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Why didn't we draft Everette Brown?


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Like he did with DeMarcus Ware?!? or Merriman? I think the talent justified picking in the top 10 that year and neither one of them went in the top 10.
Though neither one went in the top ten, it still would have taken a trade in to the top ten to get them since Ware went #11 and Merriman went #12.

I think in the case of trading up to #10 or better to get Ware, what the Pats would have had to have given up was too much; it would have made the risk/reward a poor value.

In Merriman's case his pre-draft evaluations were lower than what his production has been. Twenty-twenty hindsight of draft picks is ridiculously easy if you want to point out how any team has 'failed' in their evaluations and draft selections.

It's like that guy who watches a game and after every play that did not result in a touchdown (or at least a first down) throws his hands up in the air and loudly declares "run the ball" when they passed or "pass the ball" when they run.

While it's easy to say now that the Pats should have traded up in to the top ten to get one of these guys, it's impossible to evaluate because we have no idea what they would have had to give up to make the trade happen, or if those other teams would have considered a trade at all. How can you evaluate whether a trade that would land Ware or Merriman would be worth it without knowing what they were traded for?
 
Also wanted to point out that the idea that Belichick never trades up is a myth:

2001: Traded up in the 4th round from #112 to #96 draft Kenyatta Jones
2001: Traded up in the 2nd round from #50 to #48 to draft Matt Light
2002: Traded up in the 4th round from #131 to #117 to draft Rohan Davey
2002: Traded up in the 1st round from #32 to #21 to draft Daniel Graham
2003: Traded up in the 4th round from #128 to #120 to draft Asante Samuel
2003: Traded up in the 2nd round from #50 to #45 to draft Bethel Johnson
2003: Traded up in the 2nd round from #41 to #36 to draft Eugene Wilson
2003: Traded up in the 1st round from #14 to #13 to draft Ty Warren
2006: Traded up in the 2nd round from #52 to #36 to draft Chad Jackson
2008: Traded up in the 5th round from #160 to #153 to draft Matt Slater
2009: Traded up in the 2nd round from #47 to #40 to draft Ron Brace

As you can see, trading up is not a sure-fire thing or cure-all by any stretch of the imagination. On the other hand, the Pats have done much better by moving up with future picks. For example a #91 pick in 2007 became a #69 in 2008, which eventually became Brace at #40 in 2009.

A first round #28 pick in 2007 became a #7 pick in 2008, which became Jerod Mayo at #10 and Shawn Crabel at #78. That trade in to the next season also netted the Pats a 4th round (#110) pick - which was later traded for Randy Moss.

Mayo, Crabel and Moss in exchange for the 28th pick of the draft? I say trading down might be a better way to go than trading up.
 
Though neither one went in the top ten, it still would have taken a trade in to the top ten to get them since Ware went #11 and Merriman went #12.

I think in the case of trading up to #10 or better to get Ware, what the Pats would have had to have given up was too much; it would have made the risk/reward a poor value.

In Merriman's case his pre-draft evaluations were lower than what his production has been. Twenty-twenty hindsight of draft picks is ridiculously easy if you want to point out how any team has 'failed' in their evaluations and draft selections.

It's like that guy who watches a game and after every play that did not result in a touchdown (or at least a first down) throws his hands up in the air and loudly declares "run the ball" when they passed or "pass the ball" when they run.

While it's easy to say now that the Pats should have traded up in to the top ten to get one of these guys, it's impossible to evaluate because we have no idea what they would have had to give up to make the trade happen, or if those other teams would have considered a trade at all. How can you evaluate whether a trade that would land Ware or Merriman would be worth it without knowing what they were traded for?

This is what I am saying, 3-4 OLB prospects that have shown the ability to cover, set the edge, and rush the passer and are over 6'4 and 250lbs (and a good wonderlic score because everybody knows the wonderlic is how you determine who the "smart" football players are:rolleyes:) are not going to slip into the Pats range so they will probably have to trade up. Now if you look at DeMarcus Ware and what he has done in the NFL and he wasnt worth trading up for at the time who will be in the future. With the amount of teams now playing a 3-4 the demand for OLB is higher than ever so how will BB land one of these perfect OLB prospects?
 
