Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution

[JSn]

Let me start by admitting that I'm not a great X & O's guy yet (working on it and you guys help a lot) and that life's a little hazy right now as we're dealing with a death in the family. That aside, I'm pretty sure this will make sense.

If not, I'll earn my single gold star that is most assuredly coming.

There are scheme problems, but last weeks ****-punch ending ought to have the staff fixing those aggressively. That loss wasn't all scheme, but that opened the door, imo. This thread isn't about that, however.

We have some injuries nagging our D-Line. This thread isn't really about that.

It's about BB possibly masterminding a major position blending move on D.

Nickle and Dime may not be subpackages for long.

I'm seeing this brilliant blurring of the lines that, once perfected, could be an amazing change in defensive philosophy (or at east the completion of a goal).

We're seeing Vince, an NT playing DE. That's not a real common thing as far as I know. NT to DT sure, but DE? That alone has to leave opposing coaches thinking: is Vince going to be on the end or in the middle?

Then you're seeing DE's playing linebacker or vice-versa. TBC and Burgess being great examples. Green figures into this to a degree, depending how you view certain formations.

The biggest thing, though, is the extension of the Tank Williams experiment.

Didn't work with him, but McGowan's coming out and some of the aggression we're seeing by our DB's has me calling them "Linebackers in Safeties Clothes."

I really think Arrington and maybe even Lockett could figure into this mix by next year, especially Arrington. He's fast and is destructive on ST's.

Don't get me wrong, I know a Rodney type of ILB/Safety is common in the 3-4 and subs, but we're seeing numerous guys who have decent closing speed and ball-hawking skills who are also MIGHTY physical: Bodden, Meriweather, Chung, McGowan and Springs are all pretty physical guys. I think Butler fits here, but his body control playing receivers is pretty impressive for a rookie and I think he's working to find the balance of tough play and keeping clean of PI calls.

Imagine a scheme that is 2-3-6 but is actually almost pure speed, still having the power to punish the ball carrier and where you can rotate in fresh edge rushers almost every series? A scheme where you're not sure if you're looking at a linebacker or a safety, an LB or a DE half the time?

I think we're close. Health and toughness playing in, this Defense could be VERY close to fixing it's second-half woes and being the fastest/toughest D in the game. Tomorrow will say a lot. We CAN win by a lot of points and I hope Maroney is still gunning for the EZ with 90 seconds on the clock and a 24 point lead.

K, I need to sleep. Maybe I'll read this in the morning and wish I could delete it, haha.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Most of these are just products of transitioning in and out from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and vice versa. BB has done this before, specifically in 2001. Other teams do it as well. Let me try to answer these one at a time...

We're seeing Vince, an NT playing DE. That's not a real common thing as far as I know. NT to DT sure, but DE? That alone has to leave opposing coaches thinking: is Vince going to be on the end or in the middle.

A NT is technically a DT in 3-4. Vince was more or less lining up as a DE in that game because of two reasons. The first being that the Dolphins like to run to the right. The second being that they were doing it with success. Since Seymour departed, that's been the weak link for our defensive line in the run game. BB put his big body there to try to put that to an end in that game. That's never happened before and I don't think it will happen again, given the results (Pat White ripping off a huge run).

Then you're seeing DE's playing linebacker or vice-versa. TBC and Burgess being great examples. Green figures into this to a degree, depending how you view certain formations.

The product of running said hybrid. TBC and Burgess are 4-3 defensive ends. When we transition into that formation, that's where they will be. Mostly for pass rushing purposes. When we go into a 3-4, they will line up as OLBs. Again, this is common and BB has used formations like this before.

The biggest thing, though, is the extension of the Tank Williams experiment.

Didn't work with him, but McGowan's coming out and some of the aggression we're seeing by our DB's has me calling them "Linebackers in Safeties Clothes."

