Reactions to “The Dynasty”

sb1 said:

IIRC BB was not the DC of the Patriots in 96. That was a Tuna team and Groh was DC.

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Upstutter is a liar. Always changing facts to support his narrative.

upstater1 said:

They went 9-3 with Testaverde and even made the playoffs.

They obviously had a plan. If only ownership had allowed that move earlier, you wonder if the previous season would've been more successful, they went 7-9.

They probably would've made the playoffs if they had replaced Kosar that year.

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All I did was repeat words said by someone who was part of the team. I did not know the details even though I was aware of the overall theme as I heard about it over the years.

What you just said (9-3) after cutting Kosar did not add up with the videos of the Browns fans wanting to kill Bill in the show so I looked it up.





Sure enough things were not so neat. Why would he even release Kosar when his replacement was not even healthy to play? A coach (especially one who has done nothing for that team) that replaces a hero QB must win right away to kill the blowback and they did not. That made the whole thing toxic and there was no turning back from that.

1 winning season out of 3 after cutting their favourite player ever was never going to cut it.

ahmed said:

All I did was repeat words said by someone who was part of the team. I did not know the details even though I was aware of the overall theme as I heard about it over the years.

What you just said (9-3) after cutting Kosar did not add up with the videos of the Browns fans wanting to kill Bill in the show so I looked it up.

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Sure enough things were not so neat. Why would he even release Kosar when his replacement was not even healthy to play? A coach (especially one who has done nothing for that team) that replaces a hero QB must win right away to kill the blowback and they did not. That made the whole thing toxic and there was no turning back from that.

1 winning season out of 3 after cutting their favourite player ever was never going to cut it.

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You're mixing up 3 different seasons.

He went 9-3 in the '94 season.

Kosar was horrendously bad. Look it up. They improved their record even with Philcox.

As for the '95 season, I already went into that.

You're deliberately arranging things to look bad for Belichick. You say 3 seasons without Kosar. When it was 5 games without him in '93 (season was over by the time they got rid of him) and the '95 season got blown up by Modell.

Kosar went on to play another 3 years with Dallas and Miami. He played in 18 games, threw one less INGT as he did TDs, and here's the kicker: went WINLESS 0-3 in the games he started.

Belichick's decision to part ways was the right one. Philcox was a better QB, but more importantly, Testaverde was definitely a better QB

upstater1 said:

You're mixing up 3 different seasons.

He went 9-3 in the '94 season.

Kosar was horrendously bad. Look it up. They improved their record even with Philcox.

As for the '95 season, I already went into that.

You're deliberately arranging things to look bad for Belichick. You say 3 seasons without Kosar. When it was 5 games without him in '93 (season was over by the time they got rid of him) and the '95 season got blown up by Modell.

Kosar went on to play another 3 years with Dallas and Miami. He played in 18 games, threw one less INGT as he did TDs, and here's the kicker: went WINLESS 0-3 in the games he started.

Belichick's decision to part ways was the right one. Philcox was a better QB, but more importantly, Testaverde was definitely a better QB

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What in the world are you talking about? I literally copied and pasted an article that had the results in chronological order. I did not arrange anything.

Are you telling me the article is a lie and somehow those results did not happen in that order?

Kosar got cut in 93 correct? The article said Cox went 0-3 after he started for an overall record of 6-6. That means they were 6-3 when they cut him no? They said Test returned after that and finished 7-9 which means he went 1-3. Is all that a lie.

So after cutting Kosar in 93; they went 1-6. Is that incorrect? Did the article lie?

upstater1 said:

You're mixing up 3 different seasons.

He went 9-3 in the '94 season.

Kosar was horrendously bad. Look it up. They improved their record even with Philcox.

As for the '95 season, I already went into that.

You're deliberately arranging things to look bad for Belichick. You say 3 seasons without Kosar. When it was 5 games without him in '93 (season was over by the time they got rid of him) and the '95 season got blown up by Modell.

Kosar went on to play another 3 years with Dallas and Miami. He played in 18 games, threw one less INGT as he did TDs, and here's the kicker: went WINLESS 0-3 in the games he started.

Belichick's decision to part ways was the right one. Philcox was a better QB, but more importantly, Testaverde was definitely a better QB

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Your delusional narrative is a fabrication to make Belichick look good. You conveniently completely wipe out entire seasons and partial seasons to fit your narrative. Nobody is buying it.

