Willie and the cap

[PATSNUTme]

According to Miguels pages , Willie's cap # this year is $8,327,200. If we cut him the cap hit will be $1,320,500, a cap savings of $7mil.

So my question is: If we cut him, what would be his $ value to another team?

If we restructured and or cut/resign, what would be a fair price to pay him?

I say a 3 year contract with a 3 mil bonus and a 2 mil salary and 1mil roster bonus. That would make the contract worth 12 mil for 3 years and a cap hit of 4 mil if he makes the team each year.

We would save about 3mil on the cap this year.

Fair?

 

[tatepatsfan]

If he was going to that though, wouldn't it just make more sense for him (and especially for the team) for him to restructure? I see what you are saying, and it does make logical sense, but I think restructuring would just make more sense.

 

[ilduce06410]

IMO he prings some cap number with him

According to Miguels pages , Willie's cap # this year is $8,327,200. If we cut him the cap hit will be $1,320,500, a cap savings of $7mil.

So my question is: If we cut him, what would be his $ value to another team?

If we restructured and or cut/resign, what would be a fair price to pay him?

I say a 3 year contract with a 3 mil bonus and a 2 mil salary and 1mil roster bonus. That would make the contract worth 12 mil for 3 years and a cap hit of 4 mil if he makes the team each year.

We would save about 3mil on the cap this year.

Fair?

doesn't the receiving team have to oay something on its cap # anyway?

 

[PATSNUTme]

doesn't the receiving team have to oay something on its cap # anyway?

I have no idea what you meant.

 

[flutie2phelan]

According to Miguels pages , Willie's cap # this year is $8,327,200. If we cut him the cap hit will be $1,320,500, a cap savings of $7mil.

So my question is: If we cut him, what would be his $ value to another team?

If we restructured and or cut/resign, what would be a fair price to pay him?

I say a 3 year contract with a 3 mil bonus and a 2 mil salary and 1mil roster bonus. That would make the contract worth 12 mil for 3 years and a cap hit of 4 mil if he makes the team each year.

We would save about 3mil on the cap this year.

Fair?

That's just about what i was going to suggest. A restructure, of course. And i think he knows this is about his value to anyone.

 

[arrellbee]

It would certainly be a sweetheart deal for Willie. But for an almost 36 year old linebacker ?? And how do you value Willie compared to Vrabel at 31 and 3.54M, Harrison at 34 and 2.84M, and Bruschi at 33 and 2.73M ??

No matter how much we love Willie and how many critical plays that he has made, it seems really outside any realism or value to the team.

And it's not like the Patriots haven't done 'right' by Willie. Over $20M for the last 5 years is pretty decent. He's had one of the sweeter deals carried over from the era prior to Belichick and Pioli.

 

[PATSNUTme]

It would certainly be a sweetheart deal for Willie. But for an almost 36 year old linebacker ?? And how do you value Willie compared to Vrabel at 31 and 3.54M, Harrison at 34 and 2.84M, and Bruschi at 33 and 2.73M ??

No matter how much we love Willie and how many critical plays that he has made, it seems really outside any realism or value to the team.

And it's not like the Patriots haven't done 'right' by Willie. Over $20M for the last 5 years is pretty decent. He's had one of the sweeter deals carried over from the era prior to Belichick and Pioli.

so, what do you think he would be worth to another team if we cut him?

 

[arrellbee]

so, what do you think he would be worth to another team if we cut him?

Two year deal with signing bonus 300K to 400K and veteran exception (so it counts around 460K against the cap) so he'd get a little over 900K per year total. And it would probably have to be a 3-4 base defense team that would have any interest. His playing skill set is pretty much OLB in a 4 LB set.

It would sure be great to see him back for at least one more year. There would appear to be room for him unless they sign enough free agents and rookies that show up really strong in training camp.

Bruschi, Tedy
Vrabel, Mike
Colvin, Rosevelt
Izzo, Larry
Davis, Don
McGinest, Willie
Banta-Cain, Tully
Chatham, Matt (ufa)
Claridge, Ryan
Alexander, Eric
Brown, Chad
Beisel, Monty

 

[DaBruinz]

It would certainly be a sweetheart deal for Willie. But for an almost 36 year old linebacker ?? And how do you value Willie compared to Vrabel at 31 and 3.54M, Harrison at 34 and 2.84M, and Bruschi at 33 and 2.73M ??

