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2018 Free Agency -- Part 2


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No, you didn't say "expensive"?

However, it would indeed be expensive to sign someone so good that we would want to sit McCourty, Harmon or Chung.

I never said "expensive". I said "capable starter". And I'm not sure what YOU mean by "expensive", of course.

Bottom line is that I'm not making myself clear.

IF the Pats signed a veteran safety who is capable of starting (assuming an affordable price), why would they use him for only 25% of the snaps?

The four active safeties played over 2900 snaps combined in 2017 ...
- D-Mac = 1029
- Chung = 928
- Harmon = 702
- Richards = 272

Why wouldn't they even that out a bit closer to 725 snaps each? If you've got the guy, why not use him in a rotation with the others, like the Pats did with the four "starter" DEs they had in 2016?
 
I never said "expensive". I said "capable starter". And I'm not sure what YOU mean by "expensive", of course.

Bottom line is that I'm not making myself clear.

IF the Pats signed a veteran safety who is capable of starting (assuming an affordable price), why would they use him for only 25% of the snaps?

The four active safeties played over 2900 snaps combined in 2017 ...
- D-Mac = 1029
- Chung = 928
- Harmon = 702
- Richards = 272

Why wouldn't they even that out a bit closer to 725 snaps each? If you've got the guy, why not use him in a rotation with the others, like the Pats did with the four "starter" DEs they had in 2016?
Well, the conversation started with the suggestion of signing Eric Reid, so that’s where I got the idea of a player being expensive. If you personally never suggested him, then apologies, but you directly quoted my response to another poster who did.

I don’t know who would be signed that would be an improvement on DMcC, Chung, or Harmon—so for me, the conversation quickly shifts towards the 4th safety. I would’ve loved to have drafted a safety for this role and for the future. Belichick did not agree.
 
No, you didn't say "expensive"?

However, it would indeed be expensive to sign someone so good that we would want to sit McCourty, Harmon or Chung.

With the way the FA market has played out for safeties this year, I'm not sure how "expensive" that would be, really. In any case, that isn't the main point.

What I'm trying to understand is why a fourth safety necessarily must be a "backup", and why, if that fourth safety is part of a regular, somewhat equal rotation with the other three, that means that one of the other three is "sitting" (which feels like a heavily loaded term). When Nink, Long, Sheard and Flowers were deployed in a four-man rotation with more or less equal snaps, were any of them considered to be "sitting?
 
Interesting that Dallas has not signed any of the well known safeties who remain on the market, as they’re desperate as all hell on the backend, especially after converting Byron Jones.

I’m guessing that Reid is being blackballed in the same manner that Kaepernick is, and that Vaccarro is still dealing with the injuries to his core/groin and wrist. Not sure about what’s preventing Boston and Burnett from signing somewhere.
 
Well, the conversation started with the suggestion of signing Eric Reid, so that’s where I got the idea of a player being expensive. If you personally never suggested him, then apologies, but you directly quoted my response to another poster who did.

I don’t know who would be signed that would be an improvement on DMcC, Chung, or Harmon—so for me, the conversation quickly shifts towards the 4th safety. I would’ve loved to have drafted a safety for this role and for the future. Belichick did not agree.


I understand.

Going back even further in the general conversation (even to early March, when names like Suh, Richardson, etc. were being casually tossed around without regard for the cap), Reid was indeed part of that conversation - along with Vaccaro, Tre Boston, and a couple of others. At that point, Reid was right up there with Suh, et al, as players who were likely to be way too expensive.

However, the way the market for safeties has played out since then, that expense may not be so ridiculously high as was once thought. While the media conversation has largely been focused on Reid's (apparent) contention that he's being "black-balled" (no pun intended, but ...) for his political stance, some analysts have been taking note of the fact that (1) several other solid, former starting safeties are also still looking for work, (2) for those who have been signed, the contracts have been much lower than expected, and (3) safety prospects like Justin Reid and Ronnie Harrison - who were projected to be selected in the early 2nd-round, if not the late 1st - ended up falling to #68 and #93, respectively.

This has led to growing speculation that the safety position may now be experiencing a "market correction", in terms of value, similar to what the RB position has experienced over the past few years.