Love McGowan. He is a hard hitting safety and is a good replacement for Rodney Harrison in our system. Some view him as a placeholder for Chung who is aggressive as well, but I would love to see both of them used in different formations in the future. Really, though, it's not our safeties that are the weaknesses in the defense. It's more or less the linebackers, IMO. The issues at linebacker are the reason why we are even tinkering with the 4-3 sets.

I really think Arrington and maybe even Lockett could figure into this mix by next year, especially Arrington. He's fast and is destructive on ST's.

Hopefully they show enough to start next season. However, don't be so sure about Arrington. He looks like the type of guy that just sits on special teams. He is very good at what he does, though.

Don't get me wrong, I know a Rodney type of ILB/Safety is common in the 3-4 and subs, but we're seeing numerous guys who have decent closing speed and ball-hawking skills who are also MIGHTY physical: Bodden, Meriweather, Chung, McGowan and Springs are all pretty physical guys. I think Butler fits here, but his body control playing receivers is pretty impressive for a rookie and I think he's working to find the balance of tough play and keeping clean of PI calls.

Imagine a scheme that is 2-3-6 but is actually almost pure speed, still having the power to punish the ball carrier and where you can rotate in fresh edge rushers almost every series? A scheme where you're not sure if you're looking at a linebacker or a safety, an LB or a DE half the time?

I think we're close. Health and toughness playing in, this Defense could be VERY close to fixing it's second-half woes and being the fastest/toughest D in the game. Tomorrow will say a lot. We CAN win by a lot of points and I hope Maroney is still gunning for the EZ with 90 seconds on the clock and a 24 point lead.

Yep. Defense is coming along and they are very fast. That's the reason why the hits are little more jarring this season than they have been in the past season or so. But it is still very much a work in progress. I mentioned in another thread that I wanted Foote for this defense and I still would love to see what he could have done under BB's guidance. But we didn't get him. I have to believe that this offseason, if we go defense in the draft, it's going to be focused on the linebackers. It is getting younger, but it's still very much a work in progress.

And I'm very sorry to hear about the loss man. Hope everything turns out okay for you and your's.

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Sorry about your loss, Jsn. My condolences go to you.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

My condolences on your loss.

BB has always been looking to be flexible on defense. His focus used to be on Linebacker, but of late he's been trying to do more with Safety. Chung is coming along well, Meriweather, McGowan, & Chung are all bringing more speed to the secondary, all three are proving to be excellent in coverage, and both McGowan and Chung bring some beef. Sanders is still a solid Safety, though his speed disadvantage has moved him to fourth on the depth chart.

My one concern is Meriweather seems to miss tackles more often than I like.

If this defense has a weakness it's the edge rush. TBC has been fair, but he needs more help from the other side.

Getting Green and Warren back healthy will help with collapsing the pocket and Warren is a key run stopper for the DL.

 

[MaxVonDoom]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

hmmmm....will this revolution be televised?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

BB has always been looking to be flexible on defense. His focus used to be on Linebacker, but of late he's been trying to do more with Safety. Chung is coming along well, Meriweather, McGowan, & Chung are all bringing more speed to the secondary, all three are proving to be excellent in coverage, and both McGowan and Chung bring some beef. Sanders is still a solid Safety, though his speed disadvantage has moved him to fourth on the depth chart.

I've mostly chalked that up to lack of availability at the LB position based on where we've picked in the draft. When we had a solid draft pick with an ideal linebacker prospect available, we've taken it. Fact of the matter is that it's better to get good value for a safety later on in the draft. I want to see someone next to Mayo that is more around his prototype next season, but I have a feeling that we won't be seeing that until 2011. Who knows, though? Maybe there will be a free agent coming out this offseason that will be the apple of BB's eye. And I do agree about our edge rush on the other side of TBC as well.

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

BB has always been looking to be flexible on defense. His focus used to be on Linebacker, but of late he's been trying to do more with Safety.

