What starters lost their job in BB era?

[Box_O_Rocks]

O'Neal to Wilhite.

 

[jmt57]

BB has always maintained that there is open competition and every year you earn your job again.

Well can you think of any Starter that lost their Job to a new player or rookie BECAUSE of PRE-SEASON COMPETITION? ( in the BB era) (do not count open positions because a player left or IRed)

I'm guessing from the way the question is phrased that you don't believe there really is open competition during the pre-season for a starting job.

There have been a few examples - granted not many - in the thread so far, so we know it is possible to win or lose a starting job during training camp on a Belichick team.

But without knowing how many starting positions are lost during training camp on other teams, I have no idea if this number is low, high or average. And it could also simply mean that good teams have less camp battles for a starting position than teams coming off a losing season.

My gut feeling is that on teams like the recent Steeler, Colts and Pats squads there is very little competition for a starting position, but there are still plenty of roster battles for backup and special team spots. On the other hand teams coming off a bad year (e.g., Rams, Lions) or even those coming off a winning season but with a change of head coach (e.g., Bucs), it stands to reason that there will be many more starters determined during training camp.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

I'm guessing from the way the question is phrased that you don't believe there really is open competition during the pre-season for a starting job.

There have been a few examples - granted not many - in the thread so far, so we know it is possible to win or lose a starting job during training camp on a Belichick team.

But without knowing how many starting positions are lost during training camp on other teams, I have no idea if this number is low, high or average. And it could also simply mean that good teams have less camp battles for a starting position than teams coming off a losing season.

My gut feeling is that on teams like the recent Steeler, Colts and Pats squads there is very little competition for a starting position, but there are still plenty of roster battles for backup and special team spots. On the other hand teams coming off a bad year (e.g., Rams, Lions) or even those coming off a winning season but with a change of head coach (e.g., Bucs), it stands to reason that there will be many more starters determined during training camp.

There is also a difference between the question of "is possible?" and "how often does it occur?"

I believe BB when he says that every position is open competition and you must earn your job. But there is also a reason why the incumpent front runner is the front runner.

There are sometimes situations where a starter can not lose his job in training camp, no matter how good the backup may look in training camp. For example there was not open competition for the QB spot in training camp in 2001. For several years that was the case in Greenbay. Last year there was nothing Clemens or Favre could have done in preseason for Favre not to start for the Jets.

However, if Brace in preseason does such an awesome job that BB and Pees say, "Wow, this guy is good. He is better than Wilfork right now" Then Wilfork is riding the pine and the Pats have a new starting NT. But having open competition and Brace having a shot doesn't mean that we should expecting that it happens to often.

Likewise, I think BB has an open mind and if KOC lights pre-season up and TB has lost a step becauase of the injury, then KOC is the QB. But once again just because BB has an open mind doesn't mean there is much of chance of it occuring.

 

[JR4]

......

Likewise, I think BB has an open mind and if KOC lights pre-season up and TB has lost a step becauase of the injury, then KOC is the QB. But once again just because BB has an open mind doesn't mean there is much of chance of it occuring.

I think there is more in BB's equation than just how a player looks in TC and
pre-season.
IMO, Yes open competition but
1. a player has to show he IS by far better than a starter.
2. BB has to feel the player's lack of experience will not be an issue.

This hardly ever happens. Experience counts a lot!

For example I do not see Brace replacing Wilfork at the get go.
Even if he is very good he won't start in place of Vince. He would
sub in and may get more snaps as the year progresses. Then next year
BB makes the transition.

If Hobbs was still on board I bet he WOULD be starting.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If Hobbs was still on board I bet he WOULD be starting.

I concur...

 

[DaBruinz]

I think there was a guy named Bledsoe.

Bledsoe lost his position because he got injured... And then couldn't regain it.

The name that immediately sprang to mind was David Patten. But Troy Brown also fits... Christian Fauria would fit.

Max Lane would be another one.

 

[DaBruinz]

He was cut because of the cap but Rodney was clearly going to be the starting Strong Safety and for coverage reasons the emerging Wilson was going to be used as well so Milloy lost his starting spot to Rodney and his roster spot to the cap

There is only one problem with your thought. Wilson was not used at Safety during training camp. Milloy was cut because only he and Law hadn't already renegotiated their contracts and the Pats were over the cap by 2 million because of injuries. They needed one person whom they could cut to gain that 2 million in space. And that was Milloy or Law. And, with Rodney on Board, Milloy was the more easily replaceable.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I don't know who *lost* the starting job, but it's my guess that Logan Mankins was not expected to start at left guard his first year. He was drafted as a tackle and, even if the Patriots intended all along to convert him to guard, I'd have been very surprised if they planned for him to start immediately. If I'm right, whoever was in the starting left guard slot (Russ Hochstein?) got beaten out in camp, I guess.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ted Johnson. Roman Phifer initially squeezed him out of passing downs and in the 2003 season squeezed him out of rushing downs too to the point that Johnson was inactivated and briefly walked away from the team.

Johnson was inactive because he threw a tantrum with BB because BB had him on the bench for disciplinary action.

Reche Caldwell went from primary WR in 2006 to off the team by the end of preseason of 2007. Granted he had a very slim shot going into camp of holding onto a starting role, but he was fighting for the #3 role.

Corey Dillon did lose his starting role to Maroney, but they were more of a split situation going into the season. Although Maroney ran a lot at the beginning of the Buffalo game.

Brandon Gorin was replaced by Nick Kazcur. Damien Woody was moved to guard for Dan Koppen.

Gorin wasn't officially the starter at RT. He was playing for the injured Tom Ashworth.

