OT: New York Approves Location of New Bills Stadium

[upstater1]

You didn’t read the rest of it lol.

$82 is the price of non-club seats.

Of course if you take away the expensive seats and only leave the cheap seats the number would be lower LOL. Not to mention the Bills entire second tier (a large number) is club seats.

Rest of the article…

“2021 season tickets will increase by an overall weighted average of $8.02 per-seat, per-game, bringing the average price per ticket to $101.69.”

When you include club seats the average rises to over $100 per ticket.

Read and weep…



Nope.

You just stopped reading the article before it go to the actual average - not the cheap seat average.



If *everyone* eats outside the stadium (they don’t), then how would the concession lines be so long??



I go every year.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

Oh my god, I didn't average in the club seats!!!!!

I'm sure everyone here is more interested in hearing about the cost of regular seats.

How in the world is this so difficult for you?

 

[upstater1]

You’re wrong.

Not only is there not enough land, but it was recently revealed that the Bills would need to displace 3,000 people just to get their stadium to fit.

Downtown Bills stadium could displace 3,000 - Investigative Post

Report says new stadium in Old First Ward would require more land than previously believed and prove disruptive to the neighborhood.

www.investigativepost.org

The study that's been refuted because it came from the Bills.

Here's the Commodore Perry Projects, which I already referenced in my previous post: Commodore Perry Housing Auth · 386 Perry St, Buffalo, NY 14204

What do you see? What does boarded up windows everywhere tell you? This area is blighted, and sure there may be 1,000s of apartments in these projects, but if anyone believes there are 3,000 people living there because the Buffalo Bills say so, they are gullible.

This area is dying to be linked with Larkinville but it is such a massive site and a blight on the city, no one will develop it. So Larkinville stands on an island by itself cut off from the rest of downtown. I suppose at some point someone might finally tear down the Perry Projects and redevelop the area and displace the 3,000 ghosts would live there, but it's not happening anytime soon unless the money is there.

Anyone who cares to look at my link might roam around this neighborhood that's the proposed downtown site to get a better sense of what I'm talking about. Just know that on the west side of this massive neighborhood there is the Inner Harbor which is well developed + the casino, to the south there's a public park and the river, and to the east there's a place called Larkinville that is populated by restaurants, new breweries, art galleries and most of all the headquarters of a large bank.

 

[Ring 6]

Sigh. Why change the subject? I'm the one saying the state makes it on income tax, but this study shows sales tax for the county doesn't add. So what part of the points made do you disagree with?

It is done on the assumption that people will
just spend all that money elsewhere in the community, which is not certain. Many will travel to wherever the bills go to attend games. Merchandise sales will be taxed elsewhere.
And it ignores the tax value of having a payroll of over 200,000,000 a year to be spent in your community.

 

[Ring 6]

As I said, we weren't taxed at all, 0%, for work in NY when we resided in Michigan. We were under a threshold.

They aren’t under a threshold, another reason your example is irrelevant.

 

[Ring 6]

This is obvious nonsense. To realize that, just see that what you "bring in" here is proportional to the tax rate. You don't have a net gain for the local economy by taxing the local populace.

You recover the cost of building the stadium.
The blatantly obvious benefits of having a team in your community is separate from that.

 

[upstater1]

It is done on the assumption that people will
just spend all that money elsewhere in the community, which is not certain. Many will travel to wherever the bills go to attend games. Merchandise sales will be taxed elsewhere.
And it ignores the tax value of having a payroll of over 200,000,000 a year to be spent in your community.

This is like the 3rd time I'm stating the income tax has already been acknowledged. I've done it 4 different times, and it's the whole reason why we're even discussing state funding versus county funding. Look at my discussions above with the level of income tax raised versus funding especially as it relates to interest and debt over time.

As for the local community, think of it as GDP. The income coming into the community is marginal at best, it is there but it is a pittance in terms of fans traveling from outside the region.

The link I gave you interviewed economists who study this for a living.

 

[upstater1]

They aren’t under a threshold, another reason your example is irrelevant.

???

How are visitors who work in NY one day out of the entire year not under the threshold? The threshold is a great many days.

These people work in NY one day a year.

 

[Ring 6]

???

How are visitors who work in NY one day out of the entire year not under the threshold? The threshold is a great many days.

These people work in NY one day a year.

They pay the taxes, it is well known. Your misunderstanding of tax laws is not a valid argument. They unlike your example are not residents.

