Dwayne Allen to the moon?

[maineman209]

Reach? For what?

I really don't care about Allen's 2017 salary right now, regardless of the context. It's history. Water under the bridge. There's nothing to be done about it now, by anyone. All that's left is to evaluate his play and contributions going forward. Complaining about Allen not playing up to his paycheck seems like crying over milk that someone else spilled.

if a guy's worth is below his salary

Setting aside the idea that "worth" is in the eye of the beholder, if you want to generalize about "a guy", then sure, what a team is paying "a guy" could always have been spent differently. It might have achieved "better" results, and it might not have. AFAIK, there's never been any way of being absolutely certain in advance, and definitely not over the considerable distance from where I sit to BB's chair.

Clearly, Allen has underperformed your expectations so far. If those expectations were based, even in part, on what BB signed up to pay him for 2017 ... wow! I don't know what to tell you.

I care about the Pats. I also understand that it's not humanly possible for BB to make perfect decisions for the team every time, much less decisions that will always please all "the fans". But, I definitely don't pretend to speak for them, any more than I pretend to be aware of all the constraints, the potential upsides and downsides that BB takes into consideration with each decision. I can't really do much but sit back and enjoy watching how his decisions play out in the here and now.

 

[brdmaverick]

Reach? For what?

I really don't care about Allen's 2017 salary right now, regardless of the context.

For insinuating that because we don't write the checks that we shouldn't care.

If that's your way of thinking, why celebrate when the Patriots win the Super Bowl? Do YOU get a ring? Do YOU get to go on the parade float?

(Ok, you do get a hat, Tshirt, and blu ray)

That's my point. No, it's not my money, but we care about the team, and that is an aspect of it.

I can't really do much but sit back and enjoy watching how his decisions play out in the here and now.

....and discuss all aspects of the team with fellow fans......like team success, player success, specific play calls, specific ref calls. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. And yes, I realize that BB is the best in the business and makes far more right decisions than any other coach/gm in the league, but all of his decisions (good and bad) are fair game.

This forum would be lame if all we ever did was say "let's see how this plays out." No, it's lively forum talking about the good, the bad, and predicting the future. 90% of the predictions will be wrong, but it will still create some good banter.

 

[Angelpats]

Oh boy are you really that stupid ? What is so difficult to understand about it all ?

We didnt sign Allen to any contract. All of that was done by the Colts. We had a need and traded for a veteran player that was known to be a great blocker and had some receiving upside. If the team thinks he is overpaid for the role he turned out to play this year he will either be cut or restructured. But none of this matters right now, once you are past the offseason it makes no difference what you earn.

Some people simply have borderline ******ed expectations based on salaries even though they dont matter. I dont get how people keep watching BB operate for more than 15 years now and still dont understand it..

I know your type. Someone disagrees with you and you call them stupid and ******ed. Have some professionalism. We traded for Allen and in doing so inherited his contract. What he does during the season will goes towards what the team does during the offseason. We all know how BB operates. Amendola has agreed to restructure to stay with the team because he even knows his worth. And quit saying salary doesn't matter because if you didn't know this is the Salary Cap era. You have to get the most production you can from the salaries you give out. I'm done with you. People like you who get defensive and insulting because people disagree with you need a self check.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Reach? For what?

I really don't care about Allen's 2017 salary right now, regardless of the context. It's history. Water under the bridge. There's nothing to be done about it now, by anyone. All that's left is to evaluate his play and contributions going forward. Complaining about Allen not playing up to his paycheck seems like crying over milk that someone else spilled.



Setting aside the idea that "worth" is in the eye of the beholder, if you want to generalize about "a guy", then sure, what a team is paying "a guy" could always have been spent differently. It might have achieved "better" results, and it might not have. AFAIK, there's never been any way of being absolutely certain in advance, and definitely not over the considerable distance from where I sit to BB's chair.

Clearly, Allen has underperformed your expectations so far. If those expectations were based, even in part, on what BB signed up to pay him for 2017 ... wow! I don't know what to tell you.

