<rant>When Exactly Did THAT Happen?</rant>

Shed83 said:

Call me a homer but I believe this is an extra pro in Brady's column.......

TB12's game management is much more effective in playing complimentary football. The dink and dunk football keeps the offense on the field and is superbly marshalled by TB12 meaning the defense isn't as exposed and fatigued as Aaron Rodgers style of quarterbacking.

The vertical offense he employs with heaves to Jennings, Nelson etc mean the defense don't get the same breaks that the patriots defense do.

The patriots have had some absolutely awful defenses and the fact they haven't conceded points in the same way as GB is partly down to smart complimentary football by TB12

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Average time of possession by team:

2017:
Green Bay - 29:55 per game (tied-16th in NFL)
New England - 29:55 per game (tied-16th in NFL)

2016:
New England - 31:18 per game (4th)
Green Bay - 31:05 per game (5th)

2015:
Green Bay - 30:06 per game (19th)
New England - 29:46 per game (20th)

2014:
Green Bay - 30:33 per game (12th)
New England - 29:48 per game (18th)

2013:
Green Bay - 30:28 per game (12th)
New England - 29:55 per game (18th)

What you're saying should be reflected in time of possession, but it's not. I'm going to have to disagree, and say that your narrative is unsubstantiated.

Also, have you seen our defense this year? It's complete ass. Should we hold that against Brady? We know Brady is attempting many more intermediate/deep passes than in recent years. Is Brady's playstyle partially to blame? Is he harming our defense? (Just playing devil's advocate, I don't believe there is a correlation between the two, just pointing out that you're swinging a double-edged blade.)

PatsFanInVa said:

To be prosaic: what’s the stat for leadership? Seriously - can you measure how a team responds to the QB, and even if he’s “putting them on his back,” they feed off him and start making plays?

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I agree that leadership is a quality that player's possess, but it's way too nebulous and intangible to try to assign an actual value to it.

Like, look at Super Bowl 49. Brady had one of the most legendary performances in Super Bowl history, carving up one of the greatest defenses of this decade. We were down 24-10 in the 4th and, with surgical precision, he willed us back into the game.

And despite this, we almost lost the game. This is a great example of why I think 4th quarter comebacks are kind of a silly stat. You can engineer a comeback and still lose a game. If not for an improbable interception by Malcolm Butler, we almost certainly fall short. (This is where the predictable responses of, "well, even if they scored there, we had 20 seconds left, NEVER count Tom out! He would've marched downfield and we would've tied the game, I just know it!")

Please do not try to tell me that the aura of Tom Brady elevated Malcolm Butler's abilities and played a part in him intercepting that pass. Brady is the only reason we had any chance of winning that game, but at the same time, Brady sat helplessly on the sidelines when the outcome of that game was decided. It's a team game, don't undersell the importance of that.

GodBrady said:

Average time of possession by team:

2017:
Green Bay - 29:55 per game (tied-16th in NFL)
New England - 29:55 per game (tied-16th in NFL)

2016:
New England - 31:18 per game (4th)
Green Bay - 31:05 per game (5th)

2015:
Green Bay - 30:06 per game (19th)
New England - 29:46 per game (20th)

2014:
Green Bay - 30:33 per game (12th)
New England - 29:48 per game (18th)

2013:
Green Bay - 30:28 per game (12th)
New England - 29:55 per game (18th)

What you're saying should be reflected in time of possession, but it's not. I'm going to have to disagree, and say that your narrative is unsubstantiated.

Also, have you seen our defense this year? It's complete ass. Should we hold that against Brady? We know Brady is attempting many more intermediate/deep passes than in recent years. Is Brady's playstyle partially to blame? Is he harming our defense? (Just playing devil's advocate, I don't believe there is a correlation between the two, just pointing out that you're swinging a double-edged blade.)

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Numbers that may apply to your question.

Patriots Possessions on defense
2017 69 11.5 per game
2016 176. 11 per game.

Offensive possession time
2017 average 6.04 plays 35.9 yards 2.49points 2:36 top

2016 6.02 plays 33.9 yards 2.41 points 2:45 top

So our average offensive drive is 9 seconds shorter which adds up to a little more than a minute and a half a game and we are scoring .08 more points per drive which is about 0.9 ppg.

Defensively
2017 6 plays 38.3 yards 2.22 points 2:37 top


2016 5.7 plays 29.0 yards 1.41 points 2:34 top

So the defense on its 11.5 drives is allowing a total of 3.5 more plays 108 more yards 9 more points and about 35 seconds more top

Looks like the offense is very similar to last year and the defense is in the field an equal amount of time but allowing much more success to the opponent.