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This is what I am saying, 3-4 OLB prospects that have shown the ability to cover, set the edge, and rush the passer and are over 6'4 and 250lbs (and a good wonderlic score because everybody knows the wonderlic is how you determine who the "smart" football players are:rolleyes:) are not going to slip into the Pats range so they will probably have to trade up. Now if you look at DeMarcus Ware and what he has done in the NFL and he wasnt worth trading up for at the time who will be in the future. With the amount of teams now playing a 3-4 the demand for OLB is higher than ever so how will BB land one of these perfect OLB prospects?

Looks to me that the best case scenario to get in to that range would be to make a trade like the one that landed Mayo (i.e., Pats trade this year's 2nd to a team for next year's first. The downside to that is that it would mean the Pats would not be drafting that player till 2011. Also, there is no guarantee that the team they trade with ends up with a top ten or fifteen pick the following year.

A more likely scenario is a two-picks-for-one; moving up by trading a first and third or two seconds, for example. Seems like the NFL analysts were saying that there were a lot of teams with early picks looking to trade down (e.g., the Jacksonville rumor), but it's hard to evaluate when we never know if there was any truth to those rumors and what they wanted in return.

I did expect to see that happen last April given the large number of picks the Pats had; maybe it will happen next year. There's a lot of possible explanations as to why it didn't happen this year, such as:
  • cap space; the Pats are barely under now, even without a top ten pick
  • uncapped year; maybe the Pats plan is to go after a top ten pick in a year with no salary cap
  • willing trade partner but available players at that spot were not highly ranked
  • highly ranked player available but team not willing to trade, or asking too much in return

If I had to make a guess, I would say that BB just wasn't sold on any of the top OLB in this year's draft. All we can do is speculate, but that would be my guess.
 
Isn't it telling that we have to go all the way back to Merriman and Ware in 2005 to find examples of pass rushers the Pats "should have traded up for"? The fact is that a guy like DeMarcus Ware is a very, very rare bird -- and 3-4 OLB is a difficult and risky position to draft toward.

A few months ago on the draft board I tallied up 10 round-1 picks at that position since Merriman and Ware, and not one of them has lived up to the hype.
 
Isn't it telling that we have to go all the way back to Merriman and Ware in 2005 to find examples of pass rushers the Pats "should have traded up for"? The fact is that a guy like DeMarcus Ware is a very, very rare bird -- and 3-4 OLB is a difficult and risky position to draft toward.

A few months ago on the draft board I tallied up 10 round-1 picks at that position since Merriman and Ware, and not one of them has lived up to the hype.

You don't understand. Every player the Patriots have drafted since 2004 is a bust. Only other teams know how to draft.

Also

Belichick gives control of the offense to incompetents, which is why it sets records

And

The Steelers draft All Pro linebackers with every first round pick they have

And

Injuries are excuses for other teams and other teams' players, but they don't matter in New England

And

18 straight wins in a season followed by a 3 point loss just proves that the offensive system prevents winning

And more....
 
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You don't understand. Every player the Patriots have drafted since 2004 is a bust. Only other teams know how to draft.
Your so cool, too bad nobody said anything about that.

Also

Belichick gives control of the offense to incompetents, which is why it sets records
Who was talking about the offense? This thread is all about Defense/pass rush
And

The Steelers draft All Pro linebackers with every first round pick they have
James Harrison was undrafted and Woodley was a second rounder.
And


Injuries are excuses for other teams and other teams' players, but they don't matter in New England
Again What the hell are you talking about?
And

18 straight wins in a season followed by a 3 point loss just proves that the offensive system prevents winning
Nobody is talking about offense once again.

And more....

What in the hell are you talking about?
 
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I'm confused. Is this conversation about Everette Brown and his inability to be a 34 OLB, or is this about Patriots draft strategy? Also, is the topic now towards the idea that a prototype 34 OLB is only available in the top part of the 1st round?
 
I'm confused. Is this conversation about Everette Brown and his inability to be a 34 OLB, or is this about Patriots draft strategy? Also, is the topic now towards the idea that a prototype 34 OLB is only available in the top part of the 1st round?

1) The original question was why we didnt draft E.B., the answers varied from his height to his possible inability to set the edge or drop into coverage.
2) The idea is that with the massive influx of teams using the 3-4 that "perfect" OLB will not be available where the Pats pick (usually in the 20's but hopefully 32).
 
What in the hell are you talking about?

Hahahaha, you've actually managed to confuse yourself. Priceless. Kinda like the fact that you went from saying that top-tier OLBs are only available in the top 15 in one post, then in the next post pointed out that James Harrison was an UDFA.
 
