DRAFT BGC 2021 Pre-Draft/Patriot-Type Prospect(s) thread

borg said:

I see Waddle as such a versatile tool who can lineup anywhere...the ultimate chess piece for a coach who values versatility probably more than any coach in the league.
Possessed (pre-injury) Edelman-like quickness inside but with elite speed to win footraces on the edge.

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he can change an offense if you have a qb who can throw deep and an OC who construct plays where you line him up on very different positions to confuse the defense or create mismatches

borg said:

I do worry about Smith's frame and would me more reluctant to utilize him inside.........yet he is the Bama WR still motoring while Waddle mends

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Smith is listed at 175 pounds at ESPN and Byrd at 180 pounds..i know byrd is light and i was a little scared watching the tackle from the lb against byrd during our last game against the jets, but man Smith is such a playmaker, not just a great route runner with good hands but also really speedy, he can run probably any route deep short outside inside, sweep, screen etc..

borg said:

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Doubt both Waddle & Pitts will still be available at 15 but would love to know Bill's thoughts if he had the opportunity to choose one over the other. Each would elevate his anemic offense.
Waddle the more versatile
Pitts the elusive unicorn too often beyond Bill's reach

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I doubt that either one of Smith Waddle or Pitts are there at 15 tbh, i can see dolphins or eagles going for the bama wr maybe or yeah giants can use an playmaker on offense, bengals yeah quit some teams who will considering those guys probably

borg said:

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Would Bill ever draft a little guy at 15?

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Good question, it's better than the 6'4 225 pounds WR
I mean for one reason it's really necessary to have size or otherwise it's hard to beat your man or be competitive constantly, for example small cb's can give mismatch opportunities for an offense (i am referring to asante samuel jr. against ND), and a WR may struggle to separate if he is small and not physical but i think Smith and Waddle who are both light can be really productive at the next level.

patsfanfromoversea said:

@BaconGrundleCandy have you looked into Carlos Basham or Dayo Odeyingbo ?

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Not really Basham but I love Dayo. He's one of my guys. I mean he lines up everywhere. Combines really nice hand usage and decent suddenness for his size when attacking and getting off blocks. + hands - violent, active, strong, high. Really gets a hold of his guys on push/pull. Throws some karate chops. Seems to really have a plan but is also 6'6/275 so he has some raw power too. Have to watch him closer but seems to jump with hips before feet which is a good thing in case anyone is wondering. Knows how to use his length and can direct tackles when he extends. Big motor. I like him. Flowers mold, unique style, skill set and build.

Mentioned this before but throwing on the move, particularly to his non-dominate side is one of if not his best attribute. The velocity he can generate and accuracy he gets it isn't common at all.
Little side note here, it's not getting as much attention as his other gifts but whoever gets Lawrence is getting a superior athlete that can move. Lawrence isn't Vick or Jackson but he's rushing for a bunch of yards. Especially in the red zone, high leverage plays etc You'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. Again hes not going to be juking defenders but he has really nice speed for his size once he gets going.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Not really Basham but I love Dayo. He's one of my guys. I mean he lines up everywhere. Combines really nice hand usage and decent suddenness for his size when attacking and getting off blocks. + hands - violent, active, strong, high. Really gets a hold of his guys on push/pull. Throws some karate chops. Seems to really have a plan but is also 6'6/275 so he has some raw power too. Have to watch him closer but seems to jump with hips before feet which is a good thing in case anyone is wondering. Knows how to use his length and can direct tackles when he extends. Big motor. I like him. Flowers mold, unique style, skill set and build.

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Thanks, I looked at DE upgrades recently since we could need a Wise upgrade or an opponent on the other side at least. I like that he can be a three down DE, this is so much needed here. Play the run outside, rush the passer from inside or outside gives us obv a bunch of different formations on passing downs. Like his Size compared with his feet who look quicker on tape than expected after reading stuff about him.
I think he could sneak definitely in the second round if his test is solid. Impressive job against a good texas a&m team there wow. He is underrated on some big boards as for now but that will probably change going closer to the draft.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

QB - Lots of hyperbole thrown around in sports, today's society in general but it's not a stretch to say Lawrence is a generational prospect.

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No way. Lawrence is not even close. He bird dogs his receivers, does not seem to find the secondary reciever, under throws them, and has a frail physique. He also likes to throw into coverage; that habit will not work well in the NFL. I think he is way overrated.

However the Clemson WRs are really good....I have no idea how they are rated, but I like what I saw on the Lawrence highlights.

It's interesting to read about the value grouping because it's exactly the approach I take in NFL GM games like Madden/Front Office Football even though I wasn't aware it was a formal strategy. If someone dumb like me was able to come to the same intuitive conclusion as Bill, I have to assume it's the way most executives approach the draft, rather than something unique our team does.

