So Michael Sam Is Gay, Who Cares? Can He Rush The QB?

[Uncle Meat]

Just came back into this thread for the first time since last week...

Me too.

Apparently, Michael Sams is STILL gay.

 

[Kontradiction]

Me too.

Apparently, Michael Sams is STILL gay.

This is a new revelation of this saga. I knew Michael Sam was gay, but now Michael Sams is too? How are they handling this news in Buffalo? Did they revive Ralph Wilson long enough to tell him?

 

[Mountain_Commando]

NEPAT160 has every right to his own opinion and belief and to express them in a non-imposing way. However, he has no right to tell another person that their way of life is wrong.

Agreed. Getting back to the uber-personal 'gay son' example, in my view, NEPAT16N0 (or whatever his confusing handle is) saying "son, I'm personally not comfortable with your sexuality because I just can't wrap my head around it, but I won't hold it against you." is OK...but saying "son, I love you but what you're doing is unnatural/immoral" is wrong. I believe our discussion thus ends.

 

[Mountain_Commando]

So if I am anti-African American or AntiAsian, and speak those beliefs without hesitation then anyone who objects would be intolerant?
What if I was sexist and went around criticizing women?

I think you are mixing up the distinction between attacking what someone is, and not accepting someone acting in a hurtful manner toward someone just because of what they are.

If I walk down that street throwing racial epiteths at everyone I meet, and you walk behind me telling me I am wrong and should stop, do you really find those equal behaviors?

I will put it another way. Calling a gay person immoral is just as wrong as saying a black person isn't smart enough to get a real job.
You cannot tell me you would defend the person who spews the opinion that black people are stupid, should not be allowed in college, and should never get a job over the white person who is genetically more qualified.
Would you seriously be calling the person who speaks out against that person intolerant?

Saying you're against african-american people (as in the whole race) is wrong, because you're saying you're against the greatest portion of their identity as a person. Same for asian-americans, women, etc.

Saying you're against homosexuals (as in the entire batch of people) is wrong, because once again you're saying you're against a large portion of their identity as a person, something which they did not choose and cannot change. Similarly, saying you're against homosexuality because it's wrong/immoral for religious reasons is illogical (disclaimer: if I offended religious people with that statement, I really don't care. I will not debate this, so no need to try. feel free to call me names).

But saying openly that concept of homosexuality makes you uncomfortable (whatever your reasons may be), however you'd still treat gays with respect as you would any other person and not discriminate overtly or innately, is not wrong. And one should be able to hold that position without being criticized for it, imo. If I say for example that I find it bizarre some people say, write with their left hand...I should be able to say that without inviting backlash AS LONG AS I'm not telling left handed people that they're somehow defective or treating them with any less respect than any other person.

Now, I'll be fair and agree that many people that are so strongly anti-homosexual, that they let their aversion manifest in hateful, discriminatory, and sometimes violent ways. That is wrong any which way you fold it, that is bigotry, and that deserves intolerance. Disagreement and biases however, SHOULD be tolerated as long as the person's actions don't betray bigot feelings. If I tell my gay friend in a moment of candor, "I'm straight so obviously I don't get your 'thing', but I won't ever hold it against you" and s/he then ostracises me for it, then that's also intolerance.

 

[PP2]

This is a new revelation of this saga. I knew Michael Sam was gay, but now Michael Sams is too? How are they handling this news in Buffalo? Did they revive Ralph Wilson long enough to tell him?

If they revived Ralph, I believe he'd say "Son, I love you but what you're doing is unnatural."

 

[PP2]

Agreed. Getting back to the uber-personal 'gay son' example, in my view, NEPAT16N0 (or whatever his confusing handle is) saying "son, I'm personally not comfortable with your sexuality because I just can't wrap my head around it, but I won't hold it against you." is OK...but saying "son, I love you but what you're doing is unnatural/immoral" is wrong. I believe our discussion thus ends.

Correct, in some ways.

Although where you have him say "I just can't wrap my head around it," I would say "I have no right to judge what is natural and not natural to you."

Also I would never say "I'm personally not comfortable with your sexuality" because that is insulting.