Isn't it telling that we have to go all the way back to Merriman and Ware in 2005 to find examples of pass rushers the Pats "should have traded up for"? The fact is that a guy like DeMarcus Ware is a very, very rare bird -- and 3-4 OLB is a difficult and risky position to draft toward.

A few months ago on the draft board I tallied up 10 round-1 picks at that position since Merriman and Ware, and not one of them has lived up to the hype.

Hahaha, good point. This kinda reminds me of the people who absolutely freaked out when we didn't trade past the Jets to grab Gholston.
 
1) The original question was why we didnt draft E.B., the answers varied from his height to his possible inability to set the edge or drop into coverage.
2) The idea is that with the massive influx of teams using the 3-4 that "perfect" OLB will not be available where the Pats pick (usually in the 20's but hopefully 32).

Right. Got it. I am now going to answer those line by line.

1) While all three of those were reasons, the main one was that he simply did not fit the scheme. Brown is a poor man's Dwight Freeny with less explosion, and less agility. He is very tight in the hips, which makes him near impossible to plug in at linebacker. A linebacker is a linebacker is a linebacker. Simply because the defense evolved out of the 52 and the position evolved out of ends does not make the requirements the same as an undersized end.

2) I don't know about a massive influx. Last time I checked, there hasn't been an expansion in a few years. A shift? Maybe, but that's the way the game moves and evolves. The thing that you can't seem to grasp is that just because a defense is a 34 doesn't mean the defenses are the same, nor are they remotely similar. There's respective permutations, hybrids, strategies, and philosophies for each brand of the defense. Ranging from the purest (albeit troglodytic and deeply flawed) 1-gap downhill schemes (ie, San Diego, Dallas) to the purest 2-gap reactionary scheme (Cleveland). The players you need for each scheme are different. In the NE scheme (somewhere between LeBeau and Mangini) the players have a highly complex set of requirements. Rushing the passer is only a small fraction of what the players are asked to do. In fact, one could argue that the ability to run with and cover TE's is the primary requirement.

Players in college don't play in the NE 34. There is no other version of it in the major 1a conferences. It is simply too complicated to effectively implement on the collegiate level. Keep in mind that these are student athletes who don't have as much time as professionals to grasp these concepts and learn their responsibilities at such a high level. Accordingly, it is a crap shoot in tape evaluation. Tape evaluation is the single most valuable aspect of the draft, and is roughly 85% of a team's decision. I know this because I have college teammates currently playing in the NFL. Downhill 34 schemes are far easier to scout for, because you are essentially taking a defensive end and moving him off the line three yards in a two point. It's the same position in that scheme as it is in college.

To suggest that the only way to get an outstanding 34 OLB is to take a player in the top 10 is...well....frankly ******ed. The Patriots wouldn't have enough tape on the player to make a risk mitigating evaluation. Instead, they chose to identify potential fits available in the later rounds or in free agency. This is obviously in the interest of risk management and BPA. They only recently have begun looking for the fits at the position. We (fans) currently have no idea how any of these players are going to pan out.
 
You don't understand. Every player the Patriots have drafted since 2004 is a bust. Only other teams know how to draft.

Also

Belichick gives control of the offense to incompetents, which is why it sets records

And

The Steelers draft All Pro linebackers with every first round pick they have

And

Injuries are excuses for other teams and other teams' players, but they don't matter in New England

And

18 straight wins in a season followed by a 3 point loss just proves that the offensive system prevents winning

And more....

What in the hell are you talking about?

This may help:
sarcasm_detector.jpg
 
Right. Got it. I am now going to answer those line by line.

1) While all three of those were reasons, the main one was that he simply did not fit the scheme. Brown is a poor man's Dwight Freeny with less explosion, and less agility. He is very tight in the hips, which makes him near impossible to plug in at linebacker. A linebacker is a linebacker is a linebacker. Simply because the defense evolved out of the 52 and the position evolved out of ends does not make the requirements the same as an undersized end.
I wouldnt call him a poor mans Dwight Freeny yet because none of use have seen him play in the NFL yet. Players evolve as they get to the NFL, hopefully every player that we draft learns new things and becomes a better player than before. As far as "the system goes, find a player coming out of college that "fits the system" over the past few years.