@BaconGrundleCandy - You seem to be REALLY high on Moore. The way you're talking, he'd be the kind of dynamic player that this team could use on offense. Do you think that Moore is likely to fall to the Pats at 15?

Do you think any of your tier 1 guys for the IDL will be around in for the Pats pick in the 2nd round? Or do you think that the Pats would have to move back up into the 1st round to be able to get one of the guys you think is a fit for them?

FredFromDartmouth said:

No way. Lawrence is not even close. He bird dogs his receivers, does not seem to find the secondary reciever, under throws them, and has a frail physique. He also likes to throw into coverage; that habit will not work well in the NFL. I think he is way overrated.

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He's skinnier than Brady when he was drafted. I keep seeing these option runs and I'm thinking in the pros, he's going to get demolished.

jbean9876abcd said:

He's skinnier than Brady when he was drafted. I keep seeing these option runs and I'm thinking in the pros, he's going to get demolished.

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I kinda expect this nonsense from the other guy but it's not even close to being true.

Lawrence is younger than Brady when they were drafted. Lawrence just turned 21 in Oct. He's a baby and a giant at 6'6 but he's also 220-225. This isn't frail at all and remember he's a QB who absolutely is training with mechanics in mind so he'll develop naturally. You won't see any real bulk until he's 24-25.

DaBruinz said:

@BaconGrundleCandy - You seem to be REALLY high on Moore. The way you're talking, he'd be the kind of dynamic player that this team could use on offense. Do you think that Moore is likely to fall to the Pats at 15?

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I love Moore. He's a little bull. I think he's forgotten about a little bit bc of injuries, covid and the other great prospects. I could see him going anywhere from 20-40. I'd love to see him here.

How about Pitts/Waddle/Chase with our pick at 15 and then come back for Moore? That's not a bad start. Meyers gets to play his chain-mover role.

Thoughts? Anyone?

DaBruinz said:

Do you think any of your tier 1 guys for the IDL will be around in for the Pats pick in the 2nd round? Or do you think that the Pats would have to move back up into the 1st round to be able to get one of the guys you think is a fit for them?

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Yea I think so. I think one of Nixon, Tufele, Onwuzrike, Barmore and one or two more will be there.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

I love Moore. He's a little bull. I think he's forgotten about a little bit bc of injuries, covid and the other great prospects. I could see him going anywhere from 20-40. I'd love to see him here.

How about Pitts/Waddle/Chase with our pick at 15 and then come back for Moore? That's not a bad start. Meyers gets to play his chain-mover role.

Thoughts? Anyone?

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Getting 2 dynamic playmakers for our offense with our first two picks, you can count me in for that; then a NT in 3/4 rd. a real fatty to plug the north south run lanes yes pls
I know you like the idk how to describe them, i mean the DT who can stop the run but move better against horizontal stretch plays more but if you have a big NT who can plug the north south you need less ressources for that and can focus with the other guys to defend the edge if that logic makes sense, do you know what i mean bc my english ain't that great tbh

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Yea I think so. I think one of Nixon, Tufele, Onwuzrike, Barmore and one or two more will be there.

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Definitely, i would say it would be a mistake as for now to select for example barmore in the first. A lot of guys expected him to make a big jump this season after he flashed in in limited snaps 2019. He did not live up to expectations. There are a lot of guys who question his run stop ability, i mean his frame is 6'5 and 310 pounds sth like that and he struggles there and doesn't play the real starter role in Bama. His pass rush is his best trait esp his swim move but doesn't has much other moves, bull rush idk questionable for the next level on tape

BaconGrundleCandy said:

I kinda expect this nonsense from the other guy but it's not even close to being true.

Lawrence is younger than Brady when they were drafted. Lawrence just turned 21 in Oct. He's a baby and a giant at 6'6 but he's also 220-225. This isn't frail at all and remember he's a QB who absolutely is training with mechanics in mind so he'll develop naturally. You won't see any real bulk until he's 24-25.

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Thanks. I was just looking at it from a BMI (and eye) perspective while watching the games, which is probably misguided as you imply, and I didn't account for age. We'll see.

patsfanfromoversea said:

Getting 2 dynamic playmakers for our offense with our first two picks, you can count me in for that; then a NT in 3/4 rd. a real fatty to plug the north south run lanes yes pls
I know you like the idk how to describe them, i mean the DT who can stop the run but move better against horizontal stretch plays more but if you have a big NT who can plug the north south you need less ressources for that and can focus with the other guys to defend the edge if that logic makes sense, do you know what i mean bc my english ain't that great tbh

Definitely, i would say it would be a mistake as for now to select for example barmore in the first. A lot of guys expected him to make a big jump this season after he flashed in in limited snaps 2019. He did not live up to expectations. There are a lot of guys who question his run stop ability, i mean his frame is 6'5 and 310 pounds sth like that and he struggles there and doesn't play the real starter role in Bama. His pass rush is his best trait esp his swim move but doesn't has much other moves, bull rush idk questionable for the next level on tape

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I think your english is great. My wife was born and raised in China and she reads and corrects my business proposals.

