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Will we be OK and what will it take?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by fgssand, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Unless and untill we extend Seymour, Branch and maybe even Koppen....we are in trouble.

    Patriots made decisions to get younger and build through draft with a couple of probable key free agent acquisitions..I will be just fine with all of it - IF we sign the young nucleous.

    While there is no hurry, there is great concern from where I am that they will not be able to get these deals done. Then what?

    How and when will we turn this around? Opinions? Thoughts?
     
  2. Jacky Roberts

    Jacky Roberts 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think Seymour is as good as gone unless the Pats actually pay him what he's worth. There will be no hometown discount, thats for sure, nor should he take one. I think Branch and Koppen will be signed.
     
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How are we in trouble if we don't extend Sey, Branch, or Koppen?
     
  4. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Pats can always franchise Seymour for the next 5 years if that's what it takes.

    Branch and Koppen are replaceable players.
     
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Put everything aside, what do you think our record will be, I guess conservatively 11-5, look at the schedule when Sept comes we will put a very good team on the field, some new faces that will make us proud.
     
  6. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    Because we've seen how the defense plays w/o Seymour in the lineup and it's not good. Branch and Koppen are a different story. I like Branch a lot and he's our best WR, but he could probably be replaced. Koppen as well. Losing Seymour presents major problems if we couldn't find a player equal to him or on a long shot, better than him.

    Contrary to what some believe, there is a point where this team could lose players and not be able to replace them with the flick of a wrist.
     
  7. rabthepat

    rabthepat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Seymour

    Seymour must be resigned. Without him our D line gets bullied. I think Koppen will be relatively easy to resign. To me, Branch is not a true #1 receiver. He can be let go. I was more impressed with Rod Smith's, Denver, performance than Deon's and look at the age and speed difference.
     
  8. jimmyjames

    jimmyjames On the Game Day Roster

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    I think this is a big reason why the FO is sitting on their hands here. i still have no doubt that they will spend to the cap, with maybe a slightly larger war chest set aside for adding street free agents throughout the season. But I think that BB knows they can remain competitive without too much tinkering and are not going to add players just for the sake af adding them. Use the draft to get younger at a few key positions, and see who falls to them after the June 1 cuts. Take a year and reload for a sustained period of dominance.

    In Halberstam's book he talks about how Bill was shocked that he won a Super Bowl with the 2001 team. He came so close to it this year despite all of the injuries. He also saw his free agent pick ups fail to grasp his system and I don't think he wants to take that risk again. He has the luxury of job security, so it's not like he has to press and hope that things work out for him. He has always had a master plan in place and has always taken steps to make sure that he has a team in place where no one part is more vital than other. If he has a down year, but starts to groom younger players to take over the franchise would that really be the worst thing in the world?

    I want my team to win it all every year, but that is not relaistic. What is feasible is to be competitive every year, and the key to doing that is to be able to look at things beyond just the season at hand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  9. DocAdkinsDiet

    DocAdkinsDiet Practice Squad Player

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    To me Seymour is a must sign. He's is the only one of those three I think would be a real devastating loss. Branch is a great reciever, but I don't think he will go down as a "great one". Replaceable. Koppen, yeah that line needs work and he's a big part of it, but i think he can be replaced.

    Seymour is the glue for that D. It was brutal watching those guys out there without him. They weren't terrible, but they were just not the same defense. He's one of the best around at what he does and he certainly could go down as a "great one" at his position. He is one of the few that I think the Patriots really need to break out the check book for to keep him happy. He deserves big bucks and I pray to all that is good in this world that the FO gives it to him.
     
  10. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What exactly are we turning around?
    4 division titles and 3 SBs in 5 years?
    The 10-1 playoff record?
    The fact that we have won 68 games in the last 5 years?


    You sound like we are the Cardinals. Why?

    We are in the process of an off-season. We dont play a game for over 5 months. I dont really care if we would win one today, I care what the finished team looks like.

    Here's a hint though.
    If you study free agency, on average you see, the bigger the 'name' you sign, the more you are disappointed. The bigger the 'name' you lose, the less it turned out to hurt you.

    Its OK by me to watch other teams overpay players. I dont care to pay for what a player used to be.
     
  11. broadwayjoe

    broadwayjoe In the Starting Line-Up

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    I hope more people read your post I think its very well put how the Pats do things for example when fans were saying we needed a noseguard well what did the Pats do they waited into preseason and only got the best noseguard out there Big Ted Washington so lets just wait till the season starts before
    some of you throw in the towel.
     
  12. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Because we've seen how the defense plays w/o Seymour in the lineup and it's not good." Can you be more specific? I know what I've seen, but I don't know what "we've" seen and I would like to be able to fully understand your concerns before I commit to agreeing or disagreeing with anybody's points.
     
  13. Feep_FLA

    Feep_FLA Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    This is brilliantly thought out and written. An NFL football team evolves and changes quite a bit over a 5 year period. We have to start losing older albiet loved and respected players in order to continue to gow and improve. It was a real nice 5 year ride, if we all want another nice 5 year run at Divisions, Conferances and SB shots it time to take the rebuild serious right NOW.... :rocker:
     
  14. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    A work in progress is what I meant....


    What needs to be turned around is the sudden fear throughout Patriot nation of a rush towards mediocrity brought about by inability to sign our own FA's (some of whom we definitely wanted, but were certainly overpaid by others) coupled with lack of extension of our key core group. Right now Patriot nation is mourning the loss of veterans that have previously been part of the core group that helped us win three Superbowls. The time had come to get younger fast and turn the "inventory" before it really went bad. It was just the suddenness and reality of it all that hit home to those of us emotionally wrapped up in this team (thankfully BB and SP do not allow emotion to enter into judgement).