My take on it is that I am not sure there is a "defensive revolution" because everything under the sun has been tried, in the 129 years that football has been around.

BB has placed priority on flexibility, that is true, but he also likes playing to the strength of what we have on D. If it is the beginning of a new era of defensive philosophy, so be it, but I think BB is more interested in exploiting the strengths of his defense.

This ties into the problems we've had with our defense since the shutdown days of Law, Milloy, Samuel, etc.; when we then started to migrate towards that dreaded bend but don't break defense.

However, the cornerbacks that we have now are so much better, so I hope that there will be the day that we will never ever see any more of that $*#& cover four.

 

[DarrylS]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Thought that BB was morphing into a hybrid D when he brought Tank Williams on board... still see something going on here, would not be surprising if he continues to utilize draft picks for more "Chung types"....

One thing that comes to mind is Lawrence Taylor, when he came on board the LB coach of the giants was BB, he achieved much of his stardom and MVP when BB became the defensive coordinator... if you read the book "Blind Side" it speaks to the emergence of the Left Tackle, due to the influence of LT... even though Parcells gets most of the credit, BB had to figure out how to maximize his talents...

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Jsn, sorry for your loss. You and your family are in our prayers.


Great write up though, thought provoking. it's all about disguising the intent...

 

[signbabybrady]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

My condolences on your loss.

BB has always been looking to be flexible on defense. His focus used to be on Linebacker, but of late he's been trying to do more with Safety. Chung is coming along well, Meriweather, McGowan, & Chung are all bringing more speed to the secondary, all three are proving to be excellent in coverage, and both McGowan and Chung bring some beef. Sanders is still a solid Safety, though his speed disadvantage has moved him to fourth on the depth chart.

My one concern is Meriweather seems to miss tackles more often than I like.

If this defense has a weakness it's the edge rush. TBC has been fair, but he needs more help from the other side.

Getting Green and Warren back healthy will help with collapsing the pocket and Warren is a key run stopper for the DL.

Sorry to hear JSN......Please accept our condolences.

Watching this "D" mature this year has been a lot of fun and brings hope for the rest of the way........seening BB mix coverages and adding db's, moving DL's is always a blast.


There is no question in my mind that adding Green, Warren, TBC & the suprprising Ninkovich last Sunday night would have meant 3 TD's do not happen in the 4th.

 

[lurker1965]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Let me start by admitting that I'm not a great X & O's guy yet (working on it and you guys help a lot) and that life's a little hazy right now as we're dealing with a death in the family. That aside, I'm pretty sure this will make sense.

If not, I'll earn my single gold star that is most assuredly coming.

There are scheme problems, but last weeks ****-punch ending ought to have the staff fixing those aggressively. That loss wasn't all scheme, but that opened the door, imo. This thread isn't about that, however.

We have some injuries nagging our D-Line. This thread isn't really about that.

It's about BB possibly masterminding a major position blending move on D.

Nickle and Dime may not be subpackages for long.

I'm seeing this brilliant blurring of the lines that, once perfected, could be an amazing change in defensive philosophy (or at east the completion of a goal).

We're seeing Vince, an NT playing DE. That's not a real common thing as far as I know. NT to DT sure, but DE? That alone has to leave opposing coaches thinking: is Vince going to be on the end or in the middle?

Then you're seeing DE's playing linebacker or vice-versa. TBC and Burgess being great examples. Green figures into this to a degree, depending how you view certain formations.

The biggest thing, though, is the extension of the Tank Williams experiment.

Didn't work with him, but McGowan's coming out and some of the aggression we're seeing by our DB's has me calling them "Linebackers in Safeties Clothes."

I really think Arrington and maybe even Lockett could figure into this mix by next year, especially Arrington. He's fast and is destructive on ST's.

