Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[Koma]

Michael Sam asking God "Please don't let the Dolphins draft me"

If Sam and Incognito end up on the same team next year (Dolphins or somewhere else), HBO will do everything possible to get that team on Hard Knocks.

 

[goheels22002]

I note that Seymour was fined $30,000 for punching Richie Incognito. Money well spent! :rocker:

Richard Seymour is precisely the kind of guy who would stand up to Incognito, and would have gotten him kicked off the Patriots if they'd brought him in. I cannot imagine Incognito making it out of training camp on a Patriots team with Dante Scarnecchia, Matt Light, Stephen Neal, Logan Mankins, Vince Wilfork, Willie McGinest, Roosevelt Colvin, etc, etc, - men who would never be intimidated by him physically nor stand for his behavior and who would get him cut.

 

[Wheelman]

The one thing I'll say about this is, Martin didn't know how to stand up for himself. Who knows what was going on inside his head. I'm sure he tried whatever he could to try to get his needs met. But didn't know how to do so effectively. I see a few people saying, well why didn't he stand up for himself? Well I guess you would have to be in his shoes to understand? Nobody deserves what Martin endured, or what the trainer endured. It may seem simple to you or me from the outside looking in, but it wasn't for him obviously. I think that's the key thing. I think it's unfair to be giving Martin a hard time over why he didn't just stand up for himself.

Incognito tends to cross the line. Nobody told him to knock it off. If nobody says anything he's going to keep doing it.

He was a captain, and one of the leaders of the O-line? And then add in the o-line coach? Sounds like the perfect storm to me.

Where the hell were the other players? Were they afraid of any consequences of speaking out about the treatment? or did they think it was ok?

This all reeks of bad leadership. Captains, front office, coaches, owner. What a piss poor job by them.

 

[goheels22002]

The amazing thing to me is that it seems like Incognito was the leader of the offensive line followed and his second Pouncey. I can not imagine BB giving those two individuals that kind of leadership on the Pats. It is not like this is the first time Ingonito has had problems. I question whether Philbin can survive that lack in judgment.

In response to those claiming the harrasers didn't know what they were doing. The "fine book" the players kept that Incognito wanted destroyed (after he fined himself for driving Martin out) completely undermines any credibility of that argument IMO.

I disagree with those saying people just don't understand this behavior is part of locker room culture. The problem here, in my opinion, is that Philbin left someone in charge who had no clue about boundaries and limits. The problem with Philbin's poor decision is that the league will have no choice but to shut everything down. I agree those that say something is lost when everyone goes PC. But if a head coach is going to leave someone like Incongito in charge (with his history!) I don't think the league has much of a choice.

Dolphins line coach Jim Turner could face stern punishment - CBSSports.com

It looks like the ringleader who set the tone for Pouncey and Incognito is OL coach Jim Turner. This thing is looking a lot like Bountygate.

 

[WhoaDirty]

Am up to page 26 of the report now and the only thing that MIGHT, MIGHT be a concern to so far is the stuff with the Assistant Trainer. Even here, I can see where lines could be blurred and unintentionally crossed.

If you don't think the incidents with the trainer were flat out despicable, you MIGHT, MIGHT be a sociopath.

 

[Danger Zone]

While not perfect..

I love my Patriots..

 

[Demosthenes]

If you don't think the incidents with the trainer were flat out despicable, you MIGHT, MIGHT be a sociopath.

I'm saying that it's not as cut and dry as one might think.


Like I said, I have a friend who is Korean. We joke around and insult each other all the time. He calls me Roundeye, Whiteboy, Cracker, etc. I call him Asian Redneck, Gook, Ricer, etc. We both know that neither of us are racist nor is race an issue.


So, IF Incognito thought that they were friends, I could see where he wouldn't think twice about his language.

 

[robbomango]

I'm saying that it's not as cut and dry as one might think.


