Cassius Marsh Released

[captain insano]

He makes a lot of moves, and takes a lot of fliers on players who were mediocre/bad elsewhere. Failures are inherent when that's your approach. The problem around here is that the homers defend almost ever freakin' move, the CL's cry about even the longest of longshots, and the serious analysis that could make up the accurate middle rarely gets done anymore.

Want to see where the Patriots have had some issues of late? We don't even need to get into free agency or trades. Take a look at the first and second rounds post-2010.

First round picks:

2011 - Solder
2012 - Hightower
2012 - Jones
2014 - Easley
2015 - Brown

Second round picks:

2011 - Vereen
2011 - Dowling
2012 - Wilson
2013 - Dobson
2013 - Collins
2014 - JAG
2015 - Richards
2016 - Cyrus Jones

 

[Deus Irae]

Such a difficult thing to compare team to team draft picks overall ...

I'm not going to hunt it down right now (last minute holiday prep going on), but Casserly has a basic breakdown of the round-by-round hit percentages out there. BB's historically been definitely under in round 2 and definitely over in round one.

In the period I listed, though, he's been under in round 2, missing picks in round 1, and he drafted the only true 1st round bust of his tenure (Easley). When you look at the list, I think anyone giving it an honest evaluation would have to acknowledge that it's been a very underwhelming time span for drafting at the top (remembering that some players may still improve).

Solder - disappointing mediocrity with injury issues, still a positive grade, but definitely not a foundation guy
Hightower - Excellent talent, but can't stay healthy, still a positive grade, but not a foundation guy
Jones - Didn't survive his first contract, problem against the run, got to call that neutral at best, IMO
Easley - Bust
Brown - Disappointing until this year, and now injured, still a slight positive grade, but not a foundation guy

Without a definite big hit in round 2 (Jury's still out on JAG for that and, if he is a big hit, it won't be for the Patriots), and no round 2 hits still on the team, and without getting into the whole "but that guy got traded for..." line of questionable arguments, the first and second round draft picks from 2011-2017 are currently yielding only one guy who's playing (Solder), one guy who'll likely play again this season (Brown) and one guy who'll be added to the group next year, post injury (Hightower)

Yes, we'd have to look at the results of the trades (i.e. Collins and Jones/Cooks), and they'd count in a fully fleshed out discussion but, even if you just view it as a baseline, 3 out of 13 from 7 years of rounds 1+2 drafting is not good, especially when you toss in those years without first round picks (13, 16, 17).

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I'm not going to hunt it down right now (last minute holiday prep going on), but Casserly has a basic breakdown of the round-by-round hit percentages out there. BB's historically been definitely under in round 2 and definitely over in round one.

In the period I listed, though, he's been under in round 2, missing picks in round 1, and he drafted the only true 1st round bust of his tenure (Easley). When you look at the list, I think anyone giving it an honest evaluation would have to acknowledge that it's been a very underwhelming time span for drafting at the top (remembering that some players may still improve).

Solder - disappointing mediocrity with injury issues, still a positive grade, but definitely not a foundation guy
Hightower - Excellent talent, but can't stay healthy, still a positive grade, but not a foundation guy
Jones - Didn't survive his first contract, problem against the run, got to call that neutral at best, IMO
Easley - Bust
Brown - Disappointing until this year, and now injured, still a slight positive grade, but not a foundation guy

Without a definite big hit in round 2 (Jury's still out on JAG for that and, if he is a big hit, it won't be for the Patriots), and no round 2 hits still on the team, and without getting into the whole "but that guy got traded for..." line of questionable arguments, the first and second round draft picks from 2011-2017 are currently yielding only one guy who's playing (Solder), one guy who'll likely play again this season (Brown) and one guy who'll be added to the group next year, post injury (Hightower)

Yes, we'd have to look at the results of the trades (i.e. Collins and Jones/Cooks), and they'd count in a fully fleshed out discussion but, even if you just view it as a baseline, 3 out of 13 from 7 years of rounds 1+2 drafting is not good, especially when you toss in those years without first round picks (13, 16, 17).

