Wilfork wants Seymour money

[Born_a_Patriot]

I want wants Seymour money also.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree. Wilfork is more valuable to the patriots than anyone not named Brady, by far.

Ok, given the current cap situation, draw up that contract for us, please..... let's see the numbers.

 

[BelichickFan]

And what will we do if Wilfork threatens to sit out this season like Seymour did if he isn't given more money and a commitment of no 2010 franchise?

We'll do what we do - put the next guy in and either trade him or let him make the next move. I love Wilfork but life will go on without him.

#75 does not equal #12.

 

[mgteich]

No Wilfork isn't Bardy, but he isn't Brace either.

We'll do what we do - put the next guy in and either trade him or let him make the next move. I love Wilfork but life will go on without him.

#75 does not equal #12.

 

[RayClay]

Ok, given the current cap situation, draw up that contract for us, please..... let's see the numbers.

Quite honestly, I don't even try to understand the business side. So what is the cap situation when a player has a full year left on a contract, presuming both sides are motivated to get it done and it's a large contract?

I imagine he could either be extended, ripped up and new contract, or agreement in principle to be signed later.

They have tied up valuable players early to get better terms in the past.

 

[BelichickFan]

No Wilfork isn't Bardy, but he isn't Brace either.

It's irrelevant to me. Wilfork or (Brace + $6M+ of other players). Wilfork on his rookie deal = great value to team. Wilfork on a big money deal = decent value to team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Quite honestly, I don't even try to understand the business side. So what is the cap situation when a player has a full year left on a contract, presuming both sides are motivated to get it done and it's a large contract?

I imagine he could either be extended, ripped up and new contract, or agreement in principle to be signed later.

They have tied up valuable players early to get better terms in the past.

Well, Mgteich has been kind of schizophrenic on this issue. He doesn't want to re-sign Wilfork before the season, but Wilfork needs to be signed in order to avoid a hold out. Wilfork's the team's second most important player, but he doesn't want to 'overpay' for him.

He's also said that the team is fine with the cap. So, I figure he's got the solution. I just want to see the numbers.

 

[mgteich]

5 year contract (including this year, although an extension starting next year works also)
$25M bonus
$2.2M 2009 salary guaranteed, increasing by 30% per year
total value $44.04 or $8.08M per year
2009 cap = $7.2M or an increase of $5M
===========================================
There are a dozen ways of coming up with $5M of cap money, given the the current available is $6M. The simplest elements are restructures for Brady and Light and an extension for Faulk. If you need a cut, Green is the man. We still don't know if his bonus will be paid if he is traded, but even if not, his salary is over $2M.
===========================================
The question is how much it will take. An additional $1M or $2M of cap money would increase the total to $9M or $10M a year, which is doable.
============================================
Miguel has posted this many times. If the patriots want to come up with cap money, they can do it. The real question is how much they are willing to pay Wilfork.

Ok, given the current cap situation, draw up that contract for us, please..... let's see the numbers.

 

[RayClay]

Well, Mgteich has been kind of schizophrenic on this issue. He doesn't want to re-sign Wilfork before the season, but Wilfork needs to be signed in order to avoid a hold out. Wilfork's the team's second most important player, but he doesn't want to 'overpay' for him.

He's also said that the team is fine with the cap. So, I figure he's got the solution. I just want to see the numbers.

Well, my personal take is, if a player is happy here (I think Vince is) and a team values that player (certainly do) then there's a price.

I agree with some that that applies to Brady and Wilfork before other considerations. Might not be the same price, but they would like to sew up those two, then figure out how to work the rest of the contracts.

I do think people here underestimate good will and compromise in getting favorable contract terms for the team.

Just look at Warren and Bruschi and some others.

Teams that are always playing hardball and negotiating in the media and franchising their best players when it's a sore point, seem to end up with the worst contract situations.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[RayClay]

And this contract stuff is hard, that's why I'm not going to try to crunch numbers. People forget, Mr. Kraft was giving away the store before Belichick got here.

 

[JFK]

I agree. Wilfork is more valuable to the patriots than anyone not named Brady, by far.

I say M0$$ is.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that you should ask for the numbers. I didn't think that WILFORK would or should sign before the end of the season. If WILFORK is willing to sign now, go for it! Wilfork has the cards. The real question is whether he is willing to hold out this year as Seymour did.

I don't think we have a cap problem. However, I have no interest in Peppers and had only some interest in Taylor. I have said since January that extending Wilfork would be the most important thing we could do in this offseason, if it can be done.

Well, Mgteich has been kind of schizophrenic on this issue. He doesn't want to re-sign Wilfork before the season, but Wilfork needs to be signed in order to avoid a hold out. Wilfork's the team's second most important player, but he doesn't want to 'overpay' for him.

He's also said that the team is fine with the cap. So, I figure he's got the solution. I just want to see the numbers.

 

[RayClay]

I say M0$$ is.

As exciting as Moss is, we won three titles with pretty average receivers.

If our defense is scrambling to find a nose and teams are running all over us (which they did in our off years) we don't get to play offense much.

We don't exactly have a Hall of fame run defense from our linebacker corps barring additions...

All about the Lombardis.

 

[Deus Irae]

5 year contract (including this year, although an extension starting next year works also)
$25M bonus
$2.2M 2009 salary guaranteed, increasing by 30% per year
total value $44.04 or $8.08M per year
2009 cap = $7.2M or an increase of $5M
===========================================
There are a dozen ways of coming up with $5M of cap money, given the the current available is $6M. The simplest elements are restructures for Brady and Light and an extension for Faulk. If you need a cut, Green is the man. We still don't know if his bonus will be paid if he is traded, but even if not, his salary is over $2M.
===========================================
The question is how much it will take. An additional $1M or $2M of cap money would increase the total to $9M or $10M a year, which is doable.
============================================
Miguel has posted this many times. If the patriots want to come up with cap money, they can do it. The real question is how much they are willing to pay Wilfork.