Don't get me wrong, I know a Rodney type of ILB/Safety is common in the 3-4 and subs, but we're seeing numerous guys who have decent closing speed and ball-hawking skills who are also MIGHTY physical: Bodden, Meriweather, Chung, McGowan and Springs are all pretty physical guys. I think Butler fits here, but his body control playing receivers is pretty impressive for a rookie and I think he's working to find the balance of tough play and keeping clean of PI calls.

Imagine a scheme that is 2-3-6 but is actually almost pure speed, still having the power to punish the ball carrier and where you can rotate in fresh edge rushers almost every series? A scheme where you're not sure if you're looking at a linebacker or a safety, an LB or a DE half the time?

I think we're close. Health and toughness playing in, this Defense could be VERY close to fixing it's second-half woes and being the fastest/toughest D in the game. Tomorrow will say a lot. We CAN win by a lot of points and I hope Maroney is still gunning for the EZ with 90 seconds on the clock and a 24 point lead.

K, I need to sleep. Maybe I'll read this in the morning and wish I could delete it, haha.

If you have a two score lead early in the first, MAYBE. Otherwise you are inviting the other team to line up in an I and run. Of course many lack a true FB now, but an unbalanced line or back up lineman at FB is probably enough.

Edit: I'm a moron. I got caught up in the football and missed the big part. My condolences.

 

[bigfandan]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

God bless you JSn.

I would learn from San Diego and Pittsburg's D. In my view they do two things better than us. One is creating pressure upfront. Looking back at Indy game, a team like Indy can bring huge pressure by rushing 4 (Freeny and Mathis are scary) the entire game. Our DL had no pressure (and Bill doesn't dare to blitz manning, so manning had all day to operate). Giants defeated us in superbowl with the same formula. SD and Pitts' LBs are without doubt better than ours. We have a very weak front. We can't be successful in playoff if we don't address this. Too many quality QB playmakers in playoff (big ben, rivers, palmer, even Orton, not to mention Mannings) they can pick this defense apart with time (for evidence, see denver game or Indy game). Most of us probably already know this.

The second big difference is size of SD's corner. Big, fast, atheletic. We know Bill likes smaller corners with quickness. But to play well against Manning, I believe bigger and more physical corner is the way to go. Biggest' advantage is the big corners that can run will take away some of manning's throwing lanes, or his favorite throwing lanes. I will elaborate here. Manning's throw is different from many QBs. Unlike Brady, who zips ball into tight spaces, most of Manning's throws are timing passes that fade and tear-drop (to borrow a term) into certain predetermined spots at the right time. If a DB gets to the rythem, he could know when and where to turn to by watching the WR's moves, most often the ball will be there. Now the question is who (CB vs WR) will make the catch and whether the CB can make a play and avoid PI. So a big corner with long reach will have a better chance to get to the relatively slow and fading ball ahead of the receiver by pre-jumping or out-jumping the receiver, while the nimble smaller cb (proto type pats corner), who does not have the height and reach to outright catch the arching fade pass, will merely try to prevent the WR by trying to knock the ball away and at sametime avoid PI calls. The other advantage of a big corner makes it harder for Wayne/Clark to shield the defender with their body. That's how SD were able to pick off 6 of Manning's passes in one game last year. Ty Law, who took lunch money from Manning everytime they meet, was not the biggest big corner (only 6') but he plays bigger with his physicality. He disrubted the receiver from get-go and then based on his reads of the wr, figure where the ball should go and just turn and look for the ball, he can disregard the wr now (as he knows the he can win the ball in a fight against the WR since he plays big and physical; he can abandon the WR earlier and gamble for the ball, as often times with safety help on top) and when he reads correctly and turns, bingo, Manning's soft arching pass is there for picking.

To sum it up, we need better personnel up front, and stronger and bigger corners. Letting go of Seymore was a counter productive move. He would have made a difference big enough for us to win the Indy game. But I would try to snatching as many big and strong corners as we can, via draft and free agency; and then show them Ty Law films.