Good added info. While we'd haggle on a few descriptions of the Solder-Brown you mentioned, I find it a fair assessment that it's been below average for this time snapshot (with the notation that there are some complexities).

Of course next considerations are lower rounds, UDFAs, trades, FAs and how it all came together, how it was constrained by cap. It may also the totality was 'less than satisfactory' for that period, I don't know. Way too much data to find, too complex to formulate. ((come on, forget the holiday prep, more important to dig this info up ))
And I noticed you stayed away from the final comment on BB .

 

[Deus Irae]

As to BB himself, the Patriots are beyond extremely fortunate to have him as HC/GM despite his mistakes (and he certainly makes mistakes). Not sure what the odd agenda is to suggest he's been more a passenger(even a lucky passenger) to this extreme run of success but to each their own.

Just for you (and if I told you about all the weird/mildly bad and/or annoying **** that went down during my day, and why I'm still working on T.D. prep, you'd sill be laughing come turkey time tomorrow):

I think one can look at BB as a passenger in this sense (people will argue against it, but I'm just talking about a reasonable take):

1. Pretty much every elite coach with sustained success has done it with high end or elite QBs (the only real exception is Gibbs). Even all timers like Shula, Landry and Noll noticeably faded without their QB binkies.
   
2. BB's record without Brady reflects the notion that Brady, not BB, is the straw that ultimately stirs the drink.
3. The relative lack of success by other coaching/admin from the Patriots organization once they've moved on reflects the notion that it's the QB, since a fair amount of BB's knowledge should have been imparted to those who've moved on (this position is reinforced by the reality of the levels of success: Atlanta has Ryan, and has gone the furthest, O'Brien was looking a damn sight better when he had Watson looking like a legit QB, etc...). Admittedly, it could just reflect that notion that BB's underlings are coached up much like a lot of the lesser Patriots players get coached up, and fade away once they move on, but that seems less likely.
4. Brady covers for a whole lot of coaching/personnel mistakes and losses.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Just for you (and if I told you about all the weird/mildly bad and/or annoying **** that went down during my day, and why I'm still working on T.D. prep, you'd sill be laughing come turkey time tomorrow):

I think one can look at BB as a passenger in this sense (people will argue against it, but I'm just talking about a reasonable take):

1. Pretty much every elite coach with sustained success has done it with high end or elite QBs (the only real exception is Gibbs). Even all timers like Shula, Landry and Noll noticeably faded without their QB binkies.
   
2. BB's record without Brady reflects the notion that Brady, not BB, is the straw that ultimately stirs the drink.
3. The relative lack of success by other coaching/admin from the Patriots organization once they've moved on reflects the notion that it's the QB, since a fair amount of BB's knowledge should have been imparted to those who've moved on (this position is reinforced by the reality of the levels of success: Atlanta has Ryan, and has gone the furthest, O'Brien was looking a damn sight better when he had Watson looking like a legit QB, etc...). Admittedly, it could just reflect that notion that BB's underlings are coached up much like a lot of the lesser Patriots players get coached up, and fade away once they move on, but that seems less likely.
4. Brady covers for a whole lot of coaching/personnel mistakes and losses.

""if I told you about all the weird/mildly bad and/or annoying **** that went down during my day, and why I'm still working on T.D. prep, you'd sill be laughing come turkey time tomorrow""

As long as it's a good feast when TD dinner time comes, how you got there is just a footnote .

To the question of it the QB singularly makes or breaks the team, no doubt QB is one of those critical couple of spots for sustained success. Sure, you can get away with a Trent Dilfer and still strike success but not long term, not in the salary cap era. Way too much is happening in football (in game and off the field) for a QB to be saddled with a, for example, Jim Caldwell (I'm off the despised opinion that Manning actually was among the few excellent QBs of the era).
I think one could also point to, for example, Bill Parcells. He had varying QBs but he always brought winning to the teams he coached. His coaching was that important to the success.
Another bote: Brady's poise and vision in the beginning was obvious but his numbers were not what the younglings here we would think of Brady today. His FG drive was epic poise but the Rams SB victory was far far bigger than Brady the QB. A bigger presence than existed within the 53.