 

[Ring 6]

Saying you're against african-american people (as in the whole race) is wrong, because you're saying you're against the greatest portion of their identity as a person. Same for asian-americans, women, etc.

Saying you're against homosexuals (as in the entire batch of people) is wrong, because once again you're saying you're against a large portion of their identity as a person, something which they did not choose and cannot change. Similarly, saying you're against homosexuality because it's wrong/immoral for religious reasons is illogical (disclaimer: if I offended religious people with that statement, I really don't care. I will not debate this, so no need to try. feel free to call me names).

But saying openly that concept of homosexuality makes you uncomfortable (whatever your reasons may be), however you'd still treat gays with respect as you would any other person and not discriminate overtly or innately, is not wrong. And one should be able to hold that position without being criticized for it, imo. If I say for example that I find it bizarre some people say, write with their left hand...I should be able to say that without inviting backlash AS LONG AS I'm not telling left handed people that they're somehow defective or treating them with any less respect than any other person.

Calling their sexual identity immoral IS calling them defective and disrespecting them.
Sexual identity is a lot closer to race than it is to being lefthanded.
Telling someone its weird they are lefthanded is not in the same stratoshpere as telling them their lifestyle is immoral.

Now, I'll be fair and agree that many people that are so strongly anti-homosexual, that they let their aversion manifest in hateful, discriminatory, and sometimes violent ways. That is wrong any which way you fold it, that is bigotry, and that deserves intolerance. Disagreement and biases however, SHOULD be tolerated as long as the person's actions don't betray bigot feelings. If I tell my gay friend in a moment of candor, "I'm straight so obviously I don't get your 'thing', but I won't ever hold it against you" and s/he then ostracises me for it, then that's also intolerance.

Come on. You know that is a terrible example.
Its like saying racist feelings are OK if I tell my black friend that his lips look funny to me, and he doesn't like it, making HIM intolerant.

 

[Kontradiction]

If they revived Ralph, I believe he'd say "Son, I love you but what you're doing is unnatural."

Unless he thought such feelings were normal.

Please people, don't send me any more hate PMs. It was a joke. With that being stated, thread ignore... active!

 

[primetime]

But saying openly that concept of homosexuality makes you uncomfortable (whatever your reasons may be), however you'd still treat gays with respect as you would any other person and not discriminate overtly or innately, is not wrong. And one should be able to hold that position without being criticized for it, imo. If I say for example that I find it bizarre some people say, write with their left hand...I should be able to say that without inviting backlash AS LONG AS I'm not telling left handed people that they're somehow defective or treating them with any less respect than any other person.

Now, I'll be fair and agree that many people that are so strongly anti-homosexual, that they let their aversion manifest in hateful, discriminatory, and sometimes violent ways. That is wrong any which way you fold it, that is bigotry, and that deserves intolerance. Disagreement and biases however, SHOULD be tolerated as long as the person's actions don't betray bigot feelings. If I tell my gay friend in a moment of candor, "I'm straight so obviously I don't get your 'thing', but I won't ever hold it against you" and s/he then ostracises me for it, then that's also intolerance.

I think you make an interesting point but aren't taking it far enough. The key is that, if something like this makes you uncomfortable or you have a learned, subconscious reaction to something that you know is wrong, you have to acknowledge that it's your problem and not the gay (or transsexual, or black, or whatever) person's problem and that you want to understand and change your views. Simply stating that it makes you uncomfortable and leaving it at that is bigotry.

I work in the progressive and social justice field but I will state somewhat embarrassingly that trans people do make me slightly uncomfortable and I don't "get" it, but I recognize that this is my problem and not theirs - I have to overcome my learned reactions to people who are just being who they are and want to be.

 

[Ring 6]

I think you make an interesting point but aren't taking it far enough. The key is that, if something like this makes you uncomfortable or you have a learned, subconscious reaction to something that you know is wrong, you have to acknowledge that it's your problem and not the gay (or transsexual, or black, or whatever) person's problem and that you want to understand and change your views. Simply stating that it makes you uncomfortable and leaving it at that is bigotry.