Woody was moved to guard because Mike Compton was injured. Koppen was better at doing the shotgun snap and that Woody was better than Hochstein, Gorin or Ashworth at guard.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't know who *lost* the starting job, but it's my guess that Logan Mankins was not expected to start at left guard his first year. He was drafted as a tackle and, even if the Patriots intended all along to convert him to guard, I'd have been very surprised if they planned for him to start immediately. If I'm right, whoever was in the starting left guard slot (Russ Hochstein?) got beaten out in camp, I guess.

It could be argued that Hochstein was the 'default' LG with Mankins and Kaczur brought in to compete for a job, but we also know the NEP grade everybody, draft prospects, free agents, and roster regulars, the same in order to have as consistent a standard for comparison as they can manage. It makes more sense to me, that Coach Scarnecchia and BB developed a strategy to replace Joe Andruzzi "a year early" and drafted two players who graded out higher than Hochstein to compete for the job, with Russ available as a proven 'baseline' for the position.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't know who *lost* the starting job, but it's my guess that Logan Mankins was not expected to start at left guard his first year. He was drafted as a tackle and, even if the Patriots intended all along to convert him to guard, I'd have been very surprised if they planned for him to start immediately. If I'm right, whoever was in the starting left guard slot (Russ Hochstein?) got beaten out in camp, I guess.

The job was open because Joe Andruzzi had signed with the Browns. Mankins, pretty much, won the job the 1st day of camp. Mankins was drafted as a T/G candidate.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Koppen was better at doing the shotgun snap...

Hopefully without revisiting another thread's topic, the under center/shotgun trends of 2007/2008 bode well for Koppen.

 

[DaBruinz]

In 03 : didn't the first game push the starting safety opposite Harrion OUT and Eugene Wilson went IN ?

Antwan Harris had been given the job after Milloy was cut. His poor play against Buffalo is what forced Wilson to be considered there. If memory serves me correctly (ok, I went and looked it up), Harris didn't survive the Buffalo game as the starter.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The job was open because Joe Andruzzi had signed with the Browns. Mankins, pretty much, won the job the 1st day of camp. Mankins was drafted as a T/G candidate.

The job was also open because NE declined to come close to matching Cleveburgh's offer, indicating a plan to move in a new direction.

 

[Mike the Brit]

It could be argued that Hochstein was the 'default' LG with Mankins and Kaczur brought in to compete for a job, but we also know the NEP grade everybody, draft prospects, free agents, and roster regulars, the same in order to have as consistent a standard for comparison as they can manage. It makes more sense to me, that Coach Scarnecchia and BB developed a strategy to replace Joe Andruzzi "a year early" and drafted two players who graded out higher than Hochstein to compete for the job, with Russ available as a proven 'baseline' for the position.

That sounds likely. Whether RH "had" the job or not before Mankins took over in camp is impossible to say.

 

[farn]

There is only one problem with your thought. Wilson was not used at Safety during training camp. Milloy was cut because only he and Law hadn't already renegotiated their contracts and the Pats were over the cap by 2 million because of injuries. They needed one person whom they could cut to gain that 2 million in space. And that was Milloy or Law. And, with Rodney on Board, Milloy was the more easily replaceable.

Da is right... Wilson became the starter at safety, but wasn't being "groomed" to be the starter at safety. It was more out of need. Then... Wilson was no longer starting a few years later. So he was a "replacer" and a "replacee".

 

[spacecrime]

I think there is more in BB's equation than just how a player looks in TC and
pre-season.
IMO, Yes open competition but
1. a player has to show he IS by far better than a starter.

Well, yeah. If a player shows he is not better than the starter, why would he take the job????????

2. BB has to feel the player's lack of experience will not be an issue.

This hardly ever happens. Experience counts a lot!

For example I do not see Brace replacing Wilfork at the get go.
Even if he is very good he won't start in place of Vince. He would
sub in and may get more snaps as the year progresses. Then next year
BB makes the transition.

Yes, of course. Part of a player being better than another player is consistency and play in actual games.

BUT, if Wilfork is ineffective and every time Brace comes in to give Wilfork a breathe he plays lights out, then youk are wrong: Brace will start in place of Wilfork.

It's highly unlikely to happen, but if BB feels the team is stronger with player A that player B, he will go with player A and not worry about it.

2.
If Hobbs was still on board I bet he WOULD be starting.

I don't understand this logic. If Hobbs is better than the incumbent CBs, then he wouldn't have been traded for a couple fo fifth round picks when the team already had a dozen picks.

 

[JR4]

.......
I don't understand this logic. If Hobbs is better than the incumbent CBs, then he wouldn't have been traded for a couple fo fifth round picks when the team already had a dozen picks.

Well you are right. But if Hobbs was not traded I believe he would be
starting. He was pretty good. I feel Hobbs being traded wasn't because
he was bad but because BB had other players that had similar skills as Hobbs. IMO
The new experienced players add more physical play to the mix which
BB probably saw as a necessity.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Well you are right. But if Hobbs was not traded I believe he would be
starting. He was pretty good. I feel Hobbs being traded wasn't because
he was bad but because BB had other players that had similar skills as Hobbs. IMO
The new experienced players add more physical play to the mix which
BB probably saw as a necessity.

Hobbs woulda started at first because he knows the system better. That's not to say that a newbie vet might not have displaced him soon thereafter. Hobbsie went because BB realized he'd seen his upside and BB felt that he would not be able to re-sign him at a proper 'value' cap cost.

 

[dhamz]

I respectfully disagree.

There were no questions that if Belichick hadn't traded Vrabel, he would be the starting outside linebacker in 2009. They don't even play the same side/position.

I think there is little question that if Vrabel wasn't traded (for nothing by the way) he was going to be cut the very same weekend.