I'll leave you to your TD prep (be brave, post a pic of the progress, I need the entertainment) by saying we will have to agree to disagree on the BB-TB debate. I'm of the unwaveringly firm opinion (yes just my opinion -- not data based) we needed TB and we needed a BB to have the sustained success that we've had, believing both positions are too critical to sustain winning this long, with both men are deserving of the GOAT titles, and ultimately we struck lightning in a bottle to get both for this many straight years.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'll leave you to your TD prep (be brave, post a pic of the progress, I need the entertainment) by saying we will have to agree to disagree on the BB-TB debate. I'm of the unwaveringly firm opinion (yes just my opinion -- not data based) we needed TB and we needed a BB to have the sustained success that we've had, believing both positions are too critical to sustain winning this long, with both men are deserving of the GOAT titles, and ultimately we struck lightning in a bottle to get both for this many straight years.

The prep itself has been fine, actually. It's been everything around it (Grocery store + huge pile of Coke 12 packs + nothing I did wrong but be unlucky about the time of my arrival at the display = collapsed pile, many open 12 packs, and cans all over the damned place, for example).

As for BB + TB, I don't know that we really disagree. I think that they've fed each other's success, and I think calling BB a passenger is grossly underselling his importance. I'd rank Brady as more important, but I don't consider that a big deal as, when you're ranking, you have to put one above the other. We've seen QBs win after elite coaches have gone (Barry Switzer, Mike Tomlin and George Siefert come immediately to mind), and we've seen QBs like Eli show us what can happen when you shove a horseshoe up a QB's ass for the playoffs (twice!), but we haven't really seen elite coaches being able to replicate their success at second stops, so I just consider it the default and move on from there.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

The prep itself has been fine, actually. It's been everything around it (Grocery store + huge pile of Coke 12 packs + nothing I did wrong but be unlucky about the time of my arrival at the display = collapsed pile, many open 12 packs, and cans all over the damned place, for example).

As for BB + TB, I don't know that we really disagree. I think that they've fed each other's success, and I think calling BB a passenger is grossly underselling his importance. I'd rank Brady as more important, but I don't consider that a big deal as, when you're ranking, you have to put one above the other. We've seen QBs win after elite coaches have gone (Barry Switzer, Mike Tomlin and George Siefert come immediately to mind), and we've seen QBs like Eli show us what can happen when you shove a horseshoe up a QB's ass for the playoffs (twice!), but we haven't really seen elite coaches being able to replicate their success at second stops, so I just consider it the default and move on from there.

Well despite the eruption of Mt Coca Cola it sounds like the TD day will be good feast. Enjoy .....

 

[maineman209]

Alex Okafor

Kony Ealy

Dwight Freeney

Shilique Calhoun (waived by Oakland on cut-down day before he was re-signed to their PS)

Jordan Willis (instead of Derek Shawn Crable 2.0 Rivers)

OKAFOR (Drafted #103 by ARZ in 2013, coming off hip injury)
With Cardinals 2013-2016:
- Missed all but 1 game of rookie season (2013) with torn biceps.
- Missed 3 games in 2014 with thigh/quad injury.
- Missed 3 games mid-season of 2015 with calf injury; IR'd for wk-17 and playoffs with toe injury.
- Demoted to second-tier/ST role for 2016.
Four-year total production:
73 TT .. 13.5 SK .. 1 INT .. 4 PD .. 1 FF .. 2 FR

- Arrested March 9 in Austin for fleeing from the police (Pats traded for Kony Ealy March 10).
- Signed with NOL March 14, 1 yr/$3M:
...... Started 10 gms .. 43 TT .. 4.5 SK .. 3 PD .. 2 FF
- Tore his Achilles in last week's win over WAS and is out for the rest of the season.
-----
CALHOUN (OAK, drafted #75 in 2016):
2016 - 10 gms/0 starts .. 5 TT .. 0.5 SK .. 1 PD .. 170 D-snaps/192 ST snaps
... IR'd (knee) week-11
2017 - waived to PS in cutdowns; promoted to active roster October 14
4 gms/0 starts .. 22 D-snaps/62 ST snaps .. no stats recorded
-----
FREENEY (37 years old)
Signed to 1-year deal by SEA on October 24:
4 gms/0 starts .. 3 TT .. 3 sacks .. 1 PD .. 101 D-snaps
-----
WILLIS was drafted by CIN at #73. The Pats traded their #32 (Cooks), traded their #64 (Ealy), traded the #72 (received from CAR in the Ealy trade) to TEN for the #83 and selected Rivers.