    What needs to happen over the coming months is summarized below .I am not panicking by any means, I actually feel that what we are seeing unfold is a brilliant and somewhat predictable (based on the Patriots model as written about by James Lavin and what we have witnessed here since BB took over. It's just that the recent key loss a day bloodletting has to stop, thankfully, there are not too many more players left to lose.

    What I specifically feel must happen is that we need to make significant progress on keeping our young and key core group of talent together. That means extending the contracts this off season (as is how Patriots usually like to operate) of players such as Richard Seymour, Deion Branch, Dan Koppen, Assante Sameuls, Eugene Wilson etc etc. This nucleus along with veterans under contract such as Vrabel, Green, Bruschi, Colvin, Wilfork, Warren, some cat named Brady, Harrison and others I may have missed.

    In addition to the above current roster solidification, we need to have usual successes with the draft - we have a lot of choices and BB/SP have had a lot of time to study this year. Finally, picking up a free agent or two that are decent players at good value will complete the puzzle.

    I guess I am just impatient and there is no need to be as this process has a long way to go before we start playing football again. I just cannot stand to hear the like of Borges, Polian, Priscoe and the usual group of patriot haters go on and on as they are now. It will be all that much sweeter when the finished product wins football games. We will see a very young and talented team filled with a superior mixture of young, battle tested, Superbowl experienced veterans along with a hungry group of rookies and a new free agent or two added to the mix.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why didn't you say that in the first place? ;)
     
  16. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    Because it made my brain hurt.....
     
  17. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    SO now we're implying Seymour isn't that big of a deal? Whose next, Brady?

    Are you implying that our defense performs just as well without Seymour as it does with him in the lineup?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If your looking for meanings within meanings read a detective mystery, I'm trying to talk football. You obviously saw something you didn't like when Seymour was out of the line-up, if you are unable to remember what it was please say so and we'll go from there.
     
  19. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    Sorry Box. I think we've all been a little touchy here this week. You're the film guy so I'll make a point and you can help me by telling me if it's accurate. I'm not a film guy at all so I have respect for people who can sit and break it down.

    In a nutshell, it's always been my feeling that we don't stop the run as well with Seymour out of the lineup as with him in it. WHen he returned this year from his injury I felt like that was the point our defense started to gell. We were controlling the line of scrimmage. I know that's basic but just an opinion.

    What is your opinion of the way our defense plays with and without Seymour?
     
  20. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No worries Sooner!

    It's a limited focus that doesn't take into account how well Wilfork and Colvin were playing, not to mention everybody's favorite LB duo. By player;

    Colvin started out subbing for Vrabel and being eaten up at the point of attack, as the season progressed you could see him progress as he got in more time, by the KC game he was a run stopping monster who required a TE/FB double team while Seymour was being handled by a single OL (1st half).

    Wilfork was trying to do too much and leaving his gap assignments open, this meant Beisel and Brown had to pick up his slack in the middle when they were struggling with their own assignments. By KC, Wilfork was starting to get it and in the second half of the game settled down and did a better job controlling the middle. Bruschi and Vrabel inside helped a heck of a lot.

    I use the KC game as a measuring stick because that was where the tide turned on the line. It was Sey's 2nd or 3rd game back from injury and in the first half they shoved the ball down his throat. In the second half he shut them down and from there to the end of the season was the dominate SOB we've come to love.

    While Sey was out Jarvis was in his spot most of the time, and playing with a bum shoulder alongside struggling players in Wilfork, Colvin, Beisel, and Brown. Vrabel was in there a lot, but Rosie was getting more and more time. You can see Jarvis control his gaps, and the running plays going inside through holes left by the 3-some in training, or outside whenever Colvin was in.

    Seymour is, in general, a better run stopper then Jarvis. There were specific times, like the Oakland game, where the LT kicked Sey's butt, while Jarvis subbing in controlled the LT. That was when they had to go to the four man front because Sey couldn't control the LT, and Wilfork was playing doormat to the C. Once Sey was moved inside with Vince things got disruptive - you may remember Vince's Int that was turned into a fumble recovery, Jarvis jarred the ball loose coming off the edge because they had shifted blockers inside to manage Sey and Wilfork.

    Seymour is the best DL in the NFL today, I'm convinced of that, controlling for Patriots' bias. Still, if BB is unable to extend Sey, I'm also convinced we can still have an excellent run defense. Let's face it, Pittsburgh and other teams have strong run defenses with players I'd rate well below Seymour.

    Jarvis is a better third down man, but he is a solid DL who will control his gaps well. If the other players do the same then the damage is limited. Hill has been written off by some, but I'm remembering that it took Warren and Wilfork two years to develop into the space eaters they are today. Hill hasn't had anywhere near their playing time to improve his technique and reads in actual combat. I believe that if he were to wind up on the line for half a season or better, we would see a dramatic improvement.

    To sum up, extending Seymour is the best option, but if the cost is prohibitive, Hill and Jarvis platooning will still plug up their assignments. Hill will actually get better as the season progresses and he finally gets to apply what he has learned but doesn't have memorized in his reflexes.

    Hope this makes sense, midnight has snuck up on me again and I'm feeling that old mental pumpkin dropoff!
     

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