2) I don't know about a massive influx. Last time I checked, there hasn't been an expansion in a few years. A shift? Maybe, but that's the way the game moves and evolves. The thing that you can't seem to grasp is that just because a defense is a 34 doesn't mean the defenses are the same, nor are they remotely similar. There's respective permutations, hybrids, strategies, and philosophies for each brand of the defense. Ranging from the purest (albeit troglodytic and deeply flawed) 1-gap downhill schemes (ie, San Diego, Dallas) to the purest 2-gap reactionary scheme (Cleveland). The players you need for each scheme are different. In the NE scheme (somewhere between LeBeau and Mangini) the players have a highly complex set of requirements. Rushing the passer is only a small fraction of what the players are asked to do. In fact, one could argue that the ability to run with and cover TE's is the primary requirement.
I used the word influx because the 3-4 use to be an exclusive club at one point, BB himself said that when he got to NE it was only them and Pitt that were running the 3-4( I belive) Yes diffrent 3-4 D's exist, I know that Rex Ryans 3-4 is more aggresive than ours but that does not mean that the players that play in the diffrent 3-4s cannot adapt to our 3-4 (Look at Adalius Thomas comming from Baltimore) I also have to disagree that rushing the passer is only a small fraction because if you watch a game from last year or any year from when BB arrived I promise you that you will see the OLB Rushing the Passer more than dropping into coverage on passing plays.
Players in college don't play in the NE 34. There is no other version of it in the major 1a conferences. It is simply too complicated to effectively implement on the collegiate level. Keep in mind that these are student athletes who don't have as much time as professionals to grasp these concepts and learn their responsibilities at such a high level. Accordingly, it is a crap shoot in tape evaluation. Tape evaluation is the single most valuable aspect of the draft, and is roughly 85% of a team's decision. I know this because I have college teammates currently playing in the NFL. Downhill 34 schemes are far easier to scout for, because you are essentially taking a defensive end and moving him off the line three yards in a two point. It's the same position in that scheme as it is in college.

To suggest that the only way to get an outstanding 34 OLB is to take a player in the top 10 is...well....frankly ******ed. The Patriots wouldn't have enough tape on the player to make a risk mitigating evaluation. Instead, they chose to identify potential fits available in the later rounds or in free agency. This is obviously in the interest of risk management and BPA. They only recently have begun looking for the fits at the position. We (fans) currently have no idea how any of these players are going to pan out.
OF course you can get an outstanding 3-4 OLB from other rounds in the draft but what I am saying is your not going to get the "perfect OLB" in this day in age with so many teams now running a variation of the 3-4. Free Agency is another option as so many OLB are projected to be Free agents after this season, but will the Pats fork over the money with all of their own free agents?

Honestly I hope Crable steps up and shows that he can be a solid 3-4 OLB for us.
 
This may help:
sarcasm_detector.jpg

Sarcasm is the lowest form of comedy... -__-



still what does the offense have to do with anything in this thread?
 
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2) The idea is that with the massive influx of teams using the 3-4 that "perfect" OLB will not be available where the Pats pick (usually in the 20's but hopefully 32).

FYI, here are the Pats-style OLB prospects drafted in the top half of round 1 since Merriman & Ware (this year's rookie unknowables not included):

A.J. Hawk
Kamerion Wimbley
Vernon Gholston
Derrick Harvey

So anybody who's arguing that the Pats have hurt themselves by not aggressively trading up toward the top of round 1 for an OLB must think one of those guys was worth trading the farm for. Which one?
 
I wouldnt call him a poor mans Dwight Freeny yet because none of use have seen him play in the NFL yet. Players evolve as they get to the NFL, hopefully every player that we draft learns new things and becomes a better player than before. As far as "the system goes, find a player coming out of college that "fits the system" over the past few years.

I think you have no idea how talent is evaluated, and I don't mean that as an insult. Read this link, for starters. Dimitroff was Pioli's right hand man in NE, so he's talking about NE principles here:

GM Dimitroff looks to build on last year's success | ajc.com

Players evolve as they get to the NFL, yes, but their core physical attributes don't change. Their conditioning can improve, sure, but much as you don't expect a 4.7 WR to become a 4.3 speedster as he 'evolves' into the NFL, you don't expect a guy like Brown to become physically capable of being a 3-4 OLB. If a guy is technically unprepared to be a 3-4 LB, then that can maybe be taught. If he's physically incapable of excelling at the role, then it is what it is. You're never going to ask Wes Welker to be a deep threat, so don't ask Brown to drop into coverage. He's physically incapable of performing well in this capacity.

