Cleveland fans don't value JAG

bruce_w · Mar 10, 2017

brdmaverick said:
Right, but that's also the problem (small sample size).

There were games in 2008 in which Matt Cassel looked not just serviceable but Pro Bowl worthy (such as at MIA and vs NYJ).

We all know Cassel didn't become someone else's franchise quarterback.

Cassel struggled with every part of his game every time I saw him. He was on a team that went 18-1 the year before. Osweiler has always reminded me of Matt Cassel.

patsfan-1982 · Mar 10, 2017

he can read a defense and has a quick release that's about 80% of what you need to be a starting QB in the NFL. will he be a Aaron Rodgers type super star good a nuff to take a team with little talent deep into the playoffs i don't know but he would be the best QB the browns have had since Bernie Kosar

patsfanincleveland · Mar 10, 2017

Rob0729 said:
Garoppolo could be a franchise QB, but there is no guarantees. That is their apprehension.

If the roles were reversed and the Pats were rumored to be trying to trade to get Jimmy G, I guarantee you many people on this board who are saying you can't trade Garoppolo or they wouldn't trade him for less than two firsts would be saying that they wouldn't give up more than a second for him. That is how NFL fandom works.

I would certainly hope that never happens but the reality is that patsfans.com also suffers from a certain lack of reality awareness based on their own faulty bias.

A huge holdup here on talk radio is based on Brian Hoyer being a former Pats QB. This in no small way drives apprehension.

In reality, Hoyer started games in 2013 and 2014 and went 9-4 as a starter. In 2014, they blew out the Steelers at First Energy, Hoyer engineered a win in Tennessee being down 28-3 (look familiar?), and had the Browns in first place Week 11 after hammering the Bengals in Cincy.

It was someone else who decided to draft Manziel (homeless guy) and then force him into a starting roll along with a clueless Josh Gordon.

Also, the Cassel an is interesting. What people always forget is that KC won a division in 2010 with Romeo and Charlie as coordinators.

Of all the QB's in the discussion this year.........JG is the only one that looks to have the potential to lead a franchise to win a Super Bowl.

Kirk Cousins isn't it. Cutler isn't it and I doubt that any of these prospects are it.

Since that question never gets asked........it's never put into that context.

brdmaverick · Mar 10, 2017

bruce_w said:
Cassel struggled with every part of his game every time I saw him. He was on a team that went 18-1 the year before. Osweiler has always reminded me of Matt Cassel.

I feel like Cassel's lack of success outside of New England has completely changed people's perception of how he played when he was on the Patriots. If you saw Cassel struggle every time you watched him then you were not watching most of the games in 2008. I'm not even a huge Cassel support but I oddly find myself defending him b/c people want to make it out like he was a terrible QB for us.

I feel like the argument of 'he was on an 18-1 team the year before' is so misused. By the same logic I could say he won 11 games with a team that only went 10-6 a year later WITH TOM BRADY! Both seasons are both a year removed so I just prefer to review Cassel based on his actual body of work.

brdmaverick · Mar 10, 2017

IllegalContact said:
Using that logic, then drafting QBs in round 1 is even more stupid

I'm sure the coaches will be watching some college tape.......and I bet they'll be watching more than 6 quarters.

Me, personally, I spend all Sunday watching the NFL so I don't watch college football. So like you I only have 6 quarters of review of JG.

I think there is a difference in coach/GM expectations with drafting a QB vs. JG. While going with JG may be the smarter approach for the team, it probably puts more pressure on the coach. With a rookie QB coaches should at least have a leash to rebuild a bit. With JG, they'll be expecting results right away and there is no hiding for the coach especially when you consider the picks and cash it will take to bring him in. if JG isn't the real deal, the coach is going down with the ship. I like JG so I hope he turns out to be an above average player, but we'll see.

Nunchucks · Mar 10, 2017

Nobody wanted to see the patriots in the 2008 playoffs

brdmaverick · Mar 10, 2017

Nunchucks said:
Nobody wanted to see the patriots in the 2008 playoffs

Agreed. I'll just never understand this revisionist history of trying to make it seem that Cassel was a bad quarterback in 2008. We were able to trade him for a 2nd round pick for goodness sake, and many here were expecting a first.

YOUGOTMOSSED · Mar 10, 2017

BobDigital said:
The Cleveland front office looks at Jimmy G and sees a high chance at a franchise QB for 10-15 years who will play at a good level (no certainly but a better than fair shot).

Looking at the Cleveland forum most fans laugh at the idea of trading a first round pick at all.

