Do you think Kiper knows what the coaches know?

The older I get the more convinced I am that nobody knows anything. It's all a big effing charade.

Except Chomsky. That dude has stuff figured out pretty much.

PATSNUTme said:

Bill Tobin vs Mel Kiper - 1994 Part 2 - YouTube

Ask Bill Tobin.

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The awesomeness in that clip, is just well, awesome..

SVN said:

Gotta give it time. How many people were excited when BB moved up and picked Chad Jackson. Anyone else thought he would be as big a bust ?

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The scouts and the Pats WR coach did.

patsfan13 said:

Kiper has his board which is based on his abstraction of talent. The Patriots have their board based on talent. However the analysis for the Patriots includes how a player fits THEIR SCHEME and THEIR LOCKER ROOM. Kiper little book doesn't and really can't factor that in for 32 teams.

When Kiper criticizes a team when the diverge from his board it is silly since he doesn't know a teams scheme and loker room needs as well as teams with competent management and team philosophy.


BTW making the Patriots roster is a lot tougher than making a lot of other rosters.

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Fair analysis but the Pats motto is "value". When I hear him use that it is almost a swear. This Wilson kid was not a second round pick I don't care if BB is the best ever. Please no..... In BB we trust, stuff.

I think BB got in late this evening and someone else made the pick, The fifth he got from GB at #163 gets this kid with slots to spare. Watch his tape. Mediocre to poor. If you tell me we used a second round pick for an ST gunner that would really hurt my feelings. Or if you had a shot at #48 to get a Curry, a Still or a Randle and someone waterboarded you to take this kid at #90, so be it. One of those three will be long term contributors to some NFL Team. This kid might have lasted until a UDFA.

Lets give BB the benefit of the doubt. He is only tied for the worst pick of the day with the Jaguars taking a punter in round three. I think the same guy (the janitor?) that picked Malcomb whatsis name last year in the 2011 Draft did this pick. Perhaps his parakeet was named Tavon or he really liked the movie Castaway and Wilson was his favorite character. BB must have been some pysed when he walked into that war room.

Another scenario: The ghost of Al Davis made this pick when none of the other 31 Teams would chase you at that slot and you by golly are going to make that pick anyway and show them all. Wasn't that #48 Pick, Oaklands' Pick? Was this headscratcher a Tribute to Al Davis? Bill, this guy does not have the prerequisite speed!

Note to Bill B: Please don't ever use the word "value" unless it actually means that. You wasted a second which I know is your sink or swim slot in each Draft. You had us eating out of your hand last night, then this. Come on Bill . This was no where near value.


This kid is out of the league by year three and is setting up a Surf shop rental on the Cape with Wheatley on the money they fleeced Kraft out of as second round choices.

On a different note. Statistics say only two picks will make it by year three anyway. I am thinking yesterday. I guess we should not be so hard on this kid. Looks like he needs the money. It's not his fault he was over drafted.

Weap not Pats fans. We won't get but two players from the Draft anyway.17% success rate per league average.
DW Toys

Bill, this guy does not have the prerequisite speed!

he's far faster than James Sanders 4.68 forty...you remember James Sanders, right?...oh, and he's taller than Sanders by an inch and a half...and he played both corners, safety and was a gunner for Illinois St. last season.

I get it ...you just hate the kid from jump street...for no other reason than his speed...which curiously is a full second and half in the 40 faster than the starting safety from 2010 that everyone cried and wailed and moaned about when he was let go last season...I mean, it's hard to imagine hating the kid because he doesn't have super versatility...or maybe you just hate that a professional NFL head coach made a decision that doesn't fit into your narrow parameters of what a successful NFL coach should select on draft day...I mean, given your wealth of experience manning the player boards in NFL draft war rooms....

SVN said:

Gotta give it time. How many people were excited when BB moved up and picked Chad Jackson. Anyone else thought he would be as big a bust ?

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I think the comparisons don't have as much merit as you may initally think.

