Tom Brady throwing coach Tom House assesses Mac

[Tunescribe]

JFC listening to Tom house is as riveting as watching paint dry... good info, but take a bump or something Tom....

He normally tap-dances, juggles and makes balloon animals during interviews, maybe this one occurred on his lunch break.

 

[patsfan13]

I enjoy listening to a guy like House, Greg Cosell and Dante Scarnecchia are other examples because of their content don’t care about the delivery

 

[upstater1]

It's not amazing at all.

The narrative was that Mac lacked elite physical talent to develop into a high end NFL QB - but was a smart kid who knows how to play and would have a high floor. They might be wrong but Mac has not really altered the narrative.

It's like in the NBA when a team drafts a top shooter without a ton of athletic ability. He needs to prove he can do more then run off picks and hit threes.

Elite physical talent? Really?

I submit they don't know what they're watching.

For years these rubes have been salivating over guys that are either on benches or not in the NFL anymore while disparaging Brady and his skills. I mean, the Raiders selected Jamarcus Russell #1. The Bills took EJ Manuel in the 1st round, the Colts took Jeff George. Athletic skills through the roof. They couldn't play QB worth a lick but whatever.

There's a lot more to QBing than running and throwing hard.

This stud QB in Buffalo developed into what he is today, he was not so good his first few years, but even though he's fast and throws hard, it really doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things. He reminds me of Elway a lot, and though people love Elway, Elway was a guy who could never win it big by himself, had questionable accuracy his whole career, and not until Denver got a running game (aided by illegal OL cutblocks) was he able to win one at the age of 38.

My point is, I would not be surprised at all if Mac Jones's ceiling is so much higher than what people are saying. Why? Because most of QBing is moving in the pocket, throwing quickly, diagnosing defenses, anticipating, which allows you to get your feet set and throw from a base, and most of all, accuracy.

 

[upstater1]

I’m in the Brady worshipper camp. Mac pretty clearly has an average or below average arm, but it is not a “weak” arm. And with a good offseason workout program, there’s no reason he can’t improve his arm strength. Mac also seems to have the it factor when it comes to understanding defenses and making the proper read and getting rid of the ball quickly. And he seems to have good accuracy and touch on his throws. His ceiling is very high.

This reminds me of something that ESPN Sports Science pointed out about Brady that many people could never understand. Sports Science did a thing on the velocity of Brady's throws, and they stated that while Brady's arm didn't compete with the top arms they had either in the studio or at combines and pro days, no one threw the ball harder or with more velocity during a game.

I submit that a QB who can read Ds, get set up quickly, can then also throw the ball harder than a QB with a bigger arm simply because his mechanics are right. As bad as Cam Newton looks throwing the ball right now, it would not surprise me if he has a cannon in combine type tests when compared to most QBs, but the guy is never set when he throws, like EVER, he throws off his back foot, diagnoses late, and his balls look like they'll never get there.

We don't know what we have in Mac yet, and we won't know for a couple years. I just hope he sticks with McD for a few years because that will go a long way in making him a great QB.

 

[upstater1]

I think Mac is good enough, in the right setting, to be good enough. I anticipate he will improve in his physical skills/strength going forward. I do NOT agree that he "can be an elite quarterback as good as any of them." His ceiling, I think, is such that he will never be the star Allen or Mahomes, for example, have already shown themselves to be. The stunning rise of Brady was a HUGE historical outlier: it will not recur. I do hope Mac works with House. It was an encouraging and interesting interview with another star, Phil the Senator.

How is it a historic outlier?

Some of the greatest QBs in the NFL repeatedly show the same skill set that Brady excelled in. I mean, we used to talk about Marino and Montana, who were both greater than Elway. Quick throwers, great at moving around the pocket, accurate, threw with zip because they knew the game. And even though everyone salivated over Elway as being the greatest most skilled QB to ever come out of college, he showed that he couldn't read defenses well, he used to drive the ball into the ground often.