I am a fan of the bolded player type in Round 1. I have said it before, the team can compensate to set the edge on one side of the D line as long as the other side is solid and not failing. Compensating on both sides plus shooting the A or B gaps is not possible (there are not that many players in the box). We had to compensate for both sides of the D line this year so we got run over (and over and over). We need one defensive end stud who can set the edge and rush the passer. One is enough.

We can easily find a NT free agent that is the equivalent to anyone available in the 3rd/4th round. They are a dime a dozen - Thor was signed for low $$s - if he can stay healthy, he is better than a 3rd/4th round rookie. I think we need one stud defensive linemen, DE, in the draft (hopefully 1st round) and two defensive lineman in FA, 1) a veteran LB, Bud Dupree anyone?, and 2) a veteran D lineman like Ninkovich, Trey Flowers might be available, this guy does not have to be a stud, only steady.

One-If-By-Sea said:

I think your english is great. My wife was born and raised in China and she reads and corrects my business proposals.

I am a fan of the bolded player type in Round 1. I have said it before, the team can compensate to set the edge on one side of the D line as long as the other side is solid and not failing. Compensating on both sides plus shooting the A or B gaps is not possible (there are not that many players in the box). We had to compensate for both sides of the D line this year so we got run over (and over and over). We need one defensive end stud who can set the edge and rush the passer. One is enough.

We can easily find a NT free agent that is the equivalent to anyone available in the 3rd/4th round. They are a dime a dozen - Thor was signed for low $$s - if he can stay healthy, he is better than a 3rd/4th round rookie. I think we need one stud defensive linemen, DE, in the draft (hopefully 1st round) and two defensive lineman in FA, 1) a veteran LB, Bud Dupree anyone?, and 2) a veteran D lineman like Ninkovich, Trey Flowers might be available, this guy does not have to be a stud, only steady.

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Thanks sir, trust me my german letters for university need to get read as well
I agree on your thoughts. You can rotate the one side with specialists but it would be nice to get a every down DE stud.
Yeah there are quite some NT available like others mentioned Tomlinson for example or even resign Carl Davis maybe idk.
Bud Dupree is quit an upgrade of our current OLB. I wonder why he did not produce early in his career. Maybe he needed to adapt to NFL Level or the Watt and IDL upgrade helped him. It's probably a combination of both. He gets probably good money. Don't know if BB wants to invest that there. I like Judon and Leonard Williams but they cost a lot as well. Some really interesting defense Free Agents available tbh.
I don't know about drafting defense in rd.1 if we stay at 15. Maybe Paye, i think he is interesting but the rest idk. The other DE/IDL don't convince me to be picked at 15. Maybe a ILB with a trade down

jbean9876abcd said:

Thanks. I was just looking at it from a BMI (and eye) perspective while watching the games, which is probably misguided as you imply, and I didn't account for age. We'll see.

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Yeah we will see. I have my doubts about this guy and would not all be upset if the Jets trade up a slot to grab him.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

I kinda expect this nonsense from the other guy but it's not even close to being true.

Lawrence is younger than Brady when they were drafted. Lawrence just turned 21 in Oct. He's a baby and a giant at 6'6 but he's also 220-225. This isn't frail at all and remember he's a QB who absolutely is training with mechanics in mind so he'll develop naturally. You won't see any real bulk until he's 24-25.

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Grogan was thin and rangy when he came to the Patriots, but he was a very tough guy. Will Lawrence be the same? Hard to say...time will tell but I have my doubts.....all based on watching a few minutes of highlights, ha!

patsfanfromoversea said:

Thanks sir, trust me my german letters for university need to get read as well
I agree on your thoughts. You can rotate the one side with specialists but it would be nice to get a every down DE stud.
Yeah there are quite some NT available like others mentioned Tomlinson for example or even resign Carl Davis maybe idk.
Bud Dupree is quit an upgrade of our current OLB. I wonder why he did not produce early in his career. Maybe he needed to adapt to NFL Level or the Watt and IDL upgrade helped him. It's probably a combination of both. He gets probably good money. Don't know if BB wants to invest that there. I like Judon and Leonard Williams but they cost a lot as well. Some really interesting defense Free Agents available tbh.
I don't know about drafting defense in rd.1 if we stay at 15. Maybe Paye, i think he is interesting but the rest idk. The other DE/IDL don't convince me to be picked at 15. Maybe a ILB with a trade down

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Thank, PFFO,

Bud Dupree had an ACL tear in Nov 2020 so I do not think he is too expensive this offseason. With the cap decreasing and a big risk on the ACL surgery he might be affordable. If we had Bud Dupree and Hightower as ILB in Oct of 2021 and onwards, I think we would be much improved.