Like I said, I have a friend who is Korean. We joke around and insult each other all the time. He calls me Roundeye, Whiteboy, Cracker, etc. I call him Asian Redneck, Gook, Ricer, etc. We both know that neither of us are racist nor is race an issue.


So, IF Incognito thought that they were friends, I could see where he wouldn't think twice about his language.

That's a willing participant, the trainer was most likely an unwilling participant, big difference. It's not hard to spot an unwilling participant, Richie either couldn't or could and did his thing anyway. If you called your friend those names and he just laughed awkwardly and never replied would you do that over and over again? I don't think so, that would be cruel and that's what Richie did.

 

[Demosthenes]

That's a willing participant, the trainer was most likely an unwilling participant, big difference. It's not hard to spot an unwilling participant, Richie either couldn't or could and did his thing anyway.
If you called your friend those names and he just laughed awkwardly and never replied would you do that over and over again? I don't think so, that would be cruel and that's what Richie did.

Actually, according to this report, it can be hard to spot an "unwilling participant". We don't know how the assistant responded at the time.

 

[robbomango]

Actually, according to this report, it can be hard to spot an "unwilling participant". We don't know how the assistant responded at the time.

When you go to work tomorrow you know who you can and cannot joke in certain ways with I'm sure. Richie knew he was irritating people admittedly, breaking Jmart? or the guy that was on the verge of crying 24/7?

He lacks good judgment and takes things to far. Under good leadership he's probably a great teammate but as a leader he sucks from the look of things.

 

[Afam]

I think we can all agree that

a.) Incognito is a jerk
b.) guys talk smack in men's locker rooms
c.) if you are easily offended, you will be offended by what is said by most guys when they are not within earshot of their mothers, wife(s) (Mormon joke), girlfriends, or any other woman they hope to bed, etc.
d.) Martin could have handled this better, he should have gone to one of the captains, or maybe just turned around and punched Incognito in the face.
e.) The Dolphins are a mess! and for the 14th year in a row, not finish the season with a better record than the Pats!


Look, I don't have a sister, but I'm pretty sure I can speak for everyone that does, that at not time would the comment "we are going to run a train on your sister" would be welcomed or apprecaited. That is over any line you wish to draw.

Gee I think we are all "shocked" to know that they guy who was Aaron "the butcher" Hernandez's BFF in college is also a jerk.

Overall, this is bad news for the Phins, Incognito I think is done in the NFL. Someone might give Martin a shot, but he doesn't seem to have the stones for the position. Everyone has different life experiences and that brings different levels of sensitivity to certain things. You can not assign the same expected level of sensitivity to everyone for everything.

Now in the immortal words of that drug dealing POS who deserved every inch of the beating he so richly deserved...

Can't we all get along?

I disagree. Martin can and should be allowed to play in the NFL. Not everyone likes other people to joke about their family members especially in a negative way. The solution is quite simple, the players should leave the guy alone. He is paid to play football and not joke around with his teammates.

That is what I hate about the NFL. A bunch of fake tough guys trying to act tough. A player doesn't have to joke with their teammates to be a tough guy. They don't have to go through hazing to prove how tough of a guy there really are. A player doesn't have to allow other teammates to make crude remarks about them or their family members.

 

[Afam]

What Incognito said to Martin were not a Jokes , but rather hateful comments disguised as jokes. Richie is a bully pure and simple.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Incognito and the rest of his cohorts are awful people! They used immature, profane, ugly, intimidating language about a fellow teammate (and the rest of the team supported these awful people). We need a better society than this. We need a society where we all stand up and say "no!" to profane and careless behavior in a lockeroom. And not only will our society be the better for it but when these scientifically enhanced freakishly large sized men cause bones to be broken, muscles to be ripped, flesh to be torn, limbs to be contorted and brains to be traumatized on the playing field, boy oh boy can we now root for them doing that with a sense of righteous pride that we made the world a better place, a place where a lockeroom full of awful medical traumas contains not a single hurt feeling.
Working towards a better society via outrage at bad language and hurt feelings while you support/follow a sport of such immense violence?? You just have got to be kidding me....