I care about the Pats. I also understand that it's not humanly possible for BB to make perfect decisions for the team every time, much less decisions that will always please all "the fans". But, I definitely don't pretend to speak for them, any more than I pretend to be aware of all the constraints, the potential upsides and downsides that BB takes into consideration with each decision. I can't really do much but sit back and enjoy watching how his decisions play out in the here and now.

Yep, Allen's salary or any salary is largely irrelevant at this point unless cap room needs to be made to sign a FA or BB wants to cut him (then what are the cap ramifications). Once the season is in full swing (especially post trade deadline) the determination is: how to use the 53 in the best way to win games.

The official 'signing-contract-cost recriminations period' start date for the Patriots is February 5th, 2018 with it in full swing no later than February 6th

 

[maineman209]

I know your type. Someone disagrees with you and you call them stupid and ******ed. Have some professionalism. We traded for Allen and in doing so inherited his contract. What he does during the season will goes towards what the team does during the offseason. We all know how BB operates. Amendola has agreed to restructure to stay with the team because he even knows his worth. And quit saying salary doesn't matter because if you didn't know this is the Salary Cap era. You have to get the most production you can from the salaries you give out. I'm done with you. People like you who get defensive and insulting because people disagree with you need a self check.

There are times during the annual cycle when salaries (contracts) matter a lot. There are other times, like right now, that they're pretty much irrelevant, unless the team is making a roster change.

 

[Angelpats]

There are times during the annual cycle when salaries (contracts) matter a lot. There are other times, like right now, that they're pretty much irrelevant, unless the team is making a roster change.

This offseason was great. We had a lot to spend. Signed, traded, and extended players. I can only imagine what BB could do with no cap. I'm not on this thread to pick any fights, I'm only here to discuss. I just sided with the group that says Allen isn't living up to his salary cap. I've also sided with the group that says Edelman and Brady are underpaid. I don't want anyone to get cut or lose their job. There's still a second half to play and Allen can very well blow us away, but for the first half he underperformed. There's no need for anyone who disagrees with that opinion to call me stupid and ******ed.

 

[luuked]

I know your type. Someone disagrees with you and you call them stupid and ******ed. Have some professionalism. We traded for Allen and in doing so inherited his contract. What he does during the season will goes towards what the team does during the offseason. We all know how BB operates. Amendola has agreed to restructure to stay with the team because he even knows his worth. And quit saying salary doesn't matter because if you didn't know this is the Salary Cap era. You have to get the most production you can from the salaries you give out. I'm done with you. People like you who get defensive and insulting because people disagree with you need a self check.

God you are clueless...

 

[luuked]

There are times during the annual cycle when salaries (contracts) matter a lot. There are other times, like right now, that they're pretty much irrelevant, unless the team is making a roster change.

Bingo.

I honestly dont get whats so difficult to understand about that. And yet people keep bringing up salaries in the wrong context all the time trying to show how clever they are when in reality it just shows they dont fully understand in season team building.

 

[luuked]

I really don't care about Allen's 2017 salary right now, regardless of the context. It's history. Water under the bridge. There's nothing to be done about it now, by anyone. All that's left is to evaluate his play and contributions going forward. Complaining about Allen not playing up to his paycheck seems like crying over milk that someone else spilled.

This right there is literally all there is to say about the entire situation relative to his contract. It doesnt matter right now relative to the role he is playing. This will change once the season is over but until then he will be used in a manner that helps the team the most.. and if this is 10 snaps for specific packages then so be it.. whether his salary is 1m, 5m or 20m...

 

[maineman209]

For insinuating that because we don't write the checks that we shouldn't care.

If that's your way of thinking, why celebrate when the Patriots win the Super Bowl? Do YOU get a ring? Do YOU get to go on the parade float?

(Ok, you do get a hat, Tshirt, and blu ray)

That's my point. No, it's not my money, but we care about the team, and that is an aspect of it.



....and discuss all aspects of the team with fellow fans......like team success, player success, specific play calls, specific ref calls. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. And yes, I realize that BB is the best in the business and makes far more right decisions than any other coach/gm in the league, but all of his decisions (good and bad) are fair game.