Garoppolo Watch: March Edition

Many of them seem happy to pick from a crop of QBs this year that stink or go with Kessler. The idea of giving up the #12 seems too high a price for many and 2 is near laughable to them.

My question is this: What the heck are many of these fans thinking? Yes draft picks are great and valuable. Yes football is a team sport and throwing away everything else to get a QB gets you no where. Yes, maybe JAG turns out not to be that good. All possible and fair points.

Here is the truth. Picks hit and miss. The QBs this year are not good no matter how much you try to talk yourself into them. Kessler is not your answer.

In fact the worst thing they can do is draft a QB this year. If I was a cleveland fan I would be pounding the table not to do it. If drafting is the way you want to get your QB accept you will be bad this year and bet big on next year.

I just was shocked at the disconnect here. It is like they assume that Kessler will somehow magically turn out to be decent (he won't) or this years QBs hold reasonable promise (they don't).

I know ultimately the Browns front office makes the call but these fans need to get their heads on straight. The only thing I can assume is it has been so long since they have had decent QB play they have no idea what it looks like anymore.

Browns fans didn't value Belichick either. How'd that one work out?

patfanken · Mar 10, 2017

So now we are judging the chances of trading JG by what we read from a Browns message board?

Clearly we have jumped the shark on this topic. No need to read past page one on this baby.

Just one question I would have for Cleveland fans. You guys have had about 25 years of high first round draft picks, sometimes multiple first round draft picks. So there should be NO better fan base in the league who should understand more that having those picks has no correlation with winning games. No fan base should understand more how so often those picks do NOT translate into good players.

So, why do you think a QB who thrived against 2 of the better defenses in the league, isn't a better risk than the 12th pick in the draft, especially when you can remember all the failures you had with the #1 pick or the #2 pick or the #6 pick, etc, etc?????

bruce_w · Mar 10, 2017

brdmaverick said:
I feel like Cassel's lack of success outside of New England has completely changed people's perception of how he played when he was on the Patriots. If you saw Cassel struggle every time you watched him then you were not watching most of the games in 2008. I'm not even a huge Cassel support but I oddly find myself defending him b/c people want to make it out like he was a terrible QB for us.

I feel like the argument of 'he was on an 18-1 team the year before' is so misused. By the same logic I could say he won 11 games with a team that only went 10-6 a year later WITH TOM BRADY! Both seasons are both a year removed so I just prefer to review Cassel based on his actual body of work.

You need to rewatch those games. He never had a great game.

convertedpatsfan · Mar 10, 2017

Noexcusesfornumber5 said:
As much as us Pats fans would love to see us getting the most in a trade for, or seeing him lead us to SB's 7-9, I would definitely hesitate to trade for JG at the current asking price if I were a team like the Browns.

The upside is there, no doubt. However, there was zero tape on him, or Brissett. How many times have we been Matt Flynn'd (We called it the Scott Mitchell effect, back in my day) by a team we had no tape on. If BB can't stop a guy without tape on him, of course the other coaches can't either. That makes both of our guys look good going into the season. Everyone knows the rule, get a season of tape on a guy and you can find a way to slow him down. I'm quite sure JG is more than NFL ready, but the small sample size is just that, a small sample size of NFL play during the starting gun point of the season. He's not end of the season ready, he's not playoff ready, and he's certainly not SB ready, no matter he's seen.

That being said, fleece the whole draft board for JG BB, and if you get Larry Fitz somehow, we'll rename Martha's Vineyard into Bill Belichick's Trophy Island.

How much tape was there on Favre when the Packers traded for him?

Yeah, it's a risk. So is drafting one in the first round, like the Browns have done with Manziel and Weeden and Quinn and Couch (and the #22 pick overall has not been kind to them, as Manziel, Weeden and Quinn were all drafted at the same spot).

There isn't much tape on Jimmy G, but you see basic ****, like being able to take a snap under center, take a few steps and throw in rhythm. I am not joking, this matters. Because if you draft one of the QBs in the first round, you're going to spend the first year or two teaching them how to do this basic thing that most college QBs no longer do, and not every college QB ends up figuring it out.

Browns fans may not value Jimmy G properly, but what the **** do they know about what makes a good football player or team? They haven't seen anything resembling that for decades now. I wouldn't ask some virgin for advice on love, why the hell do I care what Browns fans think about what makes a good quarterback?

brdmaverick · Mar 11, 2017

bruce_w said:
You need to rewatch those games. He never had a great game.

Dude, you're insane if you think that BACK TO BACK weeks of 400+ yards and 3 TDs does not qualify as great games. Add in another 345 yard / 3 TD performance against the eventual NFC champs and I don't even have to go any further than that.