No matter how much we love Willie and how many critical plays that he has made, it seems really outside any realism or value to the team.

And it's not like the Patriots haven't done 'right' by Willie. Over $20M for the last 5 years is pretty decent. He's had one of the sweeter deals carried over from the era prior to Belichick and Pioli.

Arrellbee - Your facts are wrong again. Willie just turned 34. NOT 35. And Harrison won't turn 34 until December as well.

As for what you consider realism or value, there is a LOT of VALUE to Willie at a reduced Cap number while still paying him what he's earned. I'm sorry that its beyond your ability to understand that.

Also, as I pointed out in the other thread, you are wrong about the "sweeter deal carried over from the era prior to BB and Pioli." You'd know that if you did more than just look at the top page of Miguel's site. You'd know that BB and Pioli gave McGinest a 5 year extension in 2001 and have since renegotiated his contract every year since then. You'd also know that in 2002, McGinest agreed to eliminate 2 million from the contract to help the team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Two year deal with signing bonus 300K to 400K and veteran exception (so it counts around 460K against the cap) so he'd get a little over 900K per year total. And it would probably have to be a 3-4 base defense team that would have any interest. His playing skill set is pretty much OLB in a 4 LB set.

It would sure be great to see him back for at least one more year. There would appear to be room for him unless they sign enough free agents and rookies that show up really strong in training camp.

Bruschi, Tedy
Vrabel, Mike
Colvin, Rosevelt
Izzo, Larry
Davis, Don
McGinest, Willie
Banta-Cain, Tully
Chatham, Matt (ufa)
Claridge, Ryan
Alexander, Eric
Brown, Chad
Beisel, Monty

Arrellbee -
There is no way for the Patriots to give McGinest what you suggest. To qualify for the veteran exception, the signing bonuses and any LTBE bonuses can't be more than $25K. Otherwise they can't qualify.

What you have failed to understand about BB is that he won't cut players who are willing to work with him on deals. And McGinest has shown he's willing to do that time and again.

What you suggest is an absolute INSULT to Willie McGinest and shows a lack of understanding about the entire salary process.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Let me recap my original questions.

1. What fair contract extension should the Patriots offer Willie?
2. If we cut him what value, $ wise, does he have to other teams? What would he be able to get on the open market?

That was the point of this thread. I don't care how 'fair" it looks to other players currently under contract. What I want to know is what will it take to keep him and save money on the cap. Every one seems to agree that the current. 8mil cap hit is too high.

 

[arrellbee]

Arrellbee - Your facts are wrong again. Willie just turned 34. NOT 35. And Harrison won't turn 34 until December as well.

I stand corrected.

As for what you consider realism or value, there is a LOT of VALUE to Willie at a reduced Cap number while still paying him what he's earned. I'm sorry that its beyond your ability to understand that.

Is there some subtle point that I am missing as to why you are nasty ?? I'm not even sure what you are being nasty about. What do you mean by 'what he's earned' ? Has he 'earned' more than 20M for the last 5 years ? We certainly agree that there is probably VALUE for Willie to play for the Pats this year if he doesn't get beat out in training camp. The question is - how much value ? I just expressed a simple opinion as to what I thought that might be. The REALISM is that the value will be whatever the PATRIOTS decide it is. And if they make an offer that Willie doesn't accept, we may never know what that number is. You certainly may have a different idea of what you think the value is. Certainly fair enough. But since I don't claim anything other than an opinion (how could anybody?) there seems little point to your nastiness other than some pleasure in being nasty.

Also, as I pointed out in the other thread, you are wrong about the "sweeter deal carried over from the era prior to BB and Pioli." You'd know that if you did more than just look at the top page of Miguel's site. You'd know that BB and Pioli gave McGinest a 5 year extension in 2001 and have since renegotiated his contract every year since then. You'd also know that in 2002, McGinest agreed to eliminate 2 million from the contract to help the team.

Well, I am interested in what the numbers really are. I am not sure why you call it an extension when, as far as I can tell, the redone deal was still through 2006 just like his previous deal - a restructure. But maybe that's just semantics. But I can use some help if you are saying that he agreed to 2M less in total contract. It sort of looks to me like they just accelerated his outstanding previous signing bonus and actually gave him a new signing bonus - which new bonus may just have been replacing future salary dollars in the previous contract with new up-front bonus dollars. Maybe you can clarify that.