Leonard Williams might have been better at the NJG than the NYJ. Who would have thought someone could look better after they left the JETEs? I would love to sign Judon or Williams if we have the cap space. Carl Davis has a concussion issue, so he is great value but I do not know if we can depend on him. I would like to sign a DT.

I doubt Paye is available at #15, but if he is, then that is my pick without question. I am suggesting a trade down in exchange for another #2 or #3 pick. After the trade down, we can pick a Defensive End (or a DT if we get a DEnd in FA), a WR, a CB or Free Safety (replace D McC), and then a DT or a LB in the 1st to 3rd round (4 picks with the 1st round trade down)? And a couple of Offensive Linemen in the 4th? I think the defensive front 7 has to be the priority. Winovich, Uche and Jennings are great to fill out the front 7 if we add some beef up front!!! I love Dugger and Phillips, and the secondary for 2021. After 2021 we lose D McC, Gilmore and possibly Jackson, but we have to address the "beef" upfront this year in my opinion.

One last thought - the Pats are trying to convert Rashod Berry to OLB or D End. It will be interesting to see if he blossoms with an offseason and weight training. I love BB's reclamation conversion projects.

jbean9876abcd said:

Thanks. I was just looking at it from a BMI (and eye) perspective while watching the games, which is probably misguided as you imply, and I didn't account for age. We'll see.

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FredFromDartmouth said:

Grogan was thin and rangy when he came to the Patriots, but he was a very tough guy. Will Lawrence be the same? Hard to say...time will tell but I have my doubts.....all based on watching a few minutes of highlights, ha!

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Wasn't trying to be a **** in my reply. Sometimes through text sound different ...
Anyway one of the issues with being that tall is even if he gained 10lbs overnight he'd still be skinny at 6'6. I'm 6'4 and always had trouble putting/keeping weight on until recently (getting older lol) Some just wear it better.

Another point, more importantly probably. He's a QB and most likely working everything around his mechanics so I'm thinking as long as he's fit, feeling strong, hitting benchmarks in the weight room and he'll gain his weight naturally.

Like 24-25 is a pretty good indicator of what you'll look like at 40-50 give or take. By 25 you lost all you're baby fat, gained some muscle-filled out and athletes like him are a different kind all together.

And to @FredFromDartmouth point about toughness. It's always difficult for me to question a players toughness unless it's an egregious case. Lawrence has ran for some tough yards during his time at Clemson and taken a few hits. I think he's a football player through and through. He loves the camaraderie and us vs them aspects of the game. Likes being in the locker room and with the guys. Doesn't think he's above anyone. He's a great prospect and something that goes underappreciated and not mentioned enough is that he's a winner. He's won and done almost everything there is to do.

FredFromDartmouth said:

Yeah we will see. I have my doubts about this guy and would not all be upset if the Jets trade up a slot to grab him.

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I had been slightly cringing half the time he runs between the tackles, and then it went to a whole new level when I saw his run TD against Ohio State, especially since he does kindof have (not serious at all) previous neck and shoulder injuries. That being said, I hope he has the worst non-injury related combine in history and falls to #15.

BaconGrundleCandy said:

Wasn't trying to be a **** in my reply. Sometimes through text sound different ...
Anyway one of the issues with being that tall is even if he gained 10lbs overnight he'd still be skinny at 6'6. I'm 6'4 and always had trouble putting/keeping weight on until recently (getting older lol) Some just wear it better.

Another point, more importantly probably. He's a QB and most likely working everything around his mechanics so I'm thinking as long as he's fit, feeling strong, hitting benchmarks in the weight room and he'll gain his weight naturally.

Like 24-25 is a pretty good indicator of what you'll look like at 40-50 give or take. By 25 you lost all you're baby fat, gained some muscle-filled out and athletes like him are a different kind all together.

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No worries - I didn't take it that way. Most of the time, I don't know what I'm talking about, anyway, so I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for all your very informative posts - definitely learning a ton.

Herbert's a good comparison - 6'6" / 236lbs - although he listed 237 at UO but weighed 227 at the senior bowl. Interesting read about his experience last year with weight and scouts' reactions: Contextualizing Oregon QB Justin Herbert weighing in at 227 pounds at Senior Bowl.

On an unrelated note, what do you think about QB velocity? It sounds like 55mph might be minimum to be pretty good (just picking the number out of my arse from Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2020 - as the last 4 QBs drafted to win a SB were at least that) - surprised Stidham only got to 53mph, so that makes sense now why Cam went in for the Houston last second hail mary (even with the questionable shoulder).