Camp Questions....and perhaps even...

[livinginthe past]

Great post patfanken, as usual!

Its nice to read a Patriots fan who has sense of guarded optimism, rather than those who can't pay the team a compliment without a glass-half-full attitude.

I also believe that the depth in this teams is stunning this year - so many options - and just because Bryant didn't work out last year it doesn't mean that bears any relation to this years crop.

Some expect all-pro production across the board - the ridiculous criticism of the O-line on the back of one poor game at the Superbowl (where the co-ordinators have to take some heat for sticking stubbornly to the game plan in a Martz-esque fashion).

This is an O-line that made some games in 2007 look ridiculously unfair with the amount of time they gave Brady to throw out of formations when the opposition knew they would pass.

I have a great deal of optimism regarding this years team - I think we'll find a little more balance with the offensive playcalling.

The LBers just have to be 'okay' for this team to be a serious player in the post season.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Well, I don't want to come over all negative, but I do get the feeling that the first season for each of our co-ordinators has been less good than what followed. Mangini's single season as DC was not great, although he is, I believe, an excellent coach, and I was more impressed by McDaniels last season than the season before (not, of course, that the offense wasn't much better that season!). I don't have an opinion on Dean Pees, but it's clear that the defense, for whatever reason, hasn't matched the heights of its days under Romeo.

So, yes, I agree that Belichick sure can pick 'em -- but I'm still concerned that they need to get experience in the job.

2005 - I can't think what was different that season besides the DC? :confused2:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Until Brady proves that he's back physically and mentally, there's no way the Pats go with a depth chart of him, O'Connell, and Gutz/(Edelman) IMO. And even if/when Brady is back close to 100%, I really doubt BB would be entirely comfortable with O'Connell as his backup at this point--2nd year player, totally unproven, with what, zero NFL snaps at this point?

Deja-vu to last summer: the Pats will be looking the bring in a vet backup. :ugh:

 

[APatrioticVirginian]

Hey Ken is there a Cliffs note version of this post?

 

[Frezo]

After watching Cassel in pre-season last year, I wonder how useful it will be to see O'Connell in the same situation. He'll be getting little work with Moss and Welker and will probably be limited with Galloway too. The offense will be vanilla. I'll hope for some reg season blow outs where he can get some 4th quarter work.

 

[jmt57]

Hey Ken is there a Cliffs note version of this post?

Offensive Line: Very good and perhaps underrated due to injuries at the start of 2008, with solid backups in place; also looks to be in very good shape for future years.

Running backs: Can the over-thirty guys still be productive?

Quarterback: O'Connell may be better than Cassel.

Defensive Line: Will the Pats use a 4-3 at times this year to take advantage of the talent on the DL?

Linebacker: Will Thomas be used to pass rush more often this year, or will he be counted on to drop back in coverage? And of course, who will be the other OLB?

Defensive Backs: Deepest and most talented secondary in several years, with added size and strength also.

Special teams: Have not been as good the last couple of years as they used to be but with a new coach are expected to improve.



My name's not Cliff and there's no yellow cover, but was that okay for the short-attention-spanners?

 

[APatrioticVirginian]

Offensive Line: Very good and perhaps underrated due to injuries at the start of 2008, with solid backups in place; also looks to be in very good shape for future years.

Running backs: Can the over-thirty guys still be productive?

Quarterback: O'Connell may be better than Cassel.

Defensive Line: Will the Pats use a 4-3 at times this year to take advantage of the talent on the DL?

Linebacker: Will Thomas be used to pass rush more often this year, or will he be counted on to drop back in coverage? And of course, who will be the other OLB?

Defensive Backs: Deepest and most talented secondary in several years, with added size and strength also.

Special teams: Have not been as good the last couple of years as they used to be but with a new coach are expected to improve.



My name's not Cliff and there's no yellow cover, but was that okay for the short-attention-spanners?

Yes, that was very...Hey look a squirrel!

 

[Mike the Brit]

2005 - I can't think what was different that season besides the DC? :confused2:

It's always a pleasure to be schooled by your gentle irony ...

Yes, it's very difficult to assess co-ordinators, even for those who know as much about the technical side of the game as you and Ken. At the least, though, we can say that the DC signed off on Duane "Oops, I guess I'm lost, let me get my map out" Starks and Monty "Ole! There goes the bull" Beisel as his starters.

At my modest level of understanding, one way of telling that a co-ordinator is really doing his job is when I look at the game and get the feeling that the other team is caught off-balance and fails to adapt (or when your team adapts quickly and effectively to something that initially surprises them.)

I felt that we saw that a lot in the offense last season -- for instance, the imaginative ways they found to use of Welker and Faulk to make yards after the catch or the whole game against the Broncos, where, despite having injuries to their backs, the Patriots unexpectedly went run-oriented and just blew them away. Those were sweet things to see and J McD should get a lot of credit. On the other hand, the failure to adapt to a stunting, pass rushing defense in the Game That Must Not Be Named the previous season should also go on the OC (just as the failure to adapt against Miami's Wildcat should be chalked up to the DC).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

It's always a pleasure to be schooled by your gentle irony ...