It seems to me the Brady prototype has been the most successful one in NFL history. The only one to ever break that mold is Mahomes. He may truly be the best of the new breed, but we'll have to wait and see ACTII. Or at least post Tyreek (I consider Tyreek the most unusual player I've ever seen in 45 years of watching).

Even Manning was in the Brady mold. Manning did not have an especially strong arm.

Seriously, Brady, Manning, Montana, Marino--makes me wonder if people would say the same about these people given NFL history. Even Brees did not have a strong arm (though unlike the 4 QBs I mentioned above, Brees came in with the ability to run, but in his 30s, Brees stopped running).

I am not projected Mac Jones as the next Brady, Montana, Manning or Brees -- but can someone explain what these QBs had ver Mac in terms of natural ability?

 

[TinhWoodhead]

I first read “Tom Brady throwing coach Tom House under the bus”

 

[captain stone]

We don't know what we have in Mac yet, and we won't know for a couple years...

I think we'll have a Much better idea of what we have in Mac one year from now.

 

[Sicilian]

I think we'll have a Much better idea of what we have in Mac one year from now.

Better, but not complete. Josh Allen had worse stats in year 2 than Mac had as a rookie. His big leap came in year three. Not that that's the path every QB should be expected to take, just that Mac definitely won't be reaching his peak next year (even if he does improve noticeably).

Allen's stats for reference:

 

[jal]

Mac's upside is realistically Chad Pennington pre-shoulder injury (he was a monster for those not old enough to remember 2002). At the extreme if surrounded by appropriate talent and scheme, his ceiling is probably Drew Brees. I'm quite happy to have Mac - he has the inherent processing speed and accuracy to find that pathway which has produced hugely successful qbs. He won't become a great QB the same way Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers have but that's not the only way to skin a cat.

He's not the same as Brady or Peyton - they were bigger guys and did have bigger arms even if not historically great arms. And while Mac could likely match a Joe Montana in arm strength he doesn't seem to have that dazzling pocket presence of Joe Cool (and Brady) or Joe's ability to make plays on the move.

Imagine Brees on the Pats of 2001-2019: stronger defense and team that is situationally elite, with perhaps less cap / resources given to the offense. Stats would be worse but winning results likely even better than what Brees did with the Saints. Won't be Brady but I could easily see winning a couple of rings over a 15 year period with consistent contender status. That's the upside we have with Mac if he can keep improving and reach his ceiling. I'd take that in a heartbeat.

 

[jal]

This reminds me of something that ESPN Sports Science pointed out about Brady that many people could never understand. Sports Science did a thing on the velocity of Brady's throws, and they stated that while Brady's arm didn't compete with the top arms they had either in the studio or at combines and pro days, no one threw the ball harder or with more velocity during a game.

I submit that a QB who can read Ds, get set up quickly, can then also throw the ball harder than a QB with a bigger arm simply because his mechanics are right. As bad as Cam Newton looks throwing the ball right now, it would not surprise me if he has a cannon in combine type tests when compared to most QBs, but the guy is never set when he throws, like EVER, he throws off his back foot, diagnoses late, and his balls look like they'll never get there.

We don't know what we have in Mac yet, and we won't know for a couple years. I just hope he sticks with McD for a few years because that will go a long way in making him a great QB.

This is right on. Brady's ability to "hold his mechanics" even in an unclean pocket are uncanny and produced in-game much higher effective velocity than would be expected from a combine-style arm strength measurement.

But I'd add that Brady has evolved the ability to drive the ball even without his feet perfectly under him, which suggests that combine-style measurement would view him more favorably after he was able to work on his body and mechanics. Plenty of examples of that arm strength even from the past couple of years (look at the TD throw to Miller in the GB playoff game - Brady isn't fully set as he's about to get smacked and he doesn't step into the throw, he put that thing 45 yards in the air downfield perfectly with velocity using upper body torque only). Brady still doesn't have a Mahomes/Rodgers/Allen level arm but it's a lot stronger than people suspect. Probably on the level of Tannehill, Jameis, Wilson - below the most elite tier but well above-average for NFL starting QBs.