Anyway, the focus has been on Reid for fairly obvious reasons, and he's inadvertently become the default exemplar for my hypothesis. But, he's not the only example - there are others still out there looking for work who may also be "capable starters" and who would likely be considerably less expensive. In a "down market" for safeties, that may translate to "affordable", cap-wise. Even Reid himself may end up with a 2018 cap hit much closer to Chung's $3.6M than to D-Mac's $11.9M (which may now be considered "luxurious", relatively speaking, in the current market context).

Taking this a step further, it's also possible that BB/Caserio saw this context as it was developing and - rather than address the position using draft capital on yet another unproven prospect (Richards, Wilson) - they chose instead to go with AJ Moore (UDFA) and are currently sifting through the several veteran safeties who are still available - IOW, they may be beginning to approach the safety position similarly to the way they've previously approached the RB position - paying a (now) relatively slight premium for proven experience. Richards' 2018 cap hit is $1.18M (not totally unreasonable for a good special-teamer), so, if they can sign an NFL-proven, capable veteran for around $2M, they may be gaining a significant and instant roster improvement for an "upcharge" of roughly $800k.

Again, I'm not saying that this will happen or should happen - just that this may be a more realistic option/opportunity than is popularly assumed.

Anyway, in my hypothesis (which assumes "affordability"), it's not necessary that this veteran FA safety be "better than", but merely more or less equal to the Pats current starting trio. In which case, why would he necessarily be a "backup" who "sits" most of the time? This isn't comparable to, say, RB (or Center) - where there's usually only one on the field at a time. We know that the Pats have been using three safeties for more than half the defensive snaps (and were doing so even before last year's LB scarcity).

Also, under such a circumstance, the re-distribution of snaps at safety wouldn't necessarily be a radical "equal time for everyone" thing. Instead of last year's ...
- D-Mac = 1029
- Chung = 928
- Harmon = 702
- Richards = 272
(2931 total)

... it could be ...
- D-Mac = 900
- Chung = 800
- Harmon = 600
- "Player X" = 550
(2850 total)

Then, of course, all of this seems to inevitably lead to what may have become a sort of "third rail" of cap apportionment discussions.

Chung = $915k base/$3.80M cap hit
Richards = $941k base/$1.18M cap hit
Harmon = $1.50M base/$3.75M cap hit

D-Mac = $7.5M base/$11.94M cap hit
... (and $9.0M base/$13.44M cap hit in 2019)

If Chung, Harmon and Richards, or even "Player X", are being paid like RBs (and it's pretty close), then D-Mac is being paid like Le'Veon Bell. In this "cold business" of NFL football, I personally have to wonder how long that will stand, especially with D-Mac approaching his 31st birthday.
 
I understand.

Going back even further in the general conversation (even to early March, when names like Suh, Richardson, etc. were being casually tossed around without regard for the cap), Reid was indeed part of that conversation - along with Vaccaro, Tre Boston, and a couple of others. At that point, Reid was right up there with Suh, et al, as players who were likely to be way too expensive.

However, the way the market for safeties has played out since then, that expense may not be so ridiculously high as was once thought. While the media conversation has largely been focused on Reid's (apparent) contention that he's being "black-balled" (no pun intended, but ...) for his political stance, some analysts have been taking note of the fact that (1) several other solid, former starting safeties are also still looking for work, (2) for those who have been signed, the contracts have been much lower than expected, and (3) safety prospects like Justin Reid and Ronnie Harrison - who were projected to be selected in the early 2nd-round, if not the late 1st - ended up falling to #68 and #93, respectively.

This has led to growing speculation that the safety position may now be experiencing a "market correction", in terms of value, similar to what the RB position has experienced over the past few years.

Anyway, the focus has been on Reid for fairly obvious reasons, and he's inadvertently become the default exemplar for my hypothesis. But, he's not the only example - there are others still out there looking for work who may also be "capable starters" and who would likely be considerably less expensive. In a "down market" for safeties, that may translate to "affordable", cap-wise. Even Reid himself may end up with a 2018 cap hit much closer to Chung's $3.6M than to D-Mac's $11.9M (which may now be considered "luxurious", relatively speaking, in the current market context).