Belichick's CLE record according to Upstutter: 36-0 / playoffs: 1-0

Actual CLE Record: 36-44 (.450) / playoffs: 1-1

Belichick had 4 out of 5 losing seasons in CLE, just like he had 3 out of 4 losing seasons at the end in NE (2020-23):

2020-23 NE Record: 29-38 (.433) / playoffs: 0-1

The similarities between Bill's CLE record and his post-Brady record are conclusive. The way Bill forced Kosar out and how he forced Brady out, neither one with a replacement plan are very similar. The record is clear, w/o the GOAT QB, Belichick is a sub .500 HC.

ahmed said:

What in the world are you talking about? I literally copied and pasted an article that had the results in chronological order. I did not arrange anything.

Are you telling me the article is a lie and somehow those results did not happen in that order?

Kosar got cut in 93 correct? The article said Cox went 0-3 after he started for an overall record of 6-6. That means they were 6-3 when they cut him no? They said Test returned after that and finished 7-9 which means he went 1-3. Is all that a lie.

So after cutting Kosar in 93; they went 1-6. Is that incorrect? Did the article lie?

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You're wasting your time with Upstutter, a known liar. All he does is white knight for Belichick by mis-quoting the series, events, records, things that actually happened in a desperate attempt to create the illusion that Belichick is being railroaded. His penchant for confabulations may be a sign of dementia. He should seek treatment.

ahmed said:

What in the world are you talking about? I literally copied and pasted an article that had the results in chronological order. I did not arrange anything.

Are you telling me the article is a lie and somehow those results did not happen in that order?

Kosar got cut in 93 correct? The article said Cox went 0-3 after he started for an overall record of 6-6. That means they were 6-3 when they cut him no? They said Test returned after that and finished 7-9 which means he went 1-3. Is all that a lie.

So after cutting Kosar in 93; they went 1-6. Is that incorrect? Did the article lie?

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'93:

Kosar: 3-3
Philcox: 1-3
Testicleverde: 3-3

ahmed said:

What in the world are you talking about? I literally copied and pasted an article that had the results in chronological order. I did not arrange anything.

Are you telling me the article is a lie and somehow those results did not happen in that order?

Kosar got cut in 93 correct? The article said Cox went 0-3 after he started for an overall record of 6-6. That means they were 6-3 when they cut him no? They said Test returned after that and finished 7-9 which means he went 1-3. Is all that a lie.

So after cutting Kosar in 93; they went 1-6. Is that incorrect? Did the article lie?

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You wrote 3 seasons without Kosar. Testaverde played 6 games in '93. That's not a season. The '95 season was a wash for obvious reasons. Do you know anything about what happened in Cleveland in '95?

Just look it up: Kosar and Testaverde went 3-3 in '93. And no, after they got rid of Kosar they did not go 1-6.

But you really have to get inside the numbers to see what happened that year.

For instance, two of the games I'm crediting Kosar with winning were actually games that the Browns won after being down and then Testaverde coming and replacing Kosar. So in fairness, the record for them should really be Testaverde 5-3 and Kosar 1-3. In the first of those games, the Browns were down 16-3 in the 4th quarter. This was the third game against the Raiders. Kosar was benched. They brought in Testaverde, and he lead the team to a victory. That counts as a win for Kosar, not Testaverde. Yet Kosar was angry for getting benched.

Kosar was also benched in the next 2 games he started, and Testaverde came in and immediately rallied the team in both.

After benching the starter for 3 straight games and watching Testaverde play well in all 3 games, Belichick started Testaverde and benched Kosar instead. The Browns proceeded to win both games, which counted for Testaverde's first 2 wins of the year (even though he played well in the previous 3).

In the next game, the Browns beat the Steelers but Testaverde separated his shoulder late in the game. Kosar threw one pass.

Testaverde's big injury coincided with the end of the winning for that season. They would win only two more.

In the very next game after the Steelers, the Browns with Kosar lost to the Broncos. Kosar was so pissed at Belichick that he stopped listening to play calls that game and he drew up his own plays in the dirt. That's the real reason Kosar was cut instead of waiting for Testaverde to heal. Kosar deliberately ignored the gameplan and the playcalls. So he was cut.

By the way, when Cleveland came back into the league in 1999 (with Belichick looking for a job that year), Bernie Kosar was part of the ownership team and planning team (most of whom were ex-SF 49er guys like Carmen Policy). Guess who Bernie Kosar was pushing for them to hire instead? Yes, Bill Belichick. However badly it ended between them, Belichick is who Kosar assessed would be the best coach for Cleveland.

Kosar was certainly right about that.

Just to state this again, since weeks ago we heard about the damning quotes from Amendola, Welker and Slater, I thought that episode 8 was going to be the biggest hit job on Belichick.

Instead, it was the fairest episode on Belichick.

So weird that these fire-y quotes in context are more accurate than all the other inaccurate out-of-context framing we saw in previous episodes.

upstater1 said:

You wrote 3 seasons without Kosar. Testaverde played 6 games in '93. That's not a season. The '95 season was a wash for obvious reasons. Do you know anything about what happened in Cleveland in '95?