I don't think Mac can get to that place where Brady is today, as he's starting from a worse place. But he absolutely can improve his functional velocity materially. Drew Brees certainly improved significantly in velocity from when he entered the league and in terms of physical ability that's the target I am hoping Mac can reach.

 

[amfootball]

Mac's upside is realistically Chad Pennington pre-shoulder injury (he was a monster for those not old enough to remember 2002). At the extreme if surrounded by appropriate talent and scheme, his ceiling is probably Drew Brees. I'm quite happy to have Mac - he has the inherent processing speed and accuracy to find that pathway which has produced hugely successful qbs. He won't become a great QB the same way Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers have but that's not the only way to skin a cat.

He's not the same as Brady or Peyton - they were bigger guys and did have bigger arms even if not historically great arms. And while Mac could likely match a Joe Montana in arm strength he doesn't seem to have that dazzling pocket presence of Joe Cool (and Brady) or Joe's ability to make plays on the move.

Imagine Brees on the Pats of 2001-2019: stronger defense and team that is situationally elite, with perhaps less cap / resources given to the offense. Stats would be worse but winning results likely even better than what Brees did with the Saints. Won't be Brady but I could easily see winning a couple of rings over a 15 year period with consistent contender status. That's the upside we have with Mac if he can keep improving and reach his ceiling. I'd take that in a heartbeat.

In terms of the Brees comparison, I feel like Drew never gets enough credit for how mentally smart he was at reading defenses and diagnosing the open receiver pre-snap. He was right up there with Brady and Peyton IMO precisely because he was not the most gifted QB physically. I am not sure if Mac will approach that level. I know he is credited with being a smart guy but Brees' mental capabilities were off the charts.

 

[patsfan13]

This is right on. Brady's ability to "hold his mechanics" even in an unclean pocket are uncanny and produced in-game much higher effective velocity than would be expected from a combine-style arm strength measurement.

But I'd add that Brady has evolved the ability to drive the ball even without his feet perfectly under him, which suggests that combine-style measurement would view him more favorably after he was able to work on his body and mechanics. Plenty of examples of that arm strength even from the past couple of years (look at the TD throw to Miller in the GB playoff game - Brady isn't fully set as he's about to get smacked and he doesn't step into the throw, he put that thing 45 yards in the air downfield perfectly with velocity using upper body torque only). Brady still doesn't have a Mahomes/Rodgers/Allen level arm but it's a lot stronger than people suspect. Probably on the level of Tannehill, Jameis, Wilson - below the most elite tier but well above-average for NFL starting QBs.

I don't think Mac can get to that place where Brady is today, as he's starting from a worse place. But he absolutely can improve his functional velocity materially. Drew Brees certainly improved significantly in velocity from when he entered the league and in terms of physical ability that's the target I am hoping Mac can reach.

It is doubtful that Mac will get anywhere close to where Bready is, however coming into the league Mac was ahead of where Brady was Physically, many younger fans may not appreciate that.

 

[amfootball]

It is doubtful that Mac will get anywhere close to where Bready is, however coming into the league Mac was ahead of where Brady was Physically, many younger fans may not appreciate that.

I don't get this comparison. Brady was the 199th pick and 4th on the Pats depth chart. Many, many, many QBs came into the league ahead of Brady. In other words, not sure this is really something to tout in Mac's favor as any type of indicator of future success.

 

[sb1]

It is doubtful that Mac will get anywhere close to where Bready is, however coming into the league Mac was ahead of where Brady was Physically, many younger fans may not appreciate that.

Brady's arm was very underrated when he came in the league. Mac's arm was exactly as projected, at least this year.

But I'm glad Mac is our guy. And we got him for free and didn't have to trade up. That's a big win for us.