The WR position itself has proven to be very difficult to learn here, with the read and react route tree + chemistry with Brady something that other WR's with some talent have taken for granted.

I get what you're saying though, but it's a lot better to be optimistic than it is pessimistic; and no matter what, we have received some of the depth and increased competition that we needed in an immediate way..and to top that off, we did it in a draft that was by all accounts, pretty weak in itself.

By choosing versatile players who can play multiple positions, in multiple fronts and schemes, Belichick has increased his odds of finding a place on the defense for these players to show some kind of talent and contribution.

That cannot be said for the WR position, or the Chad Jackson pick...who either made it in one spot, or he didn't. If one or more of these players look shoddy in one of their assignments or responsibilities, Belichick may very well still be able to find them something they can contribute in.

DE/OLB/SITUATIONAL PASS RUSHER/DT/CB (outside or inside slot), and S

There are plenty of possible "fits" here for the players that have been chosen so far, something that a player like C.Jackson couldn't dream of.

I don't mind the pick, but was it really necessary to get this guy at 48, especially when there were quite a few studs left on the board?!
Maybe BB knew somebody else was looking at this kid and we needed the S slot filled badly. We will never know...

the value thing for me is tied in with how he turns out. If he turns out to be a great player then I'm willing to give BB the benefit of the doubt and assume that there were other teams ready to take him in close proximity. I know that's not the best logic, but it's a better indicator than any other information we are likely to receive. Plus who really gives a crap if he's good whether the Pats failed to eek out another late round pick?

I did some digging around this morning, having never heard of Wilson. He was clearly on the radar of quite a few NFL teams, regardless of what the draftniks (who, as we have established, don't work for NFL teams) may tell you:

Scout.com: Tavon Wilson Profile and the links on the bottom left of the page. It may explain why they decided to "reach" for him. I have no idea whether the pick will pan out, though.

gomezcat said:

I did some digging around this morning, having never heard of Wilson. He was clearly on the radar of quite a few NFL teams, regardless of what the draftniks (who, as we have established, don't work for NFL teams) may tell you:

Scout.com: Tavon Wilson Profile and the links on the bottom left of the page. It may explain why they decided to "reach" for him. I have no idea whether the pick will pan out, though.

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I think this is the right way to look at this. In reality unless some more info comes out, we have no idea when this kid was going to be picked by other teams. When he was picked is a seperate issue to if he is any good. Much like Solder last year when there was a large contingent of the board last year who said we could have gotten him at the end of the 1st/early 2nd we then later find out there were 2 or 3 teams who wanted him after our pick at 17.

There have already been rumours that the chargers wanted wilson, we just don't know.

Now on a side note watching the tape so far on the kid and i am underwhelmed, he seems slow to react and a little timid going into contact.

But once again all i can say is i am giving him the year to see how he goes. I loved the Butler pick when it happened... he didn't work out. So i guess it's a wait and see thing

When the Pats turn to pick at #48 came up BB, Caserio, Adams(?) determined that Wilson was the best addition to the current.

Now BB has certainly made numerous mistakes, however even with his questionable ability to judge talent somehow the team has been the the SB 5 times in the last 10 years and he has rebuilt the roster in the past 3 years.

Perhaps this kid won't work out maybe he will. But which team has been more successful than the Pats and which front office/media expert would you rather have assemble our roster each year?

Mel Kiper + ESPN = Complete BS.

In terms of player knowledge, Kiper doesn't know anywhere near what the coaching staffs do; however, Gasper made a good point just now on the Sports Hub, that guys like him are a bridge between the fan, media members and the draft. I enjoy listening to Kiper, McShay, Mayock (more so) just to get different viewpoints on players.

Let's face it-the draft, at its best, is a big educated guess. Some teams like the Steelers, Packers, Ravens and Patriots do it better year in and year out, but it's not a definite science.

Good point the 'experts' are entertainment for the fans, don't take them as seriously as some of them take themselves.

Why?PJ said:

he never had any insider knowledge. No one employed by any NFL team has told him anything, and it has been made rather clear they all hate his guts. Can't blame them.