 

[arrellbee]

Arrellbee -
There is no way for the Patriots to give McGinest what you suggest. To qualify for the veteran exception, the signing bonuses and any LTBE bonuses can't be more than $25K. Otherwise they can't qualify.

Another good point. I stand corrected again. If they give him that kind of a bonus, they don't get the salary cap break. I had forgotten that.

What you have failed to understand about BB is that he won't cut players who are willing to work with him on deals. And McGinest has shown he's willing to do that time and again.

No argument from me. The only question is what kind of deal the Patriots are willing to make for Willie at this point as to total dollars that Willie would get. On the other hand, isn't it without doubt the case that if the player won't sign for the amount the Patriots feel is the right value, that they just move on ??

What you suggest is an absolute INSULT to Willie McGinest and shows a lack of understanding about the entire salary process.

Well, that just seems like nastiness again. All I am trying to do is guess what value the Pats would put on bringing Willie back. It really isn't an INSULT to players as they reach the end of their careers - it's just business and the necessity of putting together a complete roster that is as strong as possible for the cap dollars.

I really am not sure what I don't understand about the salary process. As far as I can tell, players with high cap dollars get cut all of the time if the teams feel that they can put together a complete roster that is more competitive by using the money for different players. And it seems especially to be the case with older players with high cap dollars, no matter how beloved they are by the fans AND the team and how much they have meant to the franchise over the years.

 

[JR4]

...... there seems little point to your nastiness other than some pleasure in being nasty.

.

I think you it nailed it. Some people seem to just enjoy degrading people
if their OPINION doesn't line up with there own. I would guess most of
these people think of themselves as highly intelligent and therefore have
the right set others straight by degrading, belittling and disparaging others
with sarcastic, spiteful and malevolent remarks and statements.
Maybe it's a method they've learned to use to vicariously experience what
a true sense of self worth must be like. Sad.

 

[arrellbee]

Let me recap my original questions.

1. What fair contract extension should the Patriots offer Willie?
2. If we cut him what value, $ wise, does he have to other teams? What would he be able to get on the open market?

That was the point of this thread. I don't care how 'fair" it looks to other players currently under contract. What I want to know is what will it take to keep him and save money on the cap. Every one seems to agree that the current. 8mil cap hit is too high.

Good idea to pull things back to the original question - which I thought was certainly a good post question.

I didn't pay close enough attention to the word 'fair' in your original question. That's pretty tough. I was kind of treating it as 'fair market value' rather than the way you may have meant it. If the Pats felt that Willie could still contribute close to what he has done, then maybe a 1.5 mil contract for a year might be fair. Maybe even more like 2M. I don't know. But it is not my impression that the Patriots stand too much on fair. The numbers I mentioned still seem to me to be the most likely market value and what the Patriots most likely would offer. And even then, they might not make an offer formally until free agent season and the draft are over, but I don't think Willie is likely to be in the situation that Phifer was - if he'll take an offer that will cost them little to cut before the season, I think they would make room for him on the expanded roster. The linebacking corps is, I believe, the average oldest position on the team so roster slots may be very valuable for looking toward the future when final roster time comes.

As I said, very good question and a tough one. Just sharing some possibilities.

 

[DaBruinz]

I stand corrected.

Is there some subtle point that I am missing as to why you are nasty ?? I'm not even sure what you are being nasty about. What do you mean by 'what he's earned' ? Has he 'earned' more than 20M for the last 5 years ? We certainly agree that there is probably VALUE for Willie to play for the Pats this year if he doesn't get beat out in training camp. The question is - how much value ? I just expressed a simple opinion as to what I thought that might be. The REALISM is that the value will be whatever the PATRIOTS decide it is. And if they make an offer that Willie doesn't accept, we may never know what that number is. You certainly may have a different idea of what you think the value is. Certainly fair enough. But since I don't claim anything other than an opinion (how could anybody?) there seems little point to your nastiness other than some pleasure in being nasty.

Well, I am interested in what the numbers really are. I am not sure why you call it an extension when, as far as I can tell, the redone deal was still through 2006 just like his previous deal - a restructure. But maybe that's just semantics. But I can use some help if you are saying that he agreed to 2M less in total contract. It sort of looks to me like they just accelerated his outstanding previous signing bonus and actually gave him a new signing bonus - which new bonus may just have been replacing future salary dollars in the previous contract with new up-front bonus dollars. Maybe you can clarify that.