I agree with OP. It's a week to week league. How many times have we heard brady and the pats are done? If brady has a bad game.. all of a sudden he's slipping. Haha

What happens if Hundley plays well? Will we hear that Rodgers is a system QB?

Lol someone actually fixed the HTML in the title.

JoeB said:

I agree with OP. It's a week to week league. How many times have we heard brady and the pats are done? If brady has a bad game.. all of a sudden he's slipping. Haha

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Falling off the cliff. Get it right

GodBrady said:

I agree that leadership is a quality that player's possess, but it's way too nebulous and intangible to try to assign an actual value to it.

Like, look at Super Bowl 49. Brady had one of the most legendary performances in Super Bowl history, carving up one of the greatest defenses of this decade. We were down 24-10 in the 4th and, with surgical precision, he willed us back into the game.

And despite this, we almost lost the game. This is a great example of why I think 4th quarter comebacks are kind of a silly stat. You can engineer a comeback and still lose a game. If not for an improbable interception by Malcolm Butler, we almost certainly fall short. (This is where the predictable responses of, "well, even if they scored there, we had 20 seconds left, NEVER count Tom out! He would've marched downfield and we would've tied the game, I just know it!")

Please do not try to tell me that the aura of Tom Brady elevated Malcolm Butler's abilities and played a part in him intercepting that pass. Brady is the only reason we had any chance of winning that game, but at the same time, Brady sat helplessly on the sidelines when the outcome of that game was decided. It's a team game, don't undersell the importance of that.

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Definitely agree. We don't win SB 49 without that Butler interception. How far does the "aura" go? I don't know. I mean, that play's all Malcolm. But if you'll permit me a little of creative TFB homerism...

Butler gets to NE and he sees - and plays against, in practice, and watches in games - TFB the freaking legend.

Butler says "This is that team that's always in the SB, holy crap. I'm really here. How do I justify that?"

Brady engineers the comeback, Butler gets burned by (I believe) Kearse, in Improbable Catch of the Century III, and it's the last 2 SBs all over again. And Butler, being Butler, thinks "short memory make it happen if it's on you." He sees the rub route. He's super-frosty. He recognizes it. He jumps it, if you call it that. He makes the play.

Could you make the argument that the "aura" extends to those tiny nuances of awareness and drive? (But if so, how come this year, NOT?)

I mean, let's pretend that despite everything we know about AR in big games, he puts the Butler from the Bizarro Universe (where he's a Packer) in the same position against the same defense (because in Bizarro World, the Packers are in the AFC and played the 'Hawks in SB 49.)

So everything is the same.

Does he go into that play thinking, I can't be the reason Aaron Rodgers lost this game?

Huuuuge stretch, but deep in my homer soul I think his subjective reality, in that moment, is changed just by Brady proximity.

Or we could just not get butt hurt about this. Aaron Rodgers is good and it sucks to see him get hurt, media hates it because the Packers might not win another game all season and that hurts their ratings.

I think one of the things we all are seemingly forgetting is that an individual's success is MORE reliant on so many others than any other team sport. So multiple pages of people trying to justify their opinions based on the 5-1 Superbowl wins just aren't getting it.

Not saying that the fact Brady HAS 5 wins isn't incredibly impressive, but he was still just one part of a 46 man roster. Sure he's the most important part, but he can't win games on his own.

Now the reason I think Brady is the GOAT comes more from his leadership and innate ability to make those around him better. THAT is something that Rogers hasn't proven that he can do on a consistent basis. Outside of that 2 year period when he had Randy Moss, who has he had to throw to. It took years for Welker and Edelman to make it to a pro-bowl. Corey Dillon might have been the only RB ever to get there as a Patriot. And over the years the Pats have had some very ordinary OL's that were much better as a group than they were as individuals.

Aaron Rogers is a great QB, not just a very skilled one. He is smart, accurate, and tough. Prior to his injury, he was definitely in the conversation of who is the best QB in the league at the present time. But regardless of his stats, as to the current Greatest of ALL time, that is Tom Brady's undisputed crown.....for now.

That being said, there is one stat that I have trouble getting past with Rogers, and that's the fact that in his ENTIRE career, the man has only won a SINGLE overtime game. Now I don't know Brady's record, but its got to be better than the 1-8 number (IIRC) Rodgers has put up.

patfanken said:

That being said, there is one stat that I have trouble getting past with Rogers, and that's the fact that in his ENTIRE career, the man has only won a SINGLE overtime game. Now I don't know Brady's record, but its got to be better than the 1-8 number (IIRC) Rodgers has put up.