He is NFL ready and no doubt he is coachable and will do what it takes to get even better next year. Trading a first rounder in 2022 for a shot at Fields would have been a disaster that would have set the team back years and had no shot at any other top QB.

 

[zydecochris]

House has a very scientific approach coupled with great understanding of the intangibles that make athletes great. The latter -- what House calls "the hard part" -- Mac already has under his belt, he says. The physical improvement apparently is just a matter of putting the work in. Interesting how he noted a player Mac's age has years to go before maturing physically.

Plus, different players (and humans in general) mature physically at different rates. I've seen some college QBs come in as college freshman and they already are quite physically mature. I'm am mostly familiar with the Alabama QBs, Jalen Hurts looked like a superhero as a college freshman (as a Texas weightlifting champ) and Tua both looked the part and was amazingly gifted QB as a freshman also (it is unfortunate what he has lost to his injuries). The pictures of Mac as a super skinny freshman make him look like he couldn't handle kicker, much less QB. Mac is in better shape now (and evidently toughness isn't a problem for him), but clearly he has years to go before maturing physically. I'm sure he will put in the work.

However, IMHO that is hardly a bad omen, I think we used to have another QB who (despite being a great athlete, especially in baseball, at a young age) also looked like he didn't belong on the football field as late as at the NFL combine. And he turned out OK.

 

[zydecochris]

20+ yards passing stats

2020

Joe Burrow

20.8% comp. pct. (35th/35)
50.8 passer rating (33rd/35)

this season

41.7% comp pct. (14th/37)
99.5 rating (13th/37)

Mac Jones

38.1% comp pct. (21st/37)
72.4 rating (28th/37)





The comp. for Mac Jones is right there. Joe Burrow had average arm strength & lacked a #1 WR. He was arguably the worst deep passer his rookie year. He worked on velocity, the bengals drafted Chase & the rest is history.

Burrow is an inch taller but I’m not sure why Mac is dinged for his athleticism. We’ve seen him make plays on the run & 4.83 forty/7.04 3 cone/32 inch vert are respectable numbers for a QB.

Yep, I chuckle when I see these articles about how Burrows has "made the leap". While there is plenty of truth to that, I have the feeling that having Chase onboard may have a bit to do with that

 

[Thelonious]

Well if he improves his arm strength along with his ELITE ability to make pre snap reads he will indeed be elite. Brady doesn't and never had Allen's or Mahomes abilities. Hopefully we can agree that Brady is Elite.

Yep, he was, no question. I do however think Brady's arm is better thasn Macs, though arm strength is certainly not his calling card. i would not want it lost that I dothink Mac is terrific and I'm glad we have him. I am skeptical, though, that he'll ever find the sort of elite level of oreover, there's no question brady arm strength has steadiltimproved as he worked with House.Mahomes/Allen/Rogers. i hope I'm wrong, and my wife would point out that my being wrong is always a very live possibility, or likelihood.

How is it a historic outlier?

Some of the greatest QBs in the NFL repeatedly show the same skill set that Brady excelled in. I mean, we used to talk about Marino and Montana, who were both greater than Elway. Quick throwers, great at moving around the pocket, accurate, threw with zip because they knew the game. And even though everyone salivated over Elway as being the greatest most skilled QB to ever come out of college, he showed that he couldn't read defenses well, he used to drive the ball into the ground often.

It seems to me the Brady prototype has been the most successful one in NFL history. The only one to ever break that mold is Mahomes. He may truly be the best of the new breed, but we'll have to wait and see ACTII. Or at least post Tyreek (I consider Tyreek the most unusual player I've ever seen in 45 years of watching).

Even Manning was in the Brady mold. Manning did not have an especially strong arm.

Seriously, Brady, Manning, Montana, Marino--makes me wonder if people would say the same about these people given NFL history. Even Brees did not have a strong arm (though unlike the 4 QBs I mentioned above, Brees came in with the ability to run, but in his 30s, Brees stopped running).