I used the word influx because the 3-4 use to be an exclusive club at one point, BB himself said that when he got to NE it was only them and Pitt that were running the 3-4( I belive) Yes diffrent 3-4 D's exist, I know that Rex Ryans 3-4 is more aggresive than ours but that does not mean that the players that play in the diffrent 3-4s cannot adapt to our 3-4 (Look at Adalius Thomas comming from Baltimore) I also have to disagree that rushing the passer is only a small fraction because if you watch a game from last year or any year from when BB arrived I promise you that you will see the OLB Rushing the Passer more than dropping into coverage on passing plays.

Thomas is a poor example, since his hallmark is his versatility. Even on the Patriots, he's played both ILB and OLB. He's one of the few guys in the league who could probably play any LB position in any 3-4 scheme with varying levels of effectiveness.

OF course you can get an outstanding 3-4 OLB from other rounds in the draft but what I am saying is your not going to get the "perfect OLB" in this day in age with so many teams now running a variation of the 3-4. Free Agency is another option as so many OLB are projected to be Free agents after this season, but will the Pats fork over the money with all of their own free agents?

They're not looking for the same things in a LB that the Pats are, though. Dallas and San Diego have completely different responsibilities for their LBs than the Pats do. One of many reasons why you don't see them going after our players or us going after their players, really. You're right that there are a few teams that may be encroaching on our talent pool, but there aren't a whole lot of them still. Looks like the Chiefs may be headed that way, and the Browns are already there.

Who have been the Pats' best OLBs in the 3-4? Vrabel could barely make the roster in Pittsburgh, yet was productive from day one here. Why? Because his talents were better-suited for the NE system (this also goes against your assertion that you can't find good OLBs for the Pats' system outside of the top 10).

And once again, go back to that list that patchick put up: which of those guys was worth trading up for? Belichick seemed to think that none of them were, and I'd probably agree. Wimbley intrigues me, but not for what they would've had to give up. Out of curiosity, were you disappointed when the Pats didn't get Gholston last year? If not, why not?
 
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FYI, here are the Pats-style OLB prospects drafted in the top half of round 1 since Merriman & Ware (this year's rookie unknowables not included):

A.J. Hawk
Kamerion Wimbley
Vernon Gholston
Derrick Harvey

So anybody who's arguing that the Pats have hurt themselves by not aggressively trading up toward the top of round 1 for an OLB must think one of those guys was worth trading the farm for. Which one?

That is the thing, none of thoes guys have panned out so far and they were considerd OLB prospects for us. So it has been 4 years since a round 1 OLB prospect has made an impact in the NFL. No dont you think if we change it up a bit and maybe take a chance in the SECOND round on a player who some here feel could rush the passer since that was our biggest weakness. I mean DWare was said to be tight in the hips as well.
 
Not having read the first 120 posts, I believe that the question should be: Why didn't we draft Connor Barwin? He would've been a better fit here than Everette Brown.

More questions:
Why didn't we also draft Lawrence Sidbury instead of Shortburger?
Why didn't we draft Cliff Avril instead of Chicken Legs?
Why didn't we draft Jacob Ford instead of Mike Richardson?
Why didn't we draft Mark Anderson instead of Garrett Mills or Ryan O'Callahan?

You don't need a top-10-overall pick to find 3-4 OLBs who could help you, but it's hard to fix a problem if you don't at least attempt to acquire the pieces to help you fix it.
 
Not having read the first 120 posts, I believe that the question should be: Why didn't we draft Connor Barwin? He would've been a better fit here than Everette Brown.

More questions:
Why didn't we also draft Lawrence Sidbury instead of Shortburger?
Why didn't we draft Cliff Avril instead of Chicken Legs?
Why didn't we draft Jacob Ford instead of Mike Richardson?
Why didn't we draft Mark Anderson instead of Garrett Mills or Ryan O'Callahan?

You don't need a top-10-overall pick to find 3-4 OLBs who could help you, but it's hard to fix a problem if you don't at least attempt to acquire the pieces to help you fix it.

They acquired Shawn Crable and Tully Banta-Cain, didn't they? I agree that Barwin's a way more reasonable suggestion, but claiming that they're just standing pat simply isn't true. I'd think that Belichick would have a longer leash with the fans, but apparently there's a large portion of the Patriot fanbase that's exactly as whiny, petulant, and entitled as everyone claims we all are.
 
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