 

[alvinnf]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Big Nickel......NFL Paradigm shift.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

I've been predicting for several years that Belichick would be switching to a system that basically uses 2 strong safeties. It makes a lot of sense now in terms of how strong and versatile these players are. He's ahead of the curve on this this time. The value of these guys will rise ... the good ones will be earning some major $$$.

 

[bigfandan]

I just read an interesting piece on the Ty Law and physical corner play. My thought was this: could Kraft and other owners (say other defensive teams Pitts, Ravens, Philly) have done more in competition committee to pervent the paradigm shift that clearly disadvantaged us and favor the gunning teams like St Louis and Colts?

In 2003, Law was part of a record-breaking Patriots defense that led the NFL in four key categories: opponents’ points per game (14.9), opponents’ passer rating (56.2), interceptions (29) and passing touchdowns surrendered (11). Law's physical play against some of the game's best receivers prompted the NFL to more strictly enforce the five-yard illegal contact rule on defensive backs after the 2003 season. These enforcement changes, were heavily pushed by Indianapolis Colts GM Bill Polian. In the AFC Championship Game against the Colts, Law intercepted 3 passes from Colts quarterback Peyton Manning, assisting his team to a 24-14 win and their second Super Bowl appearance in 3 years, where they defeated the Carolina Panthers 32-29.

 

[olschool]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Thought that BB was morphing into a hybrid D when he brought Tank Williams on board... still see something going on here, would not be surprising if he continues to utilize draft picks for more "Chung types"....

One thing that comes to mind is Lawrence Taylor, when he came on board the LB coach of the giants was BB, he achieved much of his stardom and MVP when BB became the defensive coordinator... if you read the book "Blind Side" it speaks to the emergence of the Left Tackle, due to the influence of LT... even though Parcells gets most of the credit, BB had to figure out how to maximize his talents...

JSN ; MY condolences on your loss.

The Blind Side is also a good movie, if you can stand Sandra Bullock.

BB is always looking for the next Lawrence Taylor, but those guys don't come along too often. He definitely needs a Ted Johnson type in the middle with Mayo.

Wilfork played on the end to combat Jake Long, Miami's huge left tackle.

BB is always playing musical chairs on defense. Remember the eight linebacker alignment a few years ago ? Madden said he had never seen anything like it.

One thing for sure is, whatever combination finally works, will be copied by the rest of the league.

 

[patsox23]

Re: Theory: We're watching a defensive revolution.

Sorry about your loss, Jsn. My condolences go to you.

What he said. Hope you're muddling through.

 

[mayoclinic]

Jsn,

I'll comment on your post separately, but first, I am devastated to hear about your loss. There's no words for such a situation, but I hope you and your family are holding up as best you can, and our thoughts go with you.

 

[mayoclinic]

Let me start by admitting that I'm not a great X & O's guy yet (working on it and you guys help a lot) and that life's a little hazy right now as we're dealing with a death in the family. That aside, I'm pretty sure this will make sense.

If not, I'll earn my single gold star that is most assuredly coming.

There are scheme problems, but last weeks ****-punch ending ought to have the staff fixing those aggressively. That loss wasn't all scheme, but that opened the door, imo. This thread isn't about that, however.

We have some injuries nagging our D-Line. This thread isn't really about that.

It's about BB possibly masterminding a major position blending move on D.

Nickle and Dime may not be subpackages for long.

I'm seeing this brilliant blurring of the lines that, once perfected, could be an amazing change in defensive philosophy (or at east the completion of a goal).

We're seeing Vince, an NT playing DE. That's not a real common thing as far as I know. NT to DT sure, but DE? That alone has to leave opposing coaches thinking: is Vince going to be on the end or in the middle?

Then you're seeing DE's playing linebacker or vice-versa. TBC and Burgess being great examples. Green figures into this to a degree, depending how you view certain formations.

The biggest thing, though, is the extension of the Tank Williams experiment.

Didn't work with him, but McGowan's coming out and some of the aggression we're seeing by our DB's has me calling them "Linebackers in Safeties Clothes."