WILLIS .. 234 D-snaps/100 ST snaps
10 gms/1 start .. 17 TT .. 1 SK

Cassius Marsh .. 266 D-snaps/150 ST snaps
9 gms/1 start .. 16 TT .. 1 SK .. 1 FF .. 1 BLK

Deatrich Wise .. 348 D-snaps/25 ST snaps
10 gms/2 starts .. 16 TT .. 3 sk .. 1 PD
-----
EALY (w/Jets) - 333 D-snaps/25 ST snaps
9 gms/3 starts .. 12 TT .. 1 SK .. 1 INT .. 9 PD

 

[maineman209]

And…?

It's merely a size and testing number comp; information/context that hadn't been posted in the thread so far.

No "and" attached. Folks are free to interpret the information any way they like.

 

[maineman209]

We won 11 with cassel but the year before we won 16 with Brady with essentially the same team around them. That's a 5 game difference and we didn't even make the playoffs. This is the argument Brady haters use to downplay his abilities, that because Cassel won 11 games Brady is mainly a system Qb. Cassel isn't trash either, he did well in KC.

It's nobody's fault but their own that Indy and GB didnt and don't have a quality backup.

Take Brady out and most teams would not trade their rosters for ours. Most teams would trade for Bb and Brady in a heartbeat.

The 2008 team was also without the services of their starting RB after three games. With Maroney on IR, the Pats relied on an RBBC primarily comprising 31-year-old Sammy Morris, 32-year-old Faulk, 30-year-old Lamont Jordan, and rookie UDFA BGE. That combo finished the season 7th in ypa, 6th in yards gained and 4th in rushing TDs.

Of the 2008 team's five losses, two were by three points: 15-18 v. Manning's Colts in wk-9 and 31-34 v. the Jets in wk-11. The second loss, to the Jets, was an OT "coin toss" loss, after Cassell had tied the game with 0:01 left in regulation on a 16-yard pass to Moss. After the Jets loss, the Pats won five of their final six games: they got blown out by the Steelers (eventual SB winners), but blew out MIA, OAK and ARZ, and shutout the Bills in wk-17

The 11-5 Pats missed the playoffs because the 11-5 'Fins and the 11-5 Ravens both finished the season with a one-game advantage in the conference record tiebreaker (8-4 v. 7-5). If either had lost their final game, the Pats would've made the playoffs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

A cold streak is putting it nicely. His drafts have been elephant dung lately.

That's not accurate.

 

[DaBruinz]

Alex Okafor

Kony Ealy

Dwight Freeney

Shilique Calhoun (waived by Oakland on cut-down day before he was re-signed to their PS)

Jordan Willis (instead of Derek Shawn Crable 2.0 Rivers)

I love how you mention Kony Ealy, whom the Patriots had in camp, and was a complete bust here despite being given many chances.

Dwight Freeney? Really? He sat at home until the Seahawks were desperate.. Then they cut him after 2 weeks and he was claimed by Detroit..

How do you know that Calhoun or Willis could have performed here? OH. That's right. You don't. Because, as always, you're clueless about the players personality and work ethic and whether or not they would thrive under Belichick.

 

[PatsFan2]

So Marsh got claimed from First to Second to worse. I hope he corrects his football issues and have a decent career.

 

[SuperStang83]

He has zero.. zero special teams tackles. He doesn’t even have an assist. He has not blocked anything or downed a punt either.

Tell me more about his greatness on special teams.

Pretty sure he had a blocked field goal or extra point?

 

[Brady6]

Pretty sure he had a blocked field goal or extra point?

Actually that was Marsh who blocked it against the Falcons.