Yes, it's very difficult to assess co-ordinators, even for those who know as much about the technical side of the game as you and Ken. At the least, though, we can say that the DC signed off on Duane "Oops, I guess I'm lost, let me get my map out" Starks and Monty "Ole! There goes the bull" Beisel as his starters.

At my modest level of understanding, one way of telling that a co-ordinator is really doing his job is when I look at the game and get the feeling that the other team is caught off-balance and fails to adapt (or when your team adapts quickly and effectively to something that initially surprises them.)

I felt that we saw that a lot in the offense last season -- for instance, the imaginative ways they found to use of Welker and Faulk to make yards after the catch or the whole game against the Broncos, where, despite having injuries to their backs, the Patriots unexpectedly went run-oriented and just blew them away. Those were sweet things to see and J McD should get a lot of credit. On the other hand, the failure to adapt to a stunting, pass rushing defense in the Game That Must Not Be Named the previous season should also go on the OC (just as the failure to adapt against Miami's Wildcat should be chalked up to the DC).

Yet, you also play the cards dealt you. 2005 began with a huge turnover at ILB playing behind a second year NT who didn't put it together until after mid-season. The DC undoubtedly had input on the Starks choice, but the buck started with the Pro Scouting department and ended with the guy at the top - the DC gets a pass on that one, and gets credit for bringing the rookie CB along to start at mid-season. When you check the IR list and see four CBs and two Safeties, remember Bruschi coming back mid-season and Vrabel playing inside, Artrell Hawkins moving to SS to stabilize the secondary when Eugene Wilson proved unable to fill the leadership void, and despite not having the modern high-flying offense to carry them, that team got to the divisional round before some questionable calls and fluke plays by veterans combined for what fans consider the first postseason meltdown (the example of Willie pushing Izzo on the sidelines - and he was the one gone the next year)...you have to say Mangini was more than competitive as a rookie DC.

You can argue individual games where McDaniels might not have adjusted his offense quickly enough to secure a victory, but the only season where he was either OC or OC-in-training that NE failed to make the playoffs was considered a resounding success by NFL decision makers. That one particular game had some lucky bounces, and individual errors and misfortunes, assist in the final result. My only real criticism was not eating more clock on the final scoring drive against an exhausted and wilting defense - it happens, who can blame the decision makers who thought they could withstand Eli for two minutes, most of us would have taken that bet.

My original query still stands, name a position coach or coordinator whom BB developed who failed to turn in a more than competitive performance?

Pees bio describes "a 37-year coaching veteran...named the defensive coordinator on Bill Belichick's staff on January 17, 2006. Pees served as the Patriots' linebackers coach from 2004-05 and his coaching credentials include six seasons as a collegiate head coach and 15 seasons as a defensive coordinator at the college level." That's a BB hire, not necessarily a BB-developed coach, and would he have been the DC so soon if Mangini hadn't bolted? Either way, his defenses got the team to the AFCCG, SB, and an 11-5 tie-breaker decision - we've seen worse, just not since 2000.

If O'Brien survives this season you can argue he was a BB-developed OC because he started as an offensive assistant despite having been a college OC. He came in through the hawse as it were, and was promoted to OC-in-training over a longer tenured, former NFL OC/college HC who came in as a position coach (and left to take OC in Tampa Bay).

 

[Mike the Brit]

If you think back about ten pages, I just mentioned the OC as one of the *questions* I have about the team this year.

Your points about '05 are all true -- there was a serious drop-off in the defense from '04, but it isn't clear that it can be laid at the DC's door for the reasons mentioned. The factors are just too complicated.

And I'm not going to take up the challenge to name a co-ordinator who didn't work out.

The thing I do think, though, is that it takes anyone, however competent, a while to bed down into a new job -- I don't care if it's co-ordinator for the Patriots or military intelligence -- and, while I don't have complaints about McDaniels in '06 or '07, the job he did in '08 was truly outstanding. He's set a high level for his successor. Even if O'Brien gets there in time, will he do it immediately?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If you think back about ten pages, I just mentioned the OC as one of the *questions* I have about the team this year.

Your points about '05 are all true -- there was a serious drop-off in the defense from '04, but it isn't clear that it can be laid at the DC's door for the reasons mentioned. The factors are just too complicated.

And I'm not going to take up the challenge to name a co-ordinator who didn't work out.

The thing I do think, though, is that it takes anyone, however competent, a while to bed down into a new job -- I don't care if it's co-ordinator for the Patriots or military intelligence -- and, while I don't have complaints about McDaniels in '06 or '07, the job he did in '08 was truly outstanding. He's set a high level for his successor. Even if O'Brien gets there in time, will he do it immediately?

You have questions at more than one spot? Curious.

BB originally recruited O'Brien because of his performance record in college, he's made him start small and work up, and he's once again installed the training wheels to provide some "cover" for the first season's transition. An unquestionably "open" position does make for "questions," yet based on BB's track record to date, I have to say his OC hires have not been a mistake (controvesial as that may be in some quarters ). To go back a page or two, I put your question concerning OC very low on my list, down about 'is Brady resilient enough' level. Odd as it may be, my number one question is interior OL reserves, capabilities and order of battle are quite muddled there.