 

[Fixit]

Yeah, it's just bad language and hurt feelings.

Whoever called this a litmus test for terrible people couldn't have been more right. Some of you are just ****ty humans, and I'm glad I don't actually know you.

 

[Fixit]

And another thing ... this thing about it being okay because it's an NFL locker room filled with the manliest of men is so stupid it hurts. The U.S. freakin' military trains (mostly) men to kill in a variety of ways, and they don't put up with harassment. Period. It's part of training, there are constant refresher courses. So get over this notion that an NFL locker room is exempt from laws, or even decency, because they have a highly aggressive job.

 

[dizi24]

And another thing ... this thing about it being okay because it's an NFL locker room filled with the manliest of men is so stupid it hurts. The U.S. freakin' military trains (mostly) men to kill in a variety of ways, and they don't put up with harassment. Period. It's part of training, there are constant refresher courses. So get over this notion that an NFL locker room is exempt from laws, or even decency, because they have a highly aggressive job.

I'm so sick of the "NFL locker room" excuse. First, no one says why this matters. Why do you tolerate behavior because it's an "NFL locker room?" Frankly, there are plenty of people who want to be in the NFL just to earn a paycheck to support their family, and maybe don't want to hear about how much their sister squirts. But Martin, who maybe finds this behavior rivulting and deeply upsetting, just had to sit there and take it if he wants to play in the NFL?

Second, it's not even needed. The Bruins, who I think are one of the best "teams" in sports, as far as what it means to exemplify team attributes, have rules that go far beyond most middle schools soccer teams rules. You can't even call rookies "rookies" because Chara finds it demeaning. That PC rules probably does a million times more to bring teams together than Incognitos crap.

Also, this is not just an NFL locker room. It's pretty clear that a lot of this goes beyond what happens in many locker rooms. No one wants to tell the NFL to make it's workplace like a hospital or a bank or an educational setting. There's. difference between holding NFL locker rooms to a lower standard, and holding them to no standard at all

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Yeah, it's just bad language and hurt feelings.

Whoever called this a litmus test for terrible people couldn't have been more right. Some of you are just ****ty humans, and I'm glad I don't actually know you.

You're upset that a player in an NFL lockroom used profanity and callous disregard for another players feelings/sense of well being. So your response to someone with a differing view point on that is to describe them with a callous profanity? Wow....

To your other post regarding the military.........you're badly wrong. The Corps' boot camp contains intimidation and profanity (and thank god for the Marines). But please don't let being ridiculously wrong on that point get in the way of your certain righteousness......

 

[Kontradiction]

That's right, internet warriors. Jonathan Martin, who played in the trenches as an offensive linemen in one of the most physically demanding sports on Earth, is a huge *****. I bet you all could do what he did week in and week out for years. You know who else is a *****? Junior Seau. Couldn't take the pain that all us internet warriors would just shrug off in a second.

What's ironic is that you're trying to call out "internet tough guys"... wait for it... over the internet.

:bricks:

I say that the Dolphins haven't had a winning season since 2008 - not once in Incognito's time with the team. So it's hard to see where expending time and energy on "immature and sick senses of humor" with the coaches and targeted at teammates and trainers is the direction you want to go here. Just because players didn't step forward to defend Martin does not justify any of this, especially when the position coach who controls your snap count, and probably your job is in on it.

And never once in five seasons with the Rams did they have a winning record. Incognito got cut by Steve Spagnuolo for insubordination on the field during a game.

This guy is a loser. He has never experienced a winning record in the NFL.

Remember Bountygate? The coaches were in on that, too. Players are going to go along with the behavior that helps them keep their six- and seven-figure jobs.

1. Never being on a team with a winning record should not fall entirely at the feet of Incognito. Using that logic, that's pretty much like saying that Fred Jackson has never been on a team with a winning record, so he's a loser. Never mind the fact that a lot of guys on this forum have wanted Jackson on this team for years.