Just look it up: Kosar and Testaverde went 3-3 in '93. And no, after they got rid of Kosar they did not go 1-6.

But you really have to get inside the numbers to see what happened that year.

For instance, two of the games I'm crediting Kosar with winning were actually games that the Browns won after being down and then Testaverde coming and replacing Kosar. So in fairness, the record for them should really be Testaverde 5-3 and Kosar 1-3. In the first of those games, the Browns were down 16-3 in the 4th quarter. This was the third game against the Raiders. Kosar was benched. They brought in Testaverde, and he lead the team to a victory. That counts as a win for Kosar, not Testaverde. Yet Kosar was angry for getting benched.

Kosar was also benched in the next 2 games he started, and Testaverde came in and immediately rallied the team in both.

After benching the starter for 3 straight games and watching Testaverde play well in all 3 games, Belichick started Testaverde and benched Kosar instead. The Browns proceeded to win both games, which counted for Testaverde's first 2 wins of the year (even though he played well in the previous 3).

In the next game, the Browns beat the Steelers but Testaverde separated his shoulder late in the game. Kosar threw one pass.

Testaverde's big injury coincided with the end of the winning for that season. They would win only two more.

In the very next game after the Steelers, the Browns with Kosar lost to the Broncos. Kosar was so pissed at Belichick that he stopped listening to play calls that game and he drew up his own plays in the dirt. That's the real reason Kosar was cut instead of waiting for Testaverde to heal. Kosar deliberately ignored the gameplan and the playcalls. So he was cut.

By the way, when Cleveland came back into the league in 1999 (with Belichick looking for a job that year), Bernie Kosar was part of the ownership team and planning team (most of whom were ex-SF 49er guys like Carmen Policy, which is why they hired guys like Mariucci and Holmgren, also SF assistants). Guess who Bernie Kosar was pushing for them to hire instead? Yes, Bill Belichick. However badly it ended between them, Belichick is who Kosar assessed would be the best coach for Cleveland.

Kosar was certainly right about that.

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All very nice context but does not change the fact that they proceeded to lose almost every game the season they cut their hometown hero and they had 1 winning season out of three. I don't know why you don't count 93 since they cut him while they were .500 with 9 games to go.

After so much animosity from fans in 93, there was never any coming back from that unless they won a SB.

ahmed said:

All very nice context but does not change the fact that they proceeded to lose almost every game the season they cut their hometown hero and they had 1 winning season out of three. I don't know why you don't count 93 since they cut him while they were .500 with 9 games to go.

After so much animosity from fans in 93, there was never any coming back from that unless they won a SB.

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It's not a full season. At best it's half a season. They went 2-6 with Philcox starting 4 games.

I wanted to see how they did without Kosar.

They were immeasurably improved. It was the right decision. Testaverde was a much better QB.

You can't allow the QB to completely ignore his coaches and gameplans. How do you imagine that's going to work?

Given the record both in '93 and in '94 for Testaverde, I'd say the bad QBing from Kosar was holding that team back.

venecol said:

You're wasting your time with Upstutter, a known liar. All he does is white knight for Belichick by mis-quoting the series, events, records, things that actually happened in a desperate attempt to create the illusion that Belichick is being railroaded. His penchant for confabulations may be a sign of dementia. He should seek treatment.

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Said from a man who discounts most of Bill's career in his attempt to create his own illusions about Belichick.

upstater1 said:

Kosar was also benched in the next 2 games he started, and Testaverde came in and immediately rallied the team in both.

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The next 2 games after the Raiders game, CLE lost both to IND and MIA. Why don't you attribute those loses to Testicleverde? Lol

Against the Colts, CLE was down 6-0 and scored 10 pts in 2nd half against 17 by the Colts: 23-10 loss. In what universe is that rallying the team? Testicles had a 56% completion rate 1 TD/1 INT and a 76.8 rating.

Against MIA, CLE was up 14-10 and scored 0 pts in 2nd half against 14 by MIA: 24-14 loss. Is that rallying the team? Testicles had a 46% completion rate 0 TD/1 INT and a 22.6 rating (Kosar had 1 TD/0 INT w/ a 102.2 rate).

You continue to lie because that's what you do to excuse Bill's horrible record with CLE.

# SB rings Kosar has w/o Belichick: 1
# SB rings HC Belichick has w/o Tom: 0

I watched episodes 3-4.