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Using Pro Football Reference, I see 9 games in which the Packers have appeared in a playoff game since Favre retired (regular season + overtime):

Here's a summary...
- in 4 of those overtime games, the Packers did not get a possession. They lost the game on the opening drive (remember the old sudden death OT rules).

- in 1 of them, Rodgers didn't even play in the game (Matt Flynn did, Rodgers suffered his first collarbone injury 3 weeks earlier).

- in 1 of them (Redskins, 2010), Rodgers threw a game-deciding interception. He finished 1 of 3.

- in 1 of them (Arizona), Rodgers fumbled after being sacked (fumble returned for TD). He finished 2 of 3.

- in 1 of them (Dolphins), he attempted one pass. He finished 0 of 1.

- in 1 of them, they won (opening drive FG). He finished 1 of 3 (including a 72 yard completion).

So in 8 career overtime games (excluding the 9th Flynn game), Rodgers has 10 career pass attempts. Now you could say, "well, he only has 10 career attempts because he didn't sustain drives". Well... his team didn't even get a possession in half of those games.

Elijah said:

Lol someone actually fixed the HTML in the title.

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I kept looking up what was wrong in my Kernaghan and Ritchie textbook, but it wasn't there. Took me a while...

patfanken said:

I think one of the things we all are seemingly forgetting is that an individual's success is MORE reliant on so many others than any other team sport. So multiple pages of people trying to justify their opinions based on the 5-1 Superbowl wins just aren't getting it.

Not saying that the fact Brady HAS 5 wins isn't incredibly impressive, but he was still just one part of a 46 man roster. Sure he's the most important part, but he can't win games on his own.

Now the reason I think Brady is the GOAT comes more from his leadership and innate ability to make those around him better. THAT is something that Rogers hasn't proven that he can do on a consistent basis. Outside of that 2 year period when he had Randy Moss, who has he had to throw to. It took years for Welker and Edelman to make it to a pro-bowl. Corey Dillon might have been the only RB ever to get there as a Patriot. And over the years the Pats have had some very ordinary OL's that were much better as a group than they were as individuals.

Aaron Rogers is a great QB, not just a very skilled one. He is smart, accurate, and tough. Prior to his injury, he was definitely in the conversation of who is the best QB in the league at the present time. But regardless of his stats, as to the current Greatest of ALL time, that is Tom Brady's undisputed crown.....for now.

That being said, there is one stat that I have trouble getting past with Rogers, and that's the fact that in his ENTIRE career, the man has only won a SINGLE overtime game. Now I don't know Brady's record, but its got to be better than the 1-8 number (IIRC) Rodgers has put up.

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Well, to be accurate, Brady's just one part of 5 separate 46-man rosters spanning 15 years, and the single player those rosters have in common. Just sayin'.

Insert/edit: YES before injury, Rodgers is in the conversation for greatest in the league at the moment. The present moment is within a regular season. This is a very familiar state of affairs.

Your point's well-taken, and so is the point that Rodgers is a really good QB. I'm glad to step away from the Brady ledge, hell, given the time in his career, I'd be happy to find out he's nothing special, a system quarterback, and that this system will win every 3rd SB and play in every second SB forever. Seriously guys, I'm okay with that.

Somewhere between "It's TFB and everybody else don't kid yourself" and "TFB's overrated, right place, right time," lies his real value, GOAT.

As for Rodgers, pick your stat: performance in big games. performance in overtime games. Or pick the "eye test." Maybe if I were a Packers homer I'd find him inspirational. But the one stat you can't say "well plug in [the other guy's receivers/coach/schedule]" for is what really happened.

I've definitely got my druthers, but rather than trying to remove confounding factors for indications of things like "accuracy" and "arm strength," -- as is clear by my other posts -- I'm biased toward the argument from winning stuff, especially big stuff like SBs.

So I get it, AR has a ring from his first season as a starter. Just like Tom Brady. After that, Brady got 2 more by the time he was at the comparable point AR's in in his career, then got 2 more in recent years.

(IOW, I agree w you)

People will remember AR, I'm okay with that. But what can I say, he needs to find better groups of 45 guys to hang out with. Or it might be, in part, that he needs to make them better, especially when it really matters.

SEA_Pat said:

I kept looking up what was wrong in my Kernaghan and Ritchie textbook, but it wasn't there. Took me a while...

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What did it say originally?

By the way - and I hope AR passes this test with flying colors - his next "Brady comparison" test is on the way: How he comes back from a season ending injury.