2. I'm not using the fact that the players didn't defend Martin as a means of excusing the behavior. What I'm showing is that this ball busting may not have been as mean spirited as you think. I have a core group of friends that tosses around those kind of insults like candy (as I do with them), but it's not meant in a hurtful way. I have other friends where we're not on that level with one another just yet. I have black friends that I'm comfortable with using their race as a way to bust their balls while they use my Irish heritage as a way to bust mine. I have other black friends where I wouldn't even think of doing that. It's all about the company you keep at that time. Instead of letting Incognito know that he wasn't cool with it or breaking his face, Martin joined in under the guise of trying to fit in. As for the Dolphins' OL, they seem to be a tight knit group and this behavior seemed to be accepted in that locker room except for a couple of guys that are mentioned in the report.

3. Bountygate is irrelevant here. As for Martin, if you truly believe that this is wrong, then you should lay some blame at his feet as well. If he truly believed and knew that this was "wrong", and he did it just to fit in, then that is despicable. So what is it? It can only be one way or another. You can condemn Incognito for being a bully and a psychopath while, at the same time, excusing Martin because he was "just trying to fit in".

And another thing ... this thing about it being okay because it's an NFL locker room filled with the manliest of men is so stupid it hurts. The U.S. freakin' military trains (mostly) men to kill in a variety of ways, and they don't put up with harassment. Period. It's part of training, there are constant refresher courses. So get over this notion that an NFL locker room is exempt from laws, or even decency, because they have a highly aggressive job.

I LOL'ed at this. You had a solid thing going until this post. Have you ever met servicemen? How many of them do you know? They bust balls with one another MUCH worse than this. As a matter of fact, most of them that I have met make this look tame. DI's and gunnies do the same thing and used to do it much, much worse before "bullying" became the issue du jour.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm so sick of the "NFL locker room" excuse. First, no one says why this matters. Why do you tolerate behavior because it's an "NFL locker room?" Frankly, there are plenty of people who want to be in the NFL just to earn a paycheck to support their family, and maybe don't want to hear about how much their sister squirts. But Martin, who maybe finds this behavior rivulting and deeply upsetting, just had to sit there and take it if he wants to play in the NFL?

Second, it's not even needed. The Bruins, who I think are one of the best "teams" in sports, as far as what it means to exemplify team attributes, have rules that go far beyond most middle schools soccer teams rules. You can't even call rookies "rookies" because Chara finds it demeaning. That PC rules probably does a million times more to bring teams together than Incognitos crap.

Also, this is not just an NFL locker room. It's pretty clear that a lot of this goes beyond what happens in many locker rooms. No one wants to tell the NFL to make it's workplace like a hospital or a bank or an educational setting. There's. difference between holding NFL locker rooms to a lower standard, and holding them to no standard at all

That's just the thing. He didn't have to sit there and take it. He didn't have to join in either. As I said in my last post, if you condemn this behavior as wrong, and if you're arguing that Martin knew it was wrong, then doing it back "just to fit in" is absolutely vile.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're upset that a player in an NFL lockroom used profanity and callous disregard for another players feelings/sense of well being. So your response to someone with a differing view point on that is to describe them with a callous profanity? Wow....

To your other post regarding the military.........you're badly wrong. The Corps' boot camp contains intimidation and profanity (and thank god for the Marines). But please don't let being ridiculously wrong on that point get in the way of your certain righteousness......

Exactly. My father is a Marine, my uncle was a Marine, I have two cousins that are Marines, and I've worked, known, and am still friends with several of them. They all bust balls. They all put down using race and sexual innuendo on a consistent basis. Where the OP of that post was going, I have no idea. It's pretty clear that he's just reading press statements and taking them as fact with little to no real world experience with servicemen. Military servicemen, especially Marines, are some of the harshest people I've ever been around when it comes to busting their friends' balls. At the same time, if that friend was in a fight or needed help, those same servicemen would absolutely be the first one to help.