1) 3rd episode is my favourite by far. Probably will be in the entire show. They could have saved the last 2 minutes for episode 4 though lol

2) I have seen footage of the Pats coming out as a team in the 2001 SB many times and it never gets old. Just feels like a classic movie scene at this point

3) I saw the SB highlights and the game winning drive many many times and I get chills in my arms every single time just like Madden did

4) It was so nice to see some old faces; some of my favorites ever. Harrison, Seymour, Moss. Loved Moss' retelling of screaming about becoming a Patriot. I had forgotten how excited players were to become a Patriot

5) I remember Spygate so vividly. Living in Toronto I don't know another Patriots fan which is part of why I love this place. In fact all my friends dislike or hate the Patriots. I caught a lot of **** from them about it. But I did not really care. I was always defiant about Spygate. It also helped that I don't care much about what others think of me lol (a personality trait that is a double edged sword)

6) I don't understand the whining from so many posters here about the show. I had no issue with Strahan calling us evil because he was speaking about how the rest of the country saw us as that was very much how we were perceived. Yes it was all jealousy but perception is reality

7) Did not think Kraft said anything bad about Bill or anything else like that except the schmuck part. I hated it when I first heard about it many years ago and still do but in the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal. He probably sugar coated protecting Bill part a bit but as somebody who lives outside NE territory, the rest of the world definitely looked at our punishment as light (which is absurd I know) and some of that was attributed to Kraft and Patriots power within the league

8) 07 SB hilights are still painful all these years. In fact I had refused to watch and always changed channels anytime the highlights were shown on TV until after the 14 SB. To this day that Moss missed catch is the most heartbreaking play in our history and makes me sad everytime I see it

9) I loved the 2007 hilights; so many great memories. I was in the stands when we crushed the Bills at Buffalo. My favourite in person game memory. Bill's fans were always cool when I was there even though they knew I was a Pats fan because I was always the only one rooting for them wherever I sat

10) Ultimately us continuing to win non stop made the whole spygate silly which is why it's never really mentioned anymore

11) People saying Kraft took too much credit for his business dealings and whatnot are silly. The guy clearly grew up a fan and it was extra special for him because of that. You could tell in how he spoke about it. And yes he is a brilliant businessman and this is coming from someone who soured on him after Deflategate. But give credit where it is due

ahmed said:

6) I don't understand the whining from so many posters here about the show. I had no issue with Strahan calling us evil because he was speaking about how the rest of the country saw us as that was very much how we were perceived. Yes it was all jealousy but perception is reality

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The Pats were the closest thing to the 90's Chicago Bulls. Players hated them because they knew deep down they were going to lose. Strahan was actually complementing them.

TheRainMaker said:

The Pats were the closest thing to the 90's Chicago Bulls. Players hated them because they knew deep down they were going to lose. Strahan was actually complementing them.

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It was a complement from Strahan but the sentiment was literal from fans of other teams.

Episode 8 was the best by far.

Crazy to see Belichick gush over Garopollo. I never saw him do that with Brady or Mac with the footage we have of them. Kind of interesting.

Love the flashback to Brady's feelings about Michigan. It sets the stage for the future split. In fact, that reminds me...


I feel like the series has been uneven in its focus. Why dedicate a whole episode to Hernandez (without really focusing on how it even impacted the dynasty?)? Why spend 3 episodes for the 01 season?

I ask that because

1) Hernandez has been talked about ad nauseum.

2) Same with the 01 season. I appreciate the extra footage though.

I think it's a HUGE missed opportunity to entirely skip over the 02 and 03 seasons.

The Pats missing the playoffs after 01? People wondering if they should have stayed with Brady? And the uncertainty around them? Getting blown out by the Bills with Bledsoe? The team winning on defense in the 03 regular season, but Brady saving them in the 03 super bowl? You can't skip that. Call me stupid, but I think you can argue those years laid the foundation for the start of the Brady/Belichick split 20 years later. Feel free to disagree with me.

upstater1 said:

It's not a full season. At best it's half a season. They went 2-6 with Philcox starting 4 games.

I wanted to see how they did without Kosar.

They were immeasurably improved. It was the right decision. Testaverde was a much better QB.

You can't allow the QB to completely ignore his coaches and gameplans. How do you imagine that's going to work?

Given the record both in '93 and in '94 for Testaverde, I'd say the bad QBing from Kosar was holding that team back.

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Kosar complained about the playcalling - they had him running bootlegs despite his declining mobility

Kosar was washed but perhaps they could have managed it better

upstater1 said:

And it explains everything for why you'd rather have Zappe in there over Mac Jones.

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We would?

Looking at the previews for the next 2 episodes it kind of validated how my thinking on Brady’s exit evolved a bit. The GOAT was never sticking around even if he got the contract he wanted.

He left because Bill is an a-hole and would never change…and Tom had enough of that crap. Hard to imagine a lot of employees would do something different if their boss treated them like that.