 

[Ring 6]

This is like the 3rd time I'm stating the income tax has already been acknowledged. I've done it 4 different times, and it's the whole reason why we're even discussing state funding versus county funding. Look at my discussions above with the level of income tax raised versus funding especially as it relates to interest and debt over time.

As for the local community, think of it as GDP. The income coming into the community is marginal at best, it is there but it is a pittance in terms of fans traveling from outside the region.

The link I gave you interviewed economists who study this for a living.

The income tax is 20,000,000 a year. That will pay for the cost of the stadium over its lifetime.
Im sorry there are flaws in the study you chose to support your position. Many studies are slanted and done with an agenda.
If you consider the revenue generate and income created, spent taxed and infused into the community a pittance then the cost of the stadium would also be a pittance, since the economic benefits of having the team exceed that cost. Scale works both ways, and that’s a lazy argument.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh my god, I didn't average in the club seats!!!!!

I'm sure everyone here is more interested in hearing about the cost of regular seats.

How in the world is this so difficult for you?

The discussion was about the gate, not how much the cheapest seats are. Why can’t you admit you were wrong? The average ticket price is the only number you can use to calculate ticket revenue. What your friend paid is not a better data piece.

 

[Ring 6]

As I said, we weren't taxed at all, 0%, for work in NY when we resided in Michigan. We were under a threshold.

Here is some education for you that shows why your guess from an non comparable anecdotal example is irrelevant.

How Do Taxes Work in the NFL?

NFL players do make a ton of money. But not all of that money stays with the athletes. A portion disappears in the form of taxes.

www.sportscasting.com

 

[patfanken]

To my knowledge, EVERY study that has been done on publicly funded stadia has shown conclusively that that state NEVER gets a full return on their investment. I can't see how it will suddenly happen in Buffalo.

BTW- Given the massive investment in this proposed stadium, who will end up owning it. Will the state/county end up sharing ownership, or will the Pagula's get the money AND the deed?

BTW- When Kraft PRIVATELY built Gillette I thought it would lead to the next generation of Stadium would also be essentially privately funded. But 20 years later, all the new stadiums have been massively funded by state and local funding to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.

Now make no mistake, I WANT the Bills to stay in the Buffalo area. They are an original AFL team and over the last 60 years have EARNED the right to have a franchise....BUT Kraft has shown that it DOESN'T have to be that way financially. He PROVED it. Right down to the FULL repayment of the stat's infrastructure investment through parking a percentage of the parking fees over the years. And EVERY large building project gets infrastructure support from the state when its necessary.

 

[Bill Lee]

The area proposed for the downtown stadium is bigger than the current footprint in Orchard Park. We're talking about many acres of empty industrial park and the abandoned Perry St Projects. The only question about downtown has ever been road access, not space. Because there's more space in the area behind the Seneca Casino all the way down to the river by the park.

I guess people aren't reading the article in the thread starter.

If they would, they'd realize the downtown option is deader than a door knob.

It says:

That 91-page report by the engineering firm AECOM projected a new stadium in Orchard Park would cost $1.35 billion – close to the Bills’ own $1.4 billion estimate. The report also said a city facility would cost “a minimum of approximately $350 million more than a stadium in Orchard Park,” and perhaps in excess of $2.1 billion.

So downtown costs a heck of a lot more.

“We have had conversations and I’ve made it clear to the Buffalo Bills organization that we wanted to accommodate both options and let them see the cost of downtown and Orchard Park,” Hochul said. “But not putting our finger on the scale. And if their desire is Orchard Park, it’s Orchard Park. We’ve never said otherwise.”

And the governor says the state is letting the Bills decide which option they prefer.

The Bills’ preference is to build a 60,000-seat venue built across the street from Highmark Stadium because the land is shovel ready, making construction costs less expensive and more predictable. Building there also quickens the timeline for construction. While the team originally projected moving into a new stadium by 2027, the Orchard Park site may allow the team to move that up a year.

And the Bills prefer the current location over downtown because it starts generating more cash for them sooner rather than later.

“If we get an answer on a stadium by the end of this year and construction doesn’t get delayed, we can be ready for the 2026 season,” Raccuia told The News in late October. Raccuia, who represents team owners Terry and Kim Pegula in negotiations, also noted that building a stadium on the proposed city site, along South Park Avenue on the outskirts of downtown, would take two to three years longer.

They want the extra cash flow 2-3 years earlier. Evicting people and removing existing structures takes a lot of time and various hard to predict things can happen such as unplanned ecological remediation. Orchard Park is shovel ready. Less cost, lest risk, move in sooner: all things the team wants.