This forum would be lame if all we ever did was say "let's see how this plays out." No, it's lively forum talking about the good, the bad, and predicting the future. 90% of the predictions will be wrong, but it will still create some good banter.

So, you're taking it upon yourself to define what it means to "care" about the team, and to imply that I don't have any reason to celebrate if I think salaries are irrelevant at this time of year?

If you think I'm somehow not a true fan because I don't meet your standards of how one must demonstrate how one "cares" about the team, then Ignore me.

Another thing - I rigorously avoid making predictions.

I enjoy raising and discussing possibilities - it could be this, it might be that, it seems likely to me that (something else), but it maybe could go this other way ... I can't be certain either way, so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I particularly enjoy it when someone else raises a possibility that I hadn't considered and adds to the discussion. It seems to me that there may be a few others on this board who may enjoy that, too.

But, if you think that's "lame", then Ignore me.

Frankly, I find all the predictions stated with absolute certainty, and the trading of personal insults over them, juvenile and boring. [NOTE: I'd at least find them amusing if, instead of "You're an idiot." and "Yo mama is thrashy.", posters would exchange Scottish barbs like, "Yer bum's ott the windae, ye feckin' bampot!" and "Awa' n' bile yer heed, ya feckin' roaster!" But, that's probably just me.]

If you need to consider a player's potential or extant value to the Patriots based on how much he's being paid, go for it. I simply don't. I evaluate a player based on what he brings to the team. To me, his salary/cap hit, is a secondary and separate consideration - will he fit under the cap? Are there other team needs and cap considerations to account for right now? That's the limit of its relevance to me. I have no idea why it should be otherwise.

 

[brdmaverick]

So, you're taking it upon yourself to define what it means to "care" about the team, and to imply that I don't have any reason to celebrate if I think salaries are irrelevant at this time of year?

If you think I'm somehow not a true fan because I don't meet your standards of how one must demonstrate how one "cares" about the team, then Ignore me.

Either I sucked at trying to make a point, it was completely misinterpreted, or somewhere in between.

My whole point was that technically you are right, it's NOT my money that I'm paying to Allen. I'm not saying caring about salary or not caring about salary makes you a better or worse fan, but that it is something that fans can care about (even though it shouldn't influence their personal lives). I'm saying in the grand scheme of things the Pats wins and losses aren't technically OUR wins and losses either. Our livlihoods shouldn't change by Pats results, but it is something that fans can care about.

My point was that fans can care. Not that you are a better or worse fan, just that fans in general can care and it shouldn't be easily dismissed as 'it's not your money, why do you care?'.

 

[brdmaverick]

Bingo.

I honestly dont get whats so difficult to understand about that. And yet people keep bringing up salaries in the wrong context all the time trying to show how clever they are when in reality it just shows they dont fully understand in season team building.

What's odd is that I don't think we are saying contradicting statements, I think we are just saying different statements.

After all, why can't these statements both be true?

1.) During the season the salary cap shouldn't matter since the team has already been assembled and I expect no player action to be taken* until the offseason even if a player is underperforming.

*Plus or minus a few fringe player transactions for injuries and such.

2.) Fans can make observations and assessments on the value and success of the offseason pickups. (not making a call to action but instead just merely making assessments).

It seems that people are thinking it has to be one or the other. Why can't it be both?

 

[Tony2046]

Oh boy are you really that stupid ? What is so difficult to understand about it all ?

We didnt sign Allen to any contract. All of that was done by the Colts. We had a need and traded for a veteran player that was known to be a great blocker and had some receiving upside. If the team thinks he is overpaid for the role he turned out to play this year he will either be cut or restructured. But none of this matters right now, once you are past the offseason it makes no difference what you earn.

Some people simply have borderline ******ed expectations based on salaries even though they dont matter. I dont get how people keep watching BB operate for more than 15 years now and still dont understand it..

I don't understand the "stupid" comment.