You can never compare 2 different injuries, please don't anybody jump on me for having a faulty standard of "good at recovering." But we don't know whether "Rodgers as we know him" returns.

As I said, I hope he does. There's no arguing that he's a joy to watch.

PatsFanInVa said:

he needs to find better groups of 45 guys to hang out with. Or it might be, in part, that he needs to make them better, especially when it really matters.

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Indeed. Rodgers has never 'made' a single late round, undrafted or castoff WR and turned them into a major contributor the way Brady has done multiple times. I pointed this out in another thread, but all of Rodgers' top receivers on offense each & every year have been top 100 draft picks. They actually average out to be 70th overall. (Excluding Driver who was already established from the Favre era.) Those top 100 picks are Nelson, Cobb, Jennings, Finley, Adams, Jones, R Rodgers and Montgomery.

Brady has done it so many times that you can argue it's had a major impact on how the Pats have drafted & spent money towards improving other areas of the team.

NE-VT said:

It is possible to believe:

1) Tob Brady is the Goat

and

2) Aaron Rodgers is the best right now (pre-injury).

I think people hear the second claim in the media, and think that the media is denying the first claim. Whether or not 2) is true is a separate issue.

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I love Rodgers.

Any claim that he is the best at a point in time when the greatest ever is playing the best football of his career is severely flawed. People see his physical attributes and so want him to be the best. They see him scrambling, the hail marys, and want to make reasons for him to be the best. And to be honest, at times he seems that way. And you look at McCarthy and wonder why a guy like Rodgers has spent this long in his career playing for such a moron. I mean, the difference between he and Belichick is massive.

But is there anyone who thinks down 24-14 Rodgers comes back against the Seahawks? Is there anyone who thinks he makes the comeback against the Ravens? Or Broncos the year before? Nevermind the Falcons in SB51.

Rodgers is phenomenal but the biggest factor for him is his passer rating, which there is a decent advantage for him over Brady. But the highest correlation of of passing to wins is adjusted net yards per attempt, to which Brady is ahead since Rodgers has been in the league. Brady has undeniably been better since 2014, and has a resume Rodgers will never touch.

TBR said:

Indeed. Rodgers has never 'made' a single late round, undrafted or castoff WR and turned them into a major contributor the way Brady has done multiple times. I pointed this out in another thread, but all of Rodgers' top receivers on offense each & every year have been top 100 draft picks. They actually average out to be 70th overall. (Excluding Driver who was already established from the Favre era.) Those top 100 picks are Nelson, Cobb, Jennings, Finley, Adams, Jones, R Rodgers and Montgomery.

Brady has done it so many times that you can argue it's had a major impact on how the Pats have drafted & spent money towards improving other areas of the team.

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I completely agree. The fact that our offense is able to thrive with lesser receiver talent has been a major component to our success. This is the same reason that Brady's production numbers are more impressive than Manning's (that, and the dome).

Yet this "make more out of less" is a function of many things, including Brady's skills prior to coming to NE, our scheme that rewards player intelligence over raw physical tools, and BB's player evaluation aptitude. Furthermore, these factors are are all intertwined. BB saw the potential in his rookie 4th string QB, helped development him, etc. Brady clearly has had input in our offensive evolution. As we won UDFA were more likely to come to us, etc. The Patriots have been a perfect storm of football domination in the cap-era.

So blaming Rodgers for not making castoffs better all on him is a bit unfair IMO. Its not all on him.

But once again, I have simply been presenting the other side. Brady is the GOAT and it is not close.

The thing that separates TB12 from these mortal men is when the pressures on, the games on the line he commands his team with calm assertive leadership and the team follows. They all believe in him and just do what their job is, TB takes care of the rest. He's been snatching victories from the jaws of defeat since he was a kid. He's got something these other guys dont.

TBR said:

Indeed. Rodgers has never 'made' a single late round, undrafted or castoff WR and turned them into a major contributor the way Brady has done multiple times. I pointed this out in another thread, but all of Rodgers' top receivers on offense each & every year have been top 100 draft picks. They actually average out to be 70th overall. (Excluding Driver who was already established from the Favre era.) Those top 100 picks are Nelson, Cobb, Jennings, Finley, Adams, Jones, R Rodgers and Montgomery.

Brady has done it so many times that you can argue it's had a major impact on how the Pats have drafted & spent money towards improving other areas of the team.

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Not only has it had a major impact, it is by far the single biggest reason for our team's success. Brady allows them to remain competitive while dealing with multiple weaknesses. The failure or lack of a first player taken in the draft the past 3-4 years is just one example of how we're able to overcome obstacles that would pretty much bury the majority of franchises.