In broad terms, remaining in Orchard Park gives the Bills a sense of predictability and assurance that they can build on the business model they have. Team officials have said they have strong feedback from fans who want the stadium to remain in Orchard Park, where parking – and therefore space for tailgating – is plentiful, and where ticket sales have been strong even in previous seasons when the now-winning team has performed poorly.

Fans support the Orchard Park idea, as does the team.

Moving to a new location, conversely, opens up issues, ranging from potentially costly construction snags to the relocation of hundreds of people living in public housing on the proposed city site – and over the long term, the possibility that change in fan experience may adversely impact ticket sales.

Downtown is costlier and riskier.

There's always the chance that the fans end up hating the downtown location and attendance drops, then the county and the team would be screwed.

Seems the main concern is traffic and parking concerns.

Everyone involved seems to be saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Personally I don't think a NFL stadium makes a great "anchor tenant" for redevelopment, and given the extra time and money it'd take, it just isn't going to happen.

 

[Bill Lee]

BTW- Given the massive investment in this proposed stadium, who will end up owning it. Will the state/county end up sharing ownership, or will the Pagula's get the money AND the deed?

TFA says Erie County will be owner and landlord to the Bills -- "Though the bulk of funding will come from the state, the county serves as the landlord of the stadium."

Kraft has shown that it DOESN'T have to be that way financially. He PROVED it. Right down to the FULL repayment of the stat's infrastructure investment through parking a percentage of the parking fees over the years. And EVERY large building project gets infrastructure support from the state when its necessary.

IMO all Kraft showed was he didn't have the leverage to get a deal through the Legislature. He didn't even get the infrastructure deal till he threatened to move to Hartford.

IMO the Mass gov't showed they felt they could do without the Patriots, the NY gov't is showing they feel they cannot do without the Bills.

As above, I think the Pagulas are benefiting from good timing. They are coming off their first AFCE in a very long time and have a promising young QB signed long term. This is giving NYS the support it needs to pass a big spending bill for the stadium. State politics also give the WNY area a feeling they are due for some payback after all the massive projects benefiting ENY and in particular NYC have gone through in recent years.

 

[captain stone]

The study that's been refuted because it came from the Bills.

Here's the Commodore Perry Projects, which I already referenced in my previous post: Commodore Perry Housing Auth · 386 Perry St, Buffalo, NY 14204

What do you see? What does boarded up windows everywhere tell you? This area is blighted, and sure there may be 1,000s of apartments in these projects, but if anyone believes there are 3,000 people living there because the Buffalo Bills say so, they are gullible.

This area is dying to be linked with Larkinville but it is such a massive site and a blight on the city, no one will develop it. So Larkinville stands on an island by itself cut off from the rest of downtown. I suppose at some point someone might finally tear down the Perry Projects and redevelop the area and displace the 3,000 ghosts would live there, but it's not happening anytime soon unless the money is there.

Anyone who cares to look at my link might roam around this neighborhood that's the proposed downtown site to get a better sense of what I'm talking about. Just know that on the west side of this massive neighborhood there is the Inner Harbor which is well developed + the casino, to the south there's a public park and the river, and to the east there's a place called Larkinville that is populated by restaurants, new breweries, art galleries and most of all the headquarters of a large bank.

Would the proposed downtown stadium be near the new downtown minor-league baseball field?

 

[Bill Lee]

Interesting article:

Buffalo Bills News Stadium Proposal: What You Should Know

With the most recent Buffalo Bills stadium proposal, there is a lot to take in. Here is what you should know about the proposal by PSE.

thebuffalofanatics.com

Says the new stadium will hold 60k whereas the old one held 78k. I guess the extra seats don't generate revenue anyway? Yet fewer seats would mean more competition for seats so higher prices. Is there enough money in the BUF area to support a lot more luxury box revenue? Or PSLs? Something will have to give, won't it?

Also says funding will be "public/private partnership" with the public side, mainly NYS but also Erie County doing most of the funding. It'll probably be like Las Vegas where the governments pick up most of the tab yet the Bills need to hit up the NFL for a few hundred million that they will be holding the notes for.

It points out the Pagulas have spent a lot of money on "One Bills Drive" and having the new stadium at Orchard Park preserves that investment.

It addresses the roof issue:

The last thing to cover here is the roof or lack thereof. The proposal has the stadium as open-air with covered seats, similar to the setup for the Miami Dolphins at Hard Rock Stadium. Again this goes against the trend in the NFL, with many teams moving into indoor stadiums. Many people believed that if that stadium were indoors, it could attract events such as the NCAA Basketball Final Four or the NFL Scouting Combine. With an open-air stadium, these ideas are not possible, but it’s tough to say if there would ever happen due to Buffalo’s small market.