It wasn't until about a year ago that I understood your and Maineman's point. I understand it now. But although the cap hit is irrelevant at this point in the season it is still a way in which people evaluate a player's value to the team. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that.

For me personally the cap hit is what it took to get the player here. In Allen's case it seemed like a great addition at the time and it still does to me. I do agree that he hasn't contributed as we thought he would in the first half of the season but as we know from our rewatch threads that he has not been a bust rather a hard working TE with good to excellent blocking skills. I honestly or hopefully think that by the season's end we will all see that he was in fact a great signing and worth every penny he got.

Anyways I completely agree that what a player's cap hit is means little at this point in the season and that all that really matters is his contribution which in Allen's case has been increasing week to week.

One last thing. Allen has received a lot of negative posts in this forum over the last few months but it's noteworthy that most if not all were not only happy seeing him contribute in the passing game but were also happy for him as a player which, I think, speaks to how most or all feel about him as a good character guy. That's good to see as well.

 

[NE-VT]

fans in general can care and it shouldn't be easily dismissed as 'it's not your money, why do you care?'.

Fans can make observations and assessments on the value and success of the offseason pickups

I agree it makes sense to care about the cap just as much as it makes sense to care about any other aspect of the team. But I doubt many care about the cap for its own sake; instead, they realize that managing the cap it necessary for achieving long term success. From the perspective of team success, I think worrying about player contracts make sense in two ways:

1. Consider potential cap savings of cutting a player vs. projections of how much value that player might add. Important to this calculation is also the projected value to cost ratio of the next best option, a determination of general cap room, guesses of how the player market might shift going forward, etc. As I mentioned before, the sunk cost of Allen's dead cap is irrelevant to all of this. You indicated that you agree with me on this part, but I thought it was worth repeating to compare it to the second:

2. You might worry about current dead cap if you think your GM is systematically mismanaging the cap. Lets suppose that Allen is in fact a bad value for this year (something that I still think is an open question). I would view this as BB losing out on a good bet. No one has a crystal ball, personnel decisions are made without knowing how a player will turn out. Personally, there is not a GM in football I trust more than BB. I enjoy analyzing the Patriots' decisions by trying to understand moves in the context of the principles helped maintain the Patriots dynasty. When I find a move that is questionable, I try to make sense of it in this context.

Yet, one could take the much different approach to analyzing Patriots decisions. You might think that Allen was a bad value because BB made a "bad bet". @Biffins told me before that he was against the Allen move from the beginning and would have preferred that we re-signed Bennett (@Angelpats might also share this view, or he might have simply been disappointed with how Allen played). I believe @captain stone has mentioned that he thinks BB might spend too much cap-room or roster spots on players with special teams upside rather than choosing the best possible back-ups. These sort of questioning of the Patriots can apply outside of GM decisions. I have seen people suggest that our offensive system is too complicated, which hurts our ability to find new offensive talent.

-----

Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with the second type of questions. In fact, it can be quite fun to consider how some team like the Jets has been systematically botching GM decisions. I also don't mind when people do it for BB; it is interesting to read and think about. All of that said, I can't think of a FO that is making consistently better bets than the Patriots. I think it would be silly to engage in the second type of questioning to the point where we start putting up "fire BB" billboards. The situation for other fans is quite different. For us, "trust in BB" actually makes sense.

 

[Angelpats]

I agree it makes sense to care about the cap just as much as it makes sense to care about any other aspect of the team. But I doubt many care about the cap for its own sake; instead, they realize that managing the cap it necessary for achieving long term success. From the perspective of team success, I think worrying about player contracts make sense in two ways:

1. Consider potential cap savings of cutting a player vs. projections of how much value that player might add. Important to this calculation is also the projected value to cost ratio of the next best option, a determination of general cap room, guesses of how the player market might shift going forward, etc. As I mentioned before, the sunk cost of Allen's dead cap is irrelevant to all of this. You indicated that you agree with me on this part, but I thought it was worth repeating to compare it to the second:

2. You might worry about current dead cap if you think your GM is systematically mismanaging the cap. Lets suppose that Allen is in fact a bad value for this year (something that I still think is an open question). I would view this as BB losing out on a good bet. No one has a crystal ball, personnel decisions are made without knowing how a player will turn out. Personally, there is not a GM in football I trust more than BB. I enjoy analyzing the Patriots' decisions by trying to moves in the context of the principles helped maintain the Patriots dynasty. When I find a move that is questionable, I try to make sense of it in this context.