So honestly I have no idea what you were thinking with your response because it is so inaccurate.

Jlaff · Mar 12, 2017

brdmaverick said:
Agreed. I'll just never understand this revisionist history of trying to make it seem that Cassel was a bad quarterback in 2008. We were able to trade him for a 2nd round pick for goodness sake, and many here were expecting a first.

Something I always found funny, I won my keeper league with Cassel as my QB the year Brady went down, but didn't win the prior year when Brady threw 50 touchdowns

bruce_w · Mar 12, 2017

brdmaverick said:
Dude, you're insane if you think that BACK TO BACK weeks of 400+ yards and 3 TDs does not qualify as great games. Add in another 345 yard / 3 TD performance against the eventual NFC champs and I don't even have to go any further than that.

So honestly I have no idea what you were thinking with your response because it is so inaccurate.

Hey bud, if you think Matt Cassel is or ever has been, even an above average NFL QB then have it. Jimmy is on another planet and a few years will tell how laughable your position is.

convertedpatsfan · Mar 12, 2017

bruce_w said:
Hey bud, if you think Matt Cassel is or ever has been, even an above average NFL QB then have it. Jimmy is on another planet and a few years will tell how laughable your position is.

You're moving the goal posts here. You said he never had a great game that season. That was clearly wrong. Now you're saying Cassel obviously has never been an above-average QB. That wasn't the original discussion, and you know that. Nobody is voting for Cassel for the HOF, so don't bother making that argument next either.

borg · Mar 12, 2017

CBSsports.com has an article sure to excite picky Browns fans. The team's plan: Keep Brock /draft 2 QBs

Report: Browns have no immediate plans to cut Osweiler, could take two QBs in draft

Let's examine Cleveland's QB history

List of Cleveland Browns starting quarterbacks - Wikipedia

Regarding Cassel.....IMO....Cassel was the perfect #2 QB. I've always believed that the back up QB must be a quality scrambler able to make plays with his legs. Lack of weekly preparation and underprepared for the speed of real NFL action, the #2 needs to be able to elude and to gain yards on broken plays. That was Cassel's game in 2008.

And.....if Charlie Weiss stayed on in KC, I believe we all would view Cassel a bit differently. Weiss was the best at identifying a QB's skill set and building an offense that compliments that skill set. He did it with young Brady and he did it for Cassel.
When Charlie came on board for KC in 2010, Cassel threw 27 TDs, 7 INTs, with a rating of 93.....a huge leap in production compared to Cassel's 1st year in KC. Of course Todd Haley made a power play and headstrong Charlie bolted for the Gators....and Cassel regressed...eventually getting knocked out with a knee injury.

Patsfanin Philly · Mar 12, 2017

bruce_w said:
Cassel struggled with every part of his game every time I saw him. He was on a team that went 18-1 the year before. Osweiler has always reminded me of Matt Cassel.

I have to disagree. For a guy who hadn't started since high school, he had 7 games with a QB rating of over 100 and two consecutive 400 yard games.one of which was a shootout loss to Favre and the Jets where Cassel more than held his own.......

Simpelton · Mar 12, 2017

bruce_w said:
Cassel struggled with every part of his game every time I saw him. He was on a team that went 18-1 the year before. Osweiler has always reminded me of Matt Cassel.

That's not really fair to Cassell though, someone used to Brady would see tons of deficiencies in any quarterback. Cassell did pretty well for what he was, a good not great quarterback who can fill the role but is not, and never was elite.

Cassell's CV after he left New England is an average quarterback who won't carry a terrible team but can win with a good team around him. That is actually more than we know about Garoppolo right now

bruce_w · Mar 12, 2017

Simpelton said:
That's not really fair to Cassell though, someone used to Brady would see tons of deficiencies in any quarterback.

Good point about the comparison to Brady. So how does Jimmy G look? Thats right, you better be a damn good player if you want to look good next to Brady. Jimmy passes that test with flying colors. Cassel was flying by the seat of pants, long laboring mechanics, poor field vision, awful timing and rhythm. He did have the size. thats about it.

Simpelton said:
That is actually more than we know about Garoppolo right now.

Don't include me in the "we". I have seen enough, apparently so has the best coach in the history of sports.

Simpelton · Mar 12, 2017

Your blind faith in Garoppplo is touching but there is a lot more to being a starting QB than how you look in the first 6 quarters of your professional life.

Health is a massive factor, you can't be meaningfully elite if you are not on the field and the fact that he got hurt so quick is a very ominous sign and I am not surprised so many fans point it out as the major red flag it is.

Say what you want about Cassell he was on the field for every snap he was supposed to be. That was not true of garoppolo

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