 

[shmessy]

4 TE's (w/ Baker as a HB/FB/TE)

4 RB's

5 WR's

2 QBs (w/ Gutts on PS)

and a REAL football player named Hochstein as the LS - - - no more of this "specialist crap".

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It's always a pleasure to be schooled by your gentle irony ...

Yes, it's very difficult to assess co-ordinators, even for those who know as much about the technical side of the game as you and Ken. At the least, though, we can say that the DC signed off on Duane "Oops, I guess I'm lost, let me get my map out" Starks and Monty "Ole! There goes the bull" Beisel as his starters.

At my modest level of understanding, one way of telling that a co-ordinator is really doing his job is when I look at the game and get the feeling that the other team is caught off-balance and fails to adapt (or when your team adapts quickly and effectively to something that initially surprises them.)

I felt that we saw that a lot in the offense last season -- for instance, the imaginative ways they found to use of Welker and Faulk to make yards after the catch or the whole game against the Broncos, where, despite having injuries to their backs, the Patriots unexpectedly went run-oriented and just blew them away. Those were sweet things to see and J McD should get a lot of credit. On the other hand, the failure to adapt to a stunting, pass rushing defense in the Game That Must Not Be Named the previous season should also go on the OC (just as the failure to adapt against Miami's Wildcat should be chalked up to the DC).

Fred Smerlas is a former NT who should probably be in the HOF. Last week in talking football on WEEI (something many here claim seldom happens) he summed up what happened in that one failed game. The Giants did something few teams are willing to do, they changed their entire defense - as opposed to adding a few wrinkles - in a two week span leading up to the Superbowl. Most teams won't risk that because there is no guarantee players can or will execute sufficiently to not make the change an unmitigated disaster. The upside if they do is your opponent, who has been dutifully studying tape of your last 18 games, is left in total disaray because none of the tells or keys they have a savant on staff to decipher and players have committed to memory and practiced and game planned to take advantage of are valid.

Having that happen is about as freakish as being beaten by a perfectly covered, once in a lifetime helmet catch...or blindsided by a totally unexpected unveiling of the college wildcat. At the end of the day, if you have to blame someone for those kinds of incidents occasionally occurring, the guy to look to is the genius who has pulled a few ingenius offensive and defensive rabbits out of the hat himself. All things being equal, it's one of the few shots most opponents have at besting a team he coaches, beating him at his own game.

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice...oh yeah, that hasn't happened yet here. And despite it all they led with less than 3 minutes left on the clock. Even after having watched the first 9 excruciating minutes grind off the clock unable to even get their vaunted offense on the field.

 

[patfanken]

Hey Ken is there a Cliffs note version of this post?

Here it is. The Pats are very deep this year, and there will be some interesting competition in camp all cross the broad, especially for the back up positions. How's that?

 

[patfanken]

After watching Cassel in pre-season last year, I wonder how useful it will be to see O'Connell in the same situation. He'll be getting little work with Moss and Welker and will probably be limited with Galloway too. The offense will be vanilla. I'll hope for some reg season blow outs where he can get some 4th quarter work.

I think the Pats will have to struggle with Brady to keep him out of Preseason games. He's going to want to play more than they want him to. Here is what I think we'll see.

3 series in game one - 4 series in game 2 - one half in game 3, and 2 series in game 4

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Here it is. The Pats are very deep this year, and there will be some interesting competition in camp all cross the broad, especially for the back up positions. How's that?

You forgot to add, "why yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."

 

[patchick]

We not only added talent, we added SIZE and strength at the CB position with Boddin and Springs, along with Wilhite who is a long armed 5'11, (which is big for a Patriot CB )

Wow, Wilhite has grown! He's actually the exact same size as Wheatley (5'9.5" 185) -- Richardson and Butler are both taller -- and his arms are average length (31"). But you're not the only poster who has Wilhite pegged bigger. I think that says a lot about his physical style of play.

 

[patfanken]

Wow, Wilhite has grown! He's actually the exact same size as Wheatley (5'9.5" 185) -- Richardson and Butler are both taller -- and his arms are average length (31"). But you're not the only poster who has Wilhite pegged bigger. I think that says a lot about his physical style of play.

Id check those stats if I were you. Both ESPN and Patriots.com have Wilhite at 511 a full 2 inches taller than Weatley, and one inch taller than Butler (he's the same as Richardson).

So I guess by your results...he really HAS grown

 

[APatrioticVirginian]

You forgot to add, "why yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."

I already knew there was a Santa, my Xbox didnt appear out of thin air.

 

[patchick]

Id check those stats if I were you. Both ESPN and Patriots.com have Wilhite at 511 a full 2 inches taller than Weatley, and one inch taller than Butler (he's the same as Richardson).

So I guess by your results...he really HAS grown

Well there you go, a growing boy! Heck, by November he might be an option at OLB. FWIW I'm going by Combine weigh-ins, which are usually the most accurate numbers.