30 sigma, not where our models say it will most likely happen."

And, we were ****ed because all of the things that had to happen for the worst case scenario to occur did: the government, through pressure from the WH and Congress on Fannie and Freddie, gave unconscionable incentives to Financial Institutions to make really bad housing loans (including "Liar Loans"), many people took out loans their obligations under which they knew they would not be able to repay when the ARM converted on the assumption that the increase in the property's value would be so great as to enable them to refinance or get out, others took out loans they couldn't afford because they assumed they could hang on to a piece of property for a year and sell it at a large profit, somehow squeezing by in the interim, still others simply bought more house than they could afford because they wanted to live in a really nice place. In addition, secondary markets blew up the total risk exposure by untold (literally: people still don't know what the full exposure is) multiples through derivative and securitization instruments. Finally, to everyone's surprise, the Government did not bail out Lehman when it had a liquidity crisis, only stepping in when AIG's downfall would have crashed the entire system. If you want to get sick and if you're wondering why our banks are still trading below book just look up the value of the "Level 3 Assets" carried on their balance sheets.

So, the above is a long winded way of saying that we should even be wary of chances of success at a confidence interval of 97%.

A final, quick word on "Risk Profile." For a wealthy person to invest $1,000 with a 99% chance of success is a rational decision. For a lower middle class person to invest the same $1,000 with a 1% chance of losing it all and not being able to feed his family for the next few weeks is not a reasonable decision. The two individuals have very different profiles when it comes to defining their own view of risk, or their risk profile.

Thanks for a polite and interesting question.

Ian, Mods: time to move this thread to another forum unless people really still want to talk about the unfortunate Mr. Sapp. :singing:
 
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My argument is a lousy one eh? Well it sounds to me like you're still holding a grudge from a while back. Why exactly is my argument a lousy one? I pointed out that many of these professional athletes piss away money instead of investing it intelligently. I never said real estate is a 100% fool proof way to keep your money safe. Theoretically the only way to have a guaranteed way to keep your money safe is to put it under your mattress, and even then you're still subject to inflation. I don't want this to blow up into a huge argument, but I fail to see how my argument is a lousy one. As for your friends who have lost in the real estate market, well, there always has been fat cats and starving dogs, sounds like your'e hanging with the wrong crowd. Your "friend" probably failed to properly examine the contract and got screwed. In all honesty however, if you're upside down on your mortgage, you're a moron.

Your argument is a lousy one because real estate is an unpredictable, illiquid form of investment that traditionally produces poor returns. Everything else in your post is a straw man.
 
Most of them were around when the gold standard was still in effect so I'm not sure how relevant that argument is. Regardless, I think we should agree to disagree, I've got a flight to catch anyways. Cheers.

I'm fine with letting it die, for the most part, but I've got to clarify about the list. I took people from throughout the history of the nation on purpose, to show that such bankruptcies are nothing new. I could have named plenty of other modern individuals, such as Morten Lund and many, many others.
 
Part of that is because Holmes had a manager/agent who wasn't out to screw him but to 'zealously represent" his client unlike many of the boxing guys today and set him up with a diversified portfolio to ensure that he was set for life, like Bob Woolf did when he represented many of the Celtics from the 60's to the 80's.
Getting way OT here but my wife is from Easton and she tells stories of Holmes training by running up and down the hills of Easton with a pallet(? right word?) or a roll of carpet on his shoulders to build up strength. He kept his small town mindset and didn't get blinded by the glitz...
Many of these athletes need an accountant, a financial planner and an attorney to keep an eye on each other and to act as a check and balance system to protect them...

To this day, Holmes has the best line I ever heard. On Letterman on night, Letterman asked him, "Larry, what will your legacy be? What do you want people saying about Larry Homes 100 years from now?"

To which Holmes answered. "I want them to be saying, Damm, I can't believe that Larry Homes is 137 years old".
 
Most people weren't brought up and trained to deal with an income in the millions, and that holds true even more so for the kids coming from severe poverty. Debt is a huge problem throughout the country, and at all levels of income. When it's a problem for the wealthy athlete, we see it highlighted. When it's the plumber maxed out on 4 credit cards and still bleeding cash, it's not news.

The plumber doesn't make $43.6 million in 8 years.
 
And I know a lot of people who've lost their ass in the real estate market. His argument was a lousy one.

Then you know alot of suckers who buy and sell short-term as a MARKET investment.

With the low interest rates of the past 5-7 years, investment rental real estate is a great investment even if you invested at the height in 2006.

Way better than the 240 Air Jordan sneakers you're defending Sapp about.
 
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Then you know alot of suckers who buy and sell short-term as a MARKET investment.

With the low interest rates of the past 5-7 years, investment rental real estate is a great investment even if you invested at the height in 2006.

Way better than the 240 Air Jordan sneakers you're defending Sapp about.

Way to toss out that straw man!!!! As for the rest, I'm not going to waste my time on any more of it. You can argue against the facts all you want.
 
The least I would do is set aside like $1M somewhere that nobody, including me, can touch it until extreme emergencies. And a vasectomy after the 2nd or 3rd broad I knock up
 
You'd think that's the LEAST you could do
 
It should be noted here that the Real Estate market decline would only necessitate a bankruptcy if Real Estate were being bought speculatively.
The market value of your home has no bearing on whether you are able to pay the mortgage you took out to buy it. Nor does the market value of a rental property have any bearing on cash flow.
Property bought for long term purposes shoud have no impact on the financial stability of the owner when the market tanks, because the market value of the home is only relevant when you sell it.
There has been much too much blame for people not paying their mortgages put on the decline in value.
 
If Sapp did indeed earn $43.6 million, he likely netted $25-30 million, which by now should have accumulated to a significantly higher value. His bankruptcy filling noted assets of between $6 and 7 million (and slightly higher liabilities). The harsh reality of it is that it takes a fairly determined effort to piss all that money away.

As others have pointed out, those who come into a lot of money relatively quickly (this would include professional athletes and lottery winners) have a high incidence of financial difficulties. For athletes, I think the agents are doing a crappy job of helping them make the transition. It's a pretty simple matter to seek competent financial advice when the big payday hits (heck, Fidelity, Vanguard or Charles Schwab will do it for free once you deposit a big enough check). At this point, lifetime financial security is a simple matter of: 1) being disciplined and 2) not being greedy.

Athletes can find themselves under enormous financial pressures from friends and family. We've all read accounts of athletes who have lost fortunes at the hands of unscrupulous advisers or scam artists (Mark Brunell comes to mind).

It's unfortunate for Sapp and I would not wish this on anyone. Otherwise, his firing from the NFL Network is welcome because, let's face it, he was pretty hard to listen to.
 
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