Arrellbee - I called it an extension because that is what it was. If you click on McGinest's name, you can see for yourself, the timeline.

The 1998 contract was set to run through 2002. In 2001, the Patriots Extended it through 2006. They then restructure the deal in 2003, giving Willie a $3 mill signing bonus.

As for him taking the 2 million less, look at the March 9,2002 entry:

March 9, 2002 update Mike Felger of the Boston Herald on 3/8 -
McGinest was to make about $4.6 million in 2002 in salary and roster bonuses. He basically agreed to cut that figure in half, giving back more than $2 million. McGinest's cap figure, which was to be $8.3 million in 2002, will now be under $6 million."

As for Willie earning $20 million over the last 5 years, that is hardly an astounding number considering he's a former 1st round pick. Also, where are you getting your numbers from? I reviewed Miguel's notes and this is what I have.

2001 - 4,338 million
2002 - 1.6 million
2003 - 3.655 million
2004 - 1.845 Million
2005 - 2.5 Million

That's about 14 million over 5 years. There were some playing incentives and SB bonuses that I believe he got, but I don't beleive that they totalled 6 million.

Now, about your other comments. You seem to have made it a habit of making posts without checking facts. And then, you continued with your incorrect facts though people corrected you. There is nothing nasty about pointing out you have ignored the truth.

 

[arrellbee]

I think you it nailed it. Some people seem to just enjoy degrading people if their OPINION doesn't line up with there own. I would guess most of these people think of themselves as highly intelligent and therefore have the right set others straight by degrading, belittling and disparaging others with sarcastic, spiteful and malevolent remarks and statements. Maybe it's a method they've learned to use to vicariously experience what a true sense of self worth must be like. Sad.

Ouch Ouch !!

 

[JR4]

Ouch Ouch !!

It was a general statement, hopefully instructional, not specifically targeted
at one individual.

 

[arrellbee]

Arrellbee - I called it an extension because that is what it was. If you click on McGinest's name, you can see for yourself, the timeline.

The 1998 contract was set to run through 2002. In 2001, the Patriots Extended it through 2006.

Certainly agreed - that was an extension. But I thought you were talking about 2002 when the change then kept the same end year of 2006. I would call that a restructure, but, as I said, maybe that's just semantics.

As for him taking the 2 million less, look at the March 9,2002 entry:

Well, I read that and a lot of the other amazing amount of info that Miguel puts into his notes. But that is why I said I would be interested in whatever clarification you might be able to provide. There's a lot of shortcomings and contradictions in media reports when it comes to this kind of info. It must drive Miguel crazy trying to piece it all together and weigh which info is more likely to be true. But there is a difference in the cap number going down by $2M and the new restructure deal having less total value by $2M. The cap number certainly went down, but other than the media report have you gone thru the numbers to see if his deal was less ? I'd also be interested in whether the NFLPA finger in the pie allows teams to restructure for less dollars - any info on that ?

As for Willie earning $20 million over the last 5 years, that is hardly an astounding number considering he's a former 1st round pick. Also, where are you getting your numbers from? I reviewed Miguel's notes and this is what I have.

2001 - 4,338 million
2002 - 1.6 million
2003 - 3.655 million
2004 - 1.845 Million
2005 - 2.5 Million

That's about 14 million over 5 years. There were some playing incentives and SB bonuses that I believe he got, but I don't beleive that they totalled 6 million. Also, SB money doesn't count against the cap.

Well, I took the cap numbers from Miguel's sheets for 2001 thru 2005.
01 - 4.443
02 - 6.2
03 - 1.981
04 - 3.667
05 - 3.826
which totals up to 20.117. Should I be figuring it some other way ?
And, by the way, there's still another 1.32 still to be amortized so that would actually bring it up to 21.437.

I certainly don't think that's extravagant for a first round pick. But I also certainly don't think it's anything other than a very respectable amount. And that was a contract that Willie got when he was what - 30 ?

Now, about your other comments. You have made it a habit of making posts without checking facts. And then, you continued with your incorrect facts though people corrected you. There is nothing nasty about pointing out you have ignored the truth. Its too bad that you feel that it was.

I feel badly if I have given incorrect information and welcome corrections. I hope you didn't think I was referring to corrections of information as nasty.

 

[flutie2phelan]

Appreciate your very civil tone, Arrellbee!

Not always easy to dispute without acrimony. Hope you don't let the occasional firebrand here knock you off that posture.