Yet, one could take the much different approach to analyzing Patriots decisions. You might think that Allen was a bad value because BB made a "bad bet". @Biffins told me before that he was against the Allen move from the beginning and would have preferred that we resigned Bennett (@Angelpats might also share this view, or he might have simply been disappointed with how Allen played). I believe @captain stone has mentioned that he thinks BB might spend too much cap-room or roster spots on players with special teams upside rather than choosing the best possible back-ups. These sort of questioning of the Patriots can apply outside of GM decisions. I have seen people suggest that our offensive system is too complicated, which hurts our ability to find new offensive talent.

-----

Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with the second type of questions. In fact, it can be quite fun to consider how some team like the Jets has been systematically botching GM decisions. I also don't mind when people do it for BB; it is interesting to read and think about. All of that said, I can't think of a FO that is making consistently better bets than the Patriots. I think it would be silly to engage in the second type of questioning to the point where we start putting up "fire BB" billboards. The situation for other fans is quite different. For us, "trust in BB" actually makes sense.

Good post. Very Sensible. Everyone thinks and cares about the team in their own way. That's being a fan.

 

[Joey007]

Are we sending Dwayne Allen to the moon or not?

 

[Soliel]

Woulda voted Ray Lewis killed a guy. Should be added to the options

 

[luuked]

I agree it makes sense to care about the cap just as much as it makes sense to care about any other aspect of the team. But I doubt many care about the cap for its own sake; instead, they realize that managing the cap it necessary for achieving long term success.

The problem is that some people (see @Angelpats for a perfect example) dont understand how to approach the salary cap in a sensible way. It is a tool to assemble a team and essentially only matters in the offseason when you are trying to do that. You can write multiple books on how BB and Caserio brilliantly navigate the organization to be in great shape and very flexible almost every year but once the players are here it doesnt matter what their salary is relative to their roles on the team.

And whining that a player has to do more because he is getting a lot of money is just stupid and a recipe for disaster. You have to put players into positions to succeed according to their ability and more importantly consistency. If you have a 5m TE that blocks relatively well but for whatever reason doesnt become a reliable option in the passing game then this is how you use him and then reevaluate in the offseason what to do. Asking him to do more than he seems to be able just because of a contract is what losers do.

Also, as usual there is a difference between team expectations and the fantasy-era lazy fan projections on what players need to be able to do. To me it was somewhat apparent that Allen was acquired because of how good of a blocker he is with the upside in the passing game. He was never meant to be a 1:1 replacement for Bennett and anyone who thought he would was setting himself up for disappointment from day one. Why is that ? Because a) we seemed to pivot our approach on offense to include more deep routes where an additional player that can help the OL is vital and b) because our running game in the last few years was less reliable than it should have been. In fact our short passing game was the running game on many levels.

Now would his upside in the passing game be worth he money ? Who knows but because his contract allows him to be cut in the offseason without any dead money (or retained at a pretty affordable 5m) there was not much cap related risk in the entire move. What wreaks your cap is when contracts like eg. Gilmore would not work out because you have no easy out.

Finally, I sometimes get the feeling that some posters still look at the cap from the perspective of 7-10 years ago and dont account for how much it increased since then. Compared with 2007 we now have almost 50% more space to fit players. If you account for that change then Allens 4.9m contract turns into what a 3.3m contract back then was. .

 

[TommyD4207]

Finally, I sometimes get the feeling that some posters still look at the cap from the perspective of 7-10 years ago and dont account for how much it increased since then. Compared with 2007 we now have almost 50% more space to fit players. If you account for that change then Allens 4.9m contract turns into what a 3.3m contract back then was. .