I am not projected Mac Jones as the next Brady, Montana, Manning or Brees -- but can someone explain what these QBs had ver Mac in terms of natural ability?

How is it a historic outlier?

Some of the greatest QBs in the NFL repeatedly show the same skill set that Brady excelled in. I mean, we used to talk about Marino and Montana, who were both greater than Elway. Quick throwers, great at moving around the pocket, accurate, threw with zip because they knew the game. And even though everyone salivated over Elway as being the greatest most skilled QB to ever come out of college, he showed that he couldn't read defenses well, he used to drive the ball into the ground often.

It seems to me the Brady prototype has been the most successful one in NFL history. The only one to ever break that mold is Mahomes. He may truly be the best of the new breed, but we'll have to wait and see ACTII. Or at least post Tyreek (I consider Tyreek the most unusual player I've ever seen in 45 years of watching).

Even Manning was in the Brady mold. Manning did not have an especially strong arm.

Seriously, Brady, Manning, Montana, Marino--makes me wonder if people would say the same about these people given NFL history. Even Brees did not have a strong arm (though unlike the 4 QBs I mentioned above, Brees came in with the ability to run, but in his 30s, Brees stopped running).

I am not projected Mac Jones as the next Brady, Montana, Manning or Brees -- but can someone explain what these QBs had ver Mac in terms of natural ability?

Not sure we actually disagree. Brady's arm strength is better than is often appreciated, and it improved over his career (He is a much better deep thrower now than he once was, for example, and this is attributable at least in large degree to arm strength.), but he is not in the same league with the top - what? - five arms ever. And arm strength is not his calling card in any case: that goes to his will and his intelligence and his commitment to work. Mac's arm is not presently as strong as Brady's, and I am doubtful it will ever be. It doesn't matter all that much, given Mac's other virtues, but it is a fact, I think, that he will never be as good at the sort of throws requiring major zip - deepish throws across the field into tight windows, e.g. - as other qb's who have stronger arms, even though I think it likely he will be a better qb overall than many who surpass him in this one regard. My initial point is that Mac is not now nor is ever likely to be on a par - not just re arm strength but overall - with Mahomes, Allen, Rogers, etc.,and I will stand by that even as I hope I am mistaken

 

[moosekill]

He's not the same as Brady or Peyton - they were bigger guys and did have bigger arms even if not historically great arms. And while Mac could likely match a Joe Montana in arm strength he doesn't seem to have that dazzling pocket presence of Joe Cool (and Brady) or Joe's ability to make plays on the move.

Combine numbers. Tom Brady 6'4" 211 pounds. Mac Jones 6'3" 215 pounds. Peyton Mainning 6'5" 230 pounds. Peyton was a bit bigger coming out. Brady and Mac are pretty close. Of course the extra 2" in Peyton is his forehead.

 

[moosekill]

I don't get this comparison. Brady was the 199th pick and 4th on the Pats depth chart. Many, many, many QBs came into the league ahead of Brady. In other words, not sure this is really something to tout in Mac's favor as any type of indicator of future success.

It has been mentioned over and over and over that Tom wasn't very good his rookie year. Mac had a rookie year that was statistically better than Brady's second year, and then Brady became the GOAT. That is why the comparison is being made, not that Mac will be better than or equal to or close to Brady, but rather that Brady wasn't that good his rookie year, and Mac is starting at a higher level. Hopefully Mac will put in the work needed and continue to improve like Tom did, to become an all time great qb.

 

[scott99]

In terms of the Brees comparison, I feel like Drew never gets enough credit for how mentally smart he was at reading defenses and diagnosing the open receiver pre-snap. He was right up there with Brady and Peyton IMO precisely because he was not the most gifted QB physically. I am not sure if Mac will approach that level. I know he is credited with being a smart guy but Brees' mental capabilities were off the charts.

Brees mental capabilities took time to develop, his 3rd and 4th full seasons are when the real Drew Brees started to take shape. He threw 28 td passes and 31 INTs his first 2 full seasons.