I really think Arrington and maybe even Lockett could figure into this mix by next year, especially Arrington. He's fast and is destructive on ST's.

Don't get me wrong, I know a Rodney type of ILB/Safety is common in the 3-4 and subs, but we're seeing numerous guys who have decent closing speed and ball-hawking skills who are also MIGHTY physical: Bodden, Meriweather, Chung, McGowan and Springs are all pretty physical guys. I think Butler fits here, but his body control playing receivers is pretty impressive for a rookie and I think he's working to find the balance of tough play and keeping clean of PI calls.

Imagine a scheme that is 2-3-6 but is actually almost pure speed, still having the power to punish the ball carrier and where you can rotate in fresh edge rushers almost every series? A scheme where you're not sure if you're looking at a linebacker or a safety, an LB or a DE half the time?

I think we're close. Health and toughness playing in, this Defense could be VERY close to fixing it's second-half woes and being the fastest/toughest D in the game. Tomorrow will say a lot. We CAN win by a lot of points and I hope Maroney is still gunning for the EZ with 90 seconds on the clock and a 24 point lead.

K, I need to sleep. Maybe I'll read this in the morning and wish I could delete it, haha.

Great OP.

I'm not sure about "revolution", but I think the defense is clearly evolving. I think this evolution is driven by several things:

1. More and more athletic DLs.
2. More and more teams moving to the 3-4 and competing for 3-4 OLBs.
3. Guys like Mayo and Guyton (and hopefully McKenzie) with terrific speed and range and good size, who can cover a huge amount of territory and do a lot of things.
4. The evolution of the safety position. BB talked about this in an interview at the NFL combine.

I think that what we may see in the future is a base 4-2-5 "big nickel" defense (with Meriweather, McGowan and Chung plus 2 CBs), with only 2 "true" LBs on the field (Mayo and Guyton as the incumbant starters with McKenzie for depth). Additional LB help would be provided by hybrid safety/LBs (Chung and McGowan) moving up as needed, and hybrid DE's who can stand up and move back into coverage and pursuit as needed. The middle would be plugged by 2 DTs, such as Warren and Wilfork, similar to how the Vikings have Kevin and Pat Williams, with Wright, Brace and Pryor providing tremendous depth as well as versatility to play 3-4 and big 4-3 schemes.

Right now we don't have athletic enough DE's to play this kind of scheme. TBC and Burgess just don't have the speed, range, pursuit capability, ability to drop back into coverage, or strength at the edge to do this effectively. But someone like Julius Peppers or Terrell Suggs could do all of those things. And while those guys are likely out of reach, there's a ton of talent coming down the pipe with the potential to do those things: Derrick Morgan, Carlos Dunlap, Greg Hardy, Everson Griffen, Jason Pierre-Paul, Greg Romeus, Jeremy Beal and Austen Lane this year all have length, strength, speed and athleticism. Robert Quinn (eligible in 2011) may even be better than all of them. Sergio Kindle, Jerry Hughes and Eric Norwood are other guys coming out this year who can do a lot of things. I'd like to see BB take at least 2 of those guys.

I think BB is realizing the benefits of having a fast, athletic, aggressive defense. Mayo is taking over as the leader of the defense, and we've already shown speed and playmaking capability which we haven't had since 2003-2004. Imagine how good that defense could be with more athletic playmakers up front. Such a scheme would maximize the number of playmakers on the field and would provide tremendous pressure and disruption up front, with tremendous speed and playmaking capability in the back 7.

From this kind of base, a variety of substitute schemes are readily envisioned: switching to a traditional 3-4 with 3 big guys up front and moving the fast DE's back to 3-4 OLBs; running a big 4-3 with Wilfork or Pryor playing DE, and McKenzie, Mayo and Guyton as the LBs; moving to a 3-2-6 or 2-3-6 with an additional DB; etc.