I work in the progressive and social justice field but I will state somewhat embarrassingly that trans people do make me slightly uncomfortable and I don't "get" it, but I recognize that this is my problem and not theirs - I have to overcome my learned reactions to people who are just being who they are and want to be.

What I really applaud about your attitude is that you are saying what is right for that person is what they feel is right, not what you do.

 

[PP2]

What I really applaud about your attitude is that you are saying what is right for that person is what they feel is right, not what you do.

And that is the opposite of what a bigot would do.

 

[Ring 6]

And that is the opposite of what a bigot would do.

I would agree.
Not so sure where identifying bigotted behavior became considered intolerant.

 

[mb6592]

So if I am anti-African American or AntiAsian, and speak those beliefs without hesitation then anyone who objects would be intolerant?
What if I was sexist and went around criticizing women?

I think you are mixing up the distinction between attacking what someone is, and not accepting someone acting in a hurtful manner toward someone just because of what they are.

If I walk down that street throwing racial epiteths at everyone I meet, and you walk behind me telling me I am wrong and should stop, do you really find those equal behaviors?

I will put it another way. Calling a gay person immoral is just as wrong as saying a black person isn't smart enough to get a real job.
You cannot tell me you would defend the person who spews the opinion that black people are stupid, should not be allowed in college, and should never get a job over the white person who is genetically more qualified.
Would you seriously be calling the person who speaks out against that person intolerant?

Anti Gay = Anti African American. I agree (thank God, I mean, thank my lucky stars) that sexuality is not much more complex than skin color. You are so right, but then you already knew that.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Anti Gay = Anti African American. I agree (thank God, I mean, thank my lucky stars) that sexuality is not much complex than skin color. You are so right, but then you already knew that.

Oh the spectrum is out there, this might be a case where a lack of understanding by the majority might actually help the situation.

 

[Ring 6]

Anti Gay = Anti African American. I agree (thank God, I mean, thank my lucky stars) that sexuality is not much complex than skin color. You are so right, but then you already knew that.

I''m not sure what point you were making. Complexity of the means in which you are different would appear irrelevant to whether the mistreatment is acceptable.

 

[primetime]

And that is the opposite of what a bigot would do.

Absolutely. There's no one on this planet who can say they've never thought or even uttered something that would be considered racist, sexist, homophobic, or even hateful. The key is to recognize this and understand why it's wrong and then to fight against it, as opposed to trying to justify it.

 

[condon84]

I think you make an interesting point but aren't taking it far enough. The key is that, if something like this makes you uncomfortable or you have a learned, subconscious reaction to something that you know is wrong, you have to acknowledge that it's your problem and not the gay (or transsexual, or black, or whatever) person's problem and that you want to understand and change your views. Simply stating that it makes you uncomfortable and leaving it at that is bigotry.

I work in the progressive and social justice field but I will state somewhat embarrassingly that trans people do make me slightly uncomfortable and I don't "get" it, but I recognize that this is my problem and not theirs - I have to overcome my learned reactions to people who are just being who they are and want to be.

Do you feel that it is wrong that you don't "get" it about transsexuals?

 

[primetime]

Do you feel that it is wrong that you don't "get" it about transsexuals?

I don't "get" how someone can be as obtuse as you but I know that's my problem, and I will work to accept that you are being just what you want and were born to be.

 

[condon84]

I don't "get" how someone can be as obtuse as you but I know that's my problem, and I will work to accept that you are being just what you want and were born to be.

?

I'm just asking why you feel it's "wrong" or why it's your problem that you feel that way about transsexuals. If you're not disrespectful and shove your opinions down their throat, why is it a problem that you have that opinion, especially if you keep that opinion to yourself?

 

[Boogs]

?

I'm just asking why you feel it's "wrong" or why it's your problem that you feel that way about transsexuals. If you're not disrespectful and shove your opinions down their throat, why is it a problem that you have that opinion, especially if you keep that opinion to yourself?

Because subconsciously primetime knows these transexual individuals have some serious mental problems. And I do not mean that in a disrespectful way. These people need serious help to be the gender they were born to be. But they won't get help because it's not politically correct to help them be what they were born physically. It's pc to tell them be whoever you feel like being on the inside. Developmentally some serious problems happened to these people and it's sad.