This and other articles say the roof will protect 80% of the seats, mostly the cheap seats up in the top of the bowl, so people will come to the game and either have good seats or at least not be so exposed to the weather in the cheap seats. Of course it isn't a factor for the luxury boxes, which is the main reason we see new stadiums being built.

 

[Bill Lee]

NY study backs Buffalo Bills in bid to build new stadium | AP News talks more about the money and the politics.

The current lease expires July of 2023 and the Pagulas are saying they will not renew, the implication being they will relocate if no deal is done.

The current governor is from Buffalo and her term ends next fall, so both her and the team want to get a deal done now so it can be in the budget presented Jan 1. The team knows if she isn't re-elected the next governor isn't likely to be so in to a stadium in Buffalo.

The arm wrestling now is about all the variables: how much the county vs state vs team kick in, what the rents are like, etc.

As for revenues:

The study finds the Bills bring in about $26.6 million in annual tax revenue. Though more expensive, a downtown site would be projected to generate about $53 million in additional tax revenue over a 30-year span.

AECOM could not project how much of those revenues would be lost if the Bills relocated out of state.

“There are significant intangible benefits associated with serving as the home of an NFL franchise that can impact policy decision related to investment in a stadium and surrounding neighborhoods,” the study said.

Kind of hard to fund loans in the $1.4B range whilst the team only brings in $0.3B per year of tax revenue, so the conversation shifts to "intangible benefits".

Some numbers on the roof options:

AECOM projected adding a roof would add close to $300 million in additional costs. If the decision was made to include a design that could one day incorporate a roof, it would cost $109 million more — not including the cost of the eventual roof.

As above, they are saying that BUF isn't likely to hold an event such as a NCAA Final Four that *needs* an enclosed stadium, so they aren't asking for one.

 

[Bill Lee]

Bills submit plan for $1.4 billion, 60,000-seat stadium in Orchard Park talks about the seating options:

The team had considered building a larger stadium at a cost closer to $1.6 billion, but instead opted for the roughly 60,000-seat proposal, the source said, though that figure could end up as high as 62,000 seats. The venue also would have 60 suites.​

​

Given that owners Terry and Kim Pegula would want to maximize revenue from any new stadium, it's not clear what the smaller capacity will mean for fans and the prices they'll pay to attend a game at whatever replaces Highmark.​

​

The source familiar with negotiations said newly built professional sport stadiums have had smaller capacities in recent years, in part because the TV viewing experience at home has gotten so appealing. The Bills in 2019 averaged 68,839 fans per regular season home game, or 95.8% of capacity, ESPN reported.​

It's pretty clear to me what it will mean for fans: prices will go up even though their tax money is being used to finance the whole thing, and the Pegulas are counting on making a windfall from the sixty luxury boxes to carry their costs.

 

[Bill Lee]

Factor in the surplus excise taxes greedy NY state collects on Bills Mafia game day staples:

Alcohol
Cigs
Medicinal Weed
Artery Clogging Meats Stuffed in Casings
Collapsible Tables
Pleasure projectiles

And let's not ignore the robust (high margin) business at local emergency rooms post game.

And all those Kleenex to wipe away the tears after the game.

Not to mention the burden on the school system for all the children conceived by drunken fans in the parking lot and any other relatively private corner in the stadium.

 

[Ring 6]

Bills submit plan for $1.4 billion, 60,000-seat stadium in Orchard Park talks about the seating options:

The team had considered building a larger stadium at a cost closer to $1.6 billion, but instead opted for the roughly 60,000-seat proposal, the source said, though that figure could end up as high as 62,000 seats. The venue also would have 60 suites.​

​

Given that owners Terry and Kim Pegula would want to maximize revenue from any new stadium, it's not clear what the smaller capacity will mean for fans and the prices they'll pay to attend a game at whatever replaces Highmark.​

​

The source familiar with negotiations said newly built professional sport stadiums have had smaller capacities in recent years, in part because the TV viewing experience at home has gotten so appealing. The Bills in 2019 averaged 68,839 fans per regular season home game, or 95.8% of capacity, ESPN reported.​

It's pretty clear to me what it will mean for fans: prices will go up even though their tax money is being used to finance the whole thing, and the Pegulas are counting on making a windfall from the sixty luxury boxes to carry their costs.

It’s not the fans tax money, it’s everyone in New York.
Works out to about $72 per citizen.