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Not to mention that Mel hates picks like this because they expose and just make him look bad by proving that his ability/knowledge evaluating players in the draft really is quite pedestrian compared to the likes of BB.

Patriot Missile said:

I don't agree with a lot of Kipers views but I do at least recognize him as one of the pioneers of the NFL draft coverage. The guy has a great memory and for him to put the names of just about every player into his head has always amazed me. Dude is an encyclopedia but he's got a lot of inaccurate wikopedia in some of his analysis of these players. Especially when it come to the Patriots who are 1 of a kind.

I don't think he is privy to the coaches like he used to be but he does has all the access all the footage and his is paid to attend games and commentate. Personally I like other guys better out there but because of his long history in his job he will always be relevant. And deservedly so.

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Agree. Kiper has helped create the spectacle that the draft has become and I for one enjoy it very much.

I spend zero time reading Kiper or any other analyst. you what to know where I learn about potential draft picks and prospects? This board.

The reason I pay no attention to the Kiper crowd is simple: not once have I ever heard any so-called expert say, Yeah, this kid is projected to be a high pick, but in fact he is going to be a complete bust. Why don't they say that? Because they don't know who the busts are going to be. Therefore, at least the way my besotted and befuddled mind works...that means they don't know who the gems will be either. Really, listening to those guys is like getting your weather from a weatherman who only ever predicts warm sunny weather. Yes, he will be right some of the time, but hell, anyone can do that.

jsull87 said:

Now on a side note watching the tape so far on the kid and i am underwhelmed, he seems slow to react and a little timid going into contact.

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What tape did you watch? I watched the videos from the Patriot Draftee video thread and he did not appear "timid' going into contact. He's not the enforcer, big hitter type, but he will take on blockers, and affectively takcle big backs and TEs. He is disciplined and very deliberate, maintaining good position and taking good angles. He seems to be a good tacker and active in trying to strip the ball. He plays to the whistle and seems to have pretty good awareness. He's not a burner, but is certainly faster than Sanders was. He rarely turns his head when the ball is in the air and is sometimes slow to react to the run. Don't forget, 7 teams had visits with the kid.

Forgot to mention, the kid has good hips and played all over the secondary.

jsull87 said:

I think this is the right way to look at this. In reality unless some more info comes out, we have no idea when this kid was going to be picked by other teams. When he was picked is a seperate issue to if he is any good. Much like Solder last year when there was a large contingent of the board last year who said we could have gotten him at the end of the 1st/early 2nd we then later find out there were 2 or 3 teams who wanted him after our pick at 17.

There have already been rumours that the chargers wanted wilson, we just don't know.

Now on a side note watching the tape so far on the kid and i am underwhelmed, he seems slow to react and a little timid going into contact.

But once again all i can say is i am giving him the year to see how he goes. I loved the Butler pick when it happened... he didn't work out. So i guess it's a wait and see thing

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Bottomline he gives our secondary depth, and someone who can play S or CB in emergency, which we know WILL happen as it does every year in our beaten up secondary.

What good would it be to draft a WR or DL who would be way deep in the depth chart behind vets we've signed.

All you chicken little's going nuts over Tavon is incredible. Let him have his shot. None of the draft gurus, coaches, experts can rip open and measure his HEART. The guy has fought thru massive adversity in his life being orphaned at 12, and in the scheme of things has the courage and mental fortitude to continue and be successful. Rodney Harrison did not have the MEASURABLES either.

We drafted S #1 in Merriweather......with all the skills and talent the guy was an absolute bonehead of a player.

BB mantra is DO YOUR JOB. Team will ask Wilson to do his JOB, not to be a freelancing Laron Landry bust.

I want these type of players on our team to learn from the veterans ahead of them, not the useless Jenkins or Landry or Merriweather type who have all the talent but missing a few brain cells.

We've had bigger busts in Round 2....Jackson, Bethel, Klemm, Hill,.......and many more.