Miguel has posted a lot of things, and he's generally been excellent with this stuff. Your claim has been something different, however. Yes, the team could make moves, including cuts, but you were talking about the cap being fine just the way it is, and telling us that "we don't need more cap room". As I tried to point out at the time, such a comment assumes no further movement and requires the team to allow several good/great players to reach free agency next year.

By the way, just spreading that $25 million over 5 years and adding nothing more is an extra $5 million for this season. The team doesn't have the money to do that right now, along with signing the rookies, the final players and the practice squad players. Other moves would have to be made, which is why I've mentioned some players I think might be vulnerable in other posts.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/241234-we-dont-need-find-more-cap-room.html

Here was Miguel's take, from that thread, on the current situation:

I am estimating that
the Pats are under the cap by about 6.05 million.
it will take about $1.45 million in cap space to sign the 2009 draft picks
it will take about $1.25 million in cap space to sign players 52,53 and the practice squad.
that leaves about $2.79 million in cap space BEFORE
leaving a reserve to replace injured players
leaving a reserve to account for NLTBE incentives that may be reached in 2009
players not in Top 51 list displace players in the Top 51 thereby creating cap space.

So, as of now, with no further adjustments such as those he mentions (both helpful and not helpful), the team has under $3 million in cap space post-signings. Miguel has always felt that the team could massage the cap if it needed to, but that may not be as easy to do over the next couple of seasons as it has been historically, because of the way the CBA is structured for these last years. I'm sure that I'm missing something, and Miguel (or the Patriots, if they were willing) could probably point it out to me, but it seems to me as if this team is just about as cap strapped as it's been in the Belichick era.


edit: you got post #32 in while I was putting this together, so please ignore anything here that you've already addressed in that post.

 

[BelichickFan]

As exciting as Moss is, we won three titles with pretty average receivers.

We haven't won one with Wilfork either

 

[BelichickFan]

I say M0$$ is.

I'd take Moss or Welker over Wilfork. I love Wilfork but he's not a factor against the pass and as great as he is against the run you can find guys to get the job done; not as well as Wilfork but a big dude run stopper can be found more easily than a Moss or Welker.

 

[fnordcircle]

I'd take Moss or Welker over Wilfork. I love Wilfork but he's not a factor against the pass and as great as he is against the run you can find guys to get the job done; not as well as Wilfork but a big dude run stopper can be found more easily than a Moss or Welker.

Saying Wilfork is not a factor against the pass is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this forum.

What's more the fact that people are so ready to dismiss his impact on the run D shows just how short memories are around here. Does anyone want to go back to the Run D we had in 2002?

 

[mgteich]

I agree with Miguel's analysis. And I'll go further. I'll stipulate that $2.79M is about right for an injury reserve for the season. So we are all set, even with the board, as of now. Adding a couple of minimum price vets won't make any net difference, since there will some gain when guys like Guyton are added to those counting toward the cap.
==========================================================
There are least the following possibilities for coming up with cap monies. Only Miguel can really do the analysis. He can spaek for himself, but I believe that he posted recently (with reference to the possiblity of signing Taylor) that $5M was doable. I look forward to hearing his views again.

I don't view this as a 2009 cap "problem". We have enough to do what we need to do for this year. The question is what can we take advantage of this opportunity, if it is really there, which I somewhat doubt.
======================

THE NEED - $5M-$6M a year

SOURCES
1) Restructure Brady.
2) Restructure Light.
3) Extend Faulk.
4) Extend Green (only reasonable if the $2.3m bonus MUST be paid)
-----------------
5) Cut Green.
6) Cut Kaczur.


BOTTOM LINE
We could extend Wilfork, Faulk and Green and be much better off as a team for 2010.

Miguel has posted a lot of things, and he's generally been excellent with this stuff. Your claim has been something different, however. Yes, the team could make moves, including cuts, but you were talking about the cap being fine just the way it is, and telling us that "we don't need more cap room". As I tried to point out at the time, such a comment assumes no further movement and requires the team to allow several good/great players to reach free agency next year.

By the way, just spreading that $25 million over 5 years and adding nothing more is an extra $5 million for this season. The team doesn't have the money to do that right now, along with signing the rookies, the final players and the practice squad players. Other moves would have to be made, which is why I've mentioned some players I think might be vulnerable in other posts.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/241234-we-dont-need-find-more-cap-room.html

Here was Miguel's take, from that thread, on the current situation:



So, as of now, with no further adjustments such as those he mentions (both helpful and not helpful), the team has under $3 million in cap space post-signings. Miguel has always felt that the team could massage the cap if it needed to, but that may not be as easy to do over the next couple of seasons as it has been historically, because of the way the CBA is structured for these last years. I'm sure that I'm missing something, and Miguel (or the Patriots, if they were willing) could probably point it out to me, but it seems to me as if this team is just about as cap strapped as it's been in the Belichick era.


edit: you got post #32 in while I was putting this together, so please ignore anything here that you've already addressed in that post.

 

[RayClay]

We haven't won one with Wilfork either

2004....

We were lucky enough to get Ted Washington and a couple years of Traylor (who platooned with Vince for that championship) so we didn't have to see how the 3-4 was run with Rick Lyle at NT.

 

[slash83]

I just cant see BB letting both wilfork and seymour go the same year, one of them will be retained somehow and id put my money, what little I have on wilfork lol