Those posters won't look at it that way, because they don't go all that in-depth with the thought process.

This is the same group of people who expects everyone to come play here for the vet minimum, simply because they would get to wear the flying Elvis on their helmet - long-term players should take discounts to stay - and anyone who makes more than that, and isn't an immediate Hall of Famer, is a bum.

Nothing ever satisfies these people - every game could be 56-0 and it wouldn't be enough. It's the hawt taek culture, as opposed to, you know, actually watching football games, realizing that wins are a good thing that most teams don't get to experience nearly as much as we are fortunate enough to.

The Patriots didn't sign Allen to that contract, the Colts did. He was brought in to be a TE2, and he's done that job just fine. His teammates and coaches don't seem to have a problem with him. But he isn't on pace for 120 catches and 2000 yards, so he's a bum. Hawt taeks.

 

[maineman209]

I agree it makes sense to care about the cap just as much as it makes sense to care about any other aspect of the team. But I doubt many care about the cap for its own sake; instead, they realize that managing the cap it necessary for achieving long term success. From the perspective of team success, I think worrying about player contracts make sense in two ways:

1. Consider potential cap savings of cutting a player vs. projections of how much value that player might add. Important to this calculation is also the projected value to cost ratio of the next best option, a determination of general cap room, guesses of how the player market might shift going forward, etc. As I mentioned before, the sunk cost of Allen's dead cap is irrelevant to all of this. You indicated that you agree with me on this part, but I thought it was worth repeating to compare it to the second:

2. You might worry about current dead cap if you think your GM is systematically mismanaging the cap. Lets suppose that Allen is in fact a bad value for this year (something that I still think is an open question). I would view this as BB losing out on a good bet. No one has a crystal ball, personnel decisions are made without knowing how a player will turn out. Personally, there is not a GM in football I trust more than BB. I enjoy analyzing the Patriots' decisions by trying to understand moves in the context of the principles helped maintain the Patriots dynasty. When I find a move that is questionable, I try to make sense of it in this context.

Yet, one could take the much different approach to analyzing Patriots decisions. You might think that Allen was a bad value because BB made a "bad bet". @Biffins told me before that he was against the Allen move from the beginning and would have preferred that we re-signed Bennett (@Angelpats might also share this view, or he might have simply been disappointed with how Allen played). I believe @captain stone has mentioned that he thinks BB might spend too much cap-room or roster spots on players with special teams upside rather than choosing the best possible back-ups. These sort of questioning of the Patriots can apply outside of GM decisions. I have seen people suggest that our offensive system is too complicated, which hurts our ability to find new offensive talent.

-----

Now, I don't think there is anything wrong with the second type of questions. In fact, it can be quite fun to consider how some team like the Jets has been systematically botching GM decisions. I also don't mind when people do it for BB; it is interesting to read and think about. All of that said, I can't think of a FO that is making consistently better bets than the Patriots. I think it would be silly to engage in the second type of questioning to the point where we start putting up "fire BB" billboards. The situation for other fans is quite different. For us, "trust in BB" actually makes sense.

I'm actually not an "IBWT" guy.

For me, BB's extended run of success in building and managing effective rosters as HC/GM in New England is an anomaly that's worth studying. I have very little opportunity for acquiring direct knowledge about how he reaches roster decisions since I'm not "in the room". So, I'm mostly left with observing his actions over time from the outside, and then systematically attempting to extrapolate the missing information between those data points in order to develop hypotheses about how he perceives things and about how he weighs various considerations within the "big-picture" context of the moment-of-decision.

And, it's not about my personal hypotheses being "right" or "wrong"; it's simply about learning, about attempting to understand his processes. After nearly two decades of this study, one conclusion I've come to is that MBA programs and service academy officer training programs could benefit greatly from studying BB's processes.

Anyway, I'm guessing that much of this sounds oddly dispassionate, remote, academic ... whatever ... to a lot of "fans", but - above and beyond enjoying the multiple, simultaneous rochambeau games within each play, and the chess match within each game/season as a whole - this is the "fun part" for me . It is what it is, to coin a phrase.