 

[Brady6]

The 2008 team was also without the services of their starting RB after three games. With Maroney on IR, the Pats relied on an RBBC primarily comprising 31-year-old Sammy Morris, 32-year-old Faulk, 30-year-old Lamont Jordan, and rookie UDFA BGE. That combo finished the season 7th in ypa, 6th in yards gained and 4th in rushing TDs.

Of the 2008 team's five losses, two were by three points: 15-18 v. Manning's Colts in wk-9 and 31-34 v. the Jets in wk-11. The second loss, to the Jets, was an OT "coin toss" loss, after Cassell had tied the game with 0:01 left in regulation on a 16-yard pass to Moss. After the Jets loss, the Pats won five of their final six games: they got blown out by the Steelers (eventual SB winners), but blew out MIA, OAK and ARZ, and shutout the Bills in wk-17

The 11-5 Pats missed the playoffs because the 11-5 'Fins and the 11-5 Ravens both finished the season with a one-game advantage in the conference record tiebreaker (8-4 v. 7-5). If either had lost their final game, the Pats would've made the playoffs.

Matt Cassel was a pro bowler in 2010 and led a Todd Haley coached KC team to a 10-5 record. He was a very good QB until head injuries derailed his career.

The 2007 roster which went 16-0 was primarily in tact in 2008. So with a future pro bowl level QB starting Belichick won 11 games. So it reasonable to say Brady was 5 wins above replacement. Imagine if you removed 5 wins from every season Belichick was a coach?

Belichick is likely the best coach of all time but every super bowl this team has won has come down to a single score that required Brady to lead a game winning or go ahead drive in Q4.

 

[50-yard-line]

We did not win the Brissett trade and anyone who would argue otherwise is a delusional homer and that’s not even debatable.

Don't know yet, IMO. Dorsett was a 1st-rounder (they should have taken Malcom Brown, but thanks, stupid Indy) and had over 500 yards last year - and averages 15ypc since he started. He's got a lot of room to improve, and unlike Brissett, he's actually PLAYING, and on a team that's rolling.

So it's not a loss, either, unless you consider Brissett prettier on the sidelines.

If Brady got hurt this year and Hoyer was available, I'm betting BB would have grabbed him and started him ahead of Brissett. And yeah, I've watched JB in the Colts games, and am cheering for him.

He holds the ball way too long, has a ton of accuracy issues, and has made some horrendous decisions in big situations (look at the Colts 2nd-half stats). I have no idea where he'll go, but he won't be getting there anytime soon.

And Brady won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Matt Cassel was a pro bowler in 2010 and led a Todd Haley coached KC team to a 10-5 record. He was a very good QB until head injuries derailed his career.

The 2007 roster which went 16-0 was primarily in tact in 2008. So with a future pro bowl level QB starting Belichick won 11 games. So it reasonable to say Brady was 5 wins above replacement. Imagine if you removed 5 wins from every season Belichick was a coach?

Belichick is likely the best coach of all time but every super bowl this team has won has come down to a single score that required Brady to lead a game winning or go ahead drive in Q4.

The 08 team was not as good as the 07 team even if it had Brady as QB.

Asante Samuel was not on that team. CB play sucked.

Maroney was IR and was ok in 07

Stallworth was gone.

Rodney was IR

Thomas broke his arm.

Seau was gone

Mayo was good but Bru and Vrabes were a year older.

 

[50-yard-line]

I swear people jump at the chance to drop a deuce on a BB personnel move that isn't one sided in his favor.

Marsh was a fringe roster player which BB saw upside and it didn't work out. For his trouble he lost a 5th and a 7th. Big deal.

Phil Perry is another Felger wanna be twit who thinks he's Ron Wolff

One of which he got for trading Justin Coleman, who would not be on this team - and before anyone argues that: J Jones is playing very well, Rowe, Gilmore, Butler are all better, and Bademosi offers more.

 

[RobertWeathers]

One of which he got for trading Justin Coleman, who would not be on this team - and before anyone argues that: J Jones is playing very well, Rowe, Gilmore, Butler are all better, and Bademosi offers more.

Player for player this is the best secondary since 2003