Taking this a step further, it's also possible that BB/Caserio saw this context as it was developing and - rather than address the position using draft capital on yet another unproven prospect (Richards, Wilson) - they chose instead to go with AJ Moore (UDFA) and are currently sifting through the several veteran safeties who are still available - IOW, they may be beginning to approach the safety position similarly to the way they've previously approached the RB position - paying a (now) relatively slight premium for proven experience. Richards' 2018 cap hit is $1.18M (not totally unreasonable for a good special-teamer), so, if they can sign an NFL-proven, capable veteran for around $2M, they may be gaining a significant and instant roster improvement for an "upcharge" of roughly $800k.

Again, I'm not saying that this will happen or should happen - just that this may be a more realistic option/opportunity than is popularly assumed.

Anyway, in my hypothesis (which assumes "affordability"), it's not necessary that this veteran FA safety be "better than", but merely more or less equal to the Pats current starting trio. In which case, why would he necessarily be a "backup" who "sits" most of the time? This isn't comparable to, say, RB (or Center) - where there's usually only one on the field at a time. We know that the Pats have been using three safeties for more than half the defensive snaps (and were doing so even before last year's LB scarcity).

Also, under such a circumstance, the re-distribution of snaps at safety wouldn't necessarily be a radical "equal time for everyone" thing. Instead of last year's ...
- D-Mac = 1029
- Chung = 928
- Harmon = 702
- Richards = 272
(2931 total)

... it could be ...
- D-Mac = 900
- Chung = 800
- Harmon = 600
- "Player X" = 550
(2850 total)

Then, of course, all of this seems to inevitably lead to what may have become a sort of "third rail" of cap apportionment discussions.

Chung = $915k base/$3.80M cap hit
Richards = $941k base/$1.18M cap hit
Harmon = $1.50M base/$3.75M cap hit

D-Mac = $7.5M base/$11.94M cap hit
... (and $9.0M base/$13.44M cap hit in 2019)

If Chung, Harmon and Richards, or even "Player X", are being paid like RBs (and it's pretty close), then D-Mac is being paid like Le'Veon Bell. In this "cold business" of NFL football, I personally have to wonder how long that will stand, especially with D-Mac approaching his 31st birthday.
Solid post with a thorough explanation. You make a good case.

It will be interesting to see if Belichick continues forward with the 4 safety looks on 1/4 of the reps, as the season prior, the 3rd safety (Harmon) only received about half of the snaps (48%). A guy like Richards as the 4th safety only saw about 2% of the reps. Will we be going back to more 3 corner sets? Only time will tell.

That still doesn’t address your idea of adding a more proven vet (say, Burnett?) on a “reasonable” type of deal to rotate, but again—I’m personally skeptical that he’d even pay the 3m or so. Who knows what he thinks about one of the safeties that they were grooming on the PS? That will be another variable that factors into the equation.
 
Solid post with a thorough explanation. You make a good case.

It will be interesting to see if Belichick continues forward with the 4 safety looks on 1/4 of the reps, as the season prior, the 3rd safety (Harmon) only received about half of the snaps (48%). A guy like Richards as the 4th safety only saw about 2% of the reps. Will we be going back to more 3 corner sets? Only time will tell.

That still doesn’t address your idea of adding a more proven vet (say, Burnett?) on a “reasonable” type of deal to rotate, but again—I’m personally skeptical that he’d even pay the 3m or so. Who knows what he thinks about one of the safeties that they were grooming on the PS? That will be another variable that factors into the equation.

I certainly wouldn't rule out one of Travis or David Jones developing into a higher-quality safety this off-season, perhaps even starter quality. It would seriously buck historical trends for the Pats, but, without first-had knowledge of the coaches' perspective, anything is possible AFAIK.

There's also another hypothetical alternative for improving the quality of depth at safety - converting a veteran CB who's already on the roster.

Coming out of college, the current "active" safeties measured:
- D-Mac = 5100/195
- Richards = 5110/210
- Chung = 5110/215
- Harmon = 6002/205

I know that most folks think of effective safeties being "bigger" players, like Travis (6006/206), Rowe (6010/205), or D. Jones (6011/205). However, based on the abovelist, from a size perspective, perhaps only Crossen (5091/178), Wiltz (5092/178) and J.Jones (5091/190) might be ruled out.

If Rowe could tackle better (and stay healthy for more than five minutes at a stretch), he might be a leading candidate for "conversion" (he even played some safety in college). But even guys who are a shade under 5110, like Cy Jones (5097/197) and JC Jackson (5096/201) might be included, and perhaps Ryan Lewis (5110/192). Certainly Dawson (5105/197) and AJ Moore (5112/200) would be in the discussion.

Logan Ryan was 5111/191 coming out of Rutgers (and a similar set of coverage schemes) backing 2013. As primarily a "slot corner" in 2016, he was the Pats leading tackler.

For me, what forms the basis for this sort of "out of the box" thought experiment is the fact that, back in 2010, Belichick and Dimitroff (recently gone to the Falcons) each spoke publicly and at length, and independently of one another, about the eventual, scheme-based elimination of the traditional distinction between "strong" and "free" safeties, and eventual crossover between corner and safety roles. This is on top of the fact that the "pattern-matching" coverage concept (which deploys two safeties interchangeably) had it's beginnings with Saban and Belichick in Cleveland about 25 years ago.
 
Finally, some movement with free agent safeties.

 
I wish that the Emperor would get off his throne for a minute and sign one of these guys, but I know that it's not going to happen.
 
If Rowe could tackle better (and stay healthy for more than five minutes at a stretch), he might be a leading candidate for "conversion" (he even played some safety in college). But even guys who are a shade under 5110, like Cy Jones (5097/197) and JC Jackson (5096/201) might be included, and perhaps Ryan Lewis (5110/192). Certainly Dawson (5105/197) and AJ Moore (5112/200) would be in the discussion.

Logan Ryan was 5111/191 coming out of Rutgers (and a similar set of coverage schemes) backing 2013. As primarily a "slot corner" in 2016, he was the Pats leading tackler.

It's interesting that the Pats went from having one of the best-tackling secondaries in 2016 to one that couldn't wrap a Christmas present in SB 52.
 
It's interesting that the Pats went from having one of the best-tackling secondaries in 2016 to one that couldn't wrap a Christmas present in SB 52.
That's why there are some of us who Still want a Safety signed, be it Kenny V, Tre Boston or even the Kneeler Eric Reid, and who wanted the Kneeler's brother drafted instead of the Duke (but Not of Dorchester) Dawson.
 
It's interesting that the Pats went from having one of the best-tackling secondaries in 2016 to one that couldn't wrap a Christmas present in SB 52.

If only there was a way to see which players who played during the regular season and playoffs, didn't manage to get a single snap in the superbowl, resulting in the worst defensive performance in patriots history.
 
If only there was a way to see which players who played during the regular season and playoffs, didn't manage to get a single snap in the superbowl, resulting in the worst defensive performance in patriots history.

It's not over! The thread lives!
 
@ baffling safety market discussion
@maineman209 @supafly

While one can understand why Pats don't make a move (with 3 starting safeties signed for 2-3 years) . still pondering on missed opportunity of getting great player in a garage sale that seems to be this yrs safety market . the reluctance of teams in need of solid veteran safety presence remains mind boggling . here also to experienced NFL insider Bucky Brooks (posted by @reamer in draft board):

NFL oddly devaluing safeties; Baker Mayfield should sit in Year 1
 
@ baffling safety market discussion
@maineman209 @supafly

While one can understand why Pats don't make a move (with 3 starting safeties signed for 2-3 years) . still pondering on missed opportunity of getting great player in a garage sale that seems to be this yrs safety market . the reluctance of teams in need of solid veteran safety presence remains mind boggling . here also to experienced NFL insider Bucky Brooks (posted by @reamer in draft board):

NFL oddly devaluing safeties; Baker Mayfield should sit in Year 1
With these safeties collecting dust on the market me thinks the reason why they are unemployed are teams would rather take a DB with cover skills and move them to FS or just play nickle or dime with 4-5 CBs.
 
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