The Sox win despite Theo !

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Look at both players' careers, and tell me that you're better of with Lugo at SS than Renteria. It's not even close. Now, aside from the fact that Lugo is an inferior player to ER, you have the added atrocity of paying $12 million more for Lugo, at a years longer service, since the Sox paid that sum to ship ER out of town after one season, while signing Lugo for 4 more. There is no way to spin that. As for Drew, his career speaks for itself. He's in no way, shape, or form a 5 year commitment player, at $14 million per. He's a decent player, but those figures are ridiculous for his histroy. How many teams can do that for a #7 hitter in their lineup? Cashman & Theo can do that, other GM's really can't. Don't get me wrong, Drew has skills and is a good ML player. He's just not worth what he got, and only teams like the Sox/Yanks have the luxury of signing them without any real recourse.

Do you understand why I click the "quote" button? It means I'm responding directly to your words. You said "Obviously they weren't signed to underperform, but both of those players were serious question marks before they signed." I pointed out that, though they were question marks, no one questioned that they'd OPS+ better than 105 and 65. None of what you responded with refutes that.

I'm simply pointing out that they both underperformed even the most negative predictions (except for Drew staying relatively healthy). They were both viewed as good players signed to bigger contracts than they were worth. The problem is that neither was a good player last year.

blah blah blah...

How does Billy Beane compete every year? How does Atlanta do it? Minnesota? Do you think any of those teams can afford to spend $70 million on a #6/7 hitter?

Do you even try to understand what I'm saying, or is this just me-vs-you for you? I put forth my theory that the NY and Boston payrolls are the product of needing to compete every year (an admittably big advantage over other teams) and you ignore my words, moving on to irrelevant arguments. Once more, do you understand the purpose of me quoting.

As for Beane, he doesn't compete every year. He's punting this year, collecting talent in exchange for players who will be more expensive soon. Minnesota doesn't compete every year either. It just gets pointed out whenever they do. They have no shot of finishing above third in their division this year after trading away the best pitcher in the game. Is that what we want Theo and cashman doing?

Atlanta doesn't count because they're in the NL and haven't competed the last two years. Their run of 14 straight division titles was simply remarkable and an unfair standard to hold anyone to anyway.

Every year Boston and NY have to compete against the field. Oakland and Cleveland can challenge them one year, followed by Anaheim and Chicago the next and Minnesota and Detroit the year after that. If one of those teams beats NY in each of the years then the media goes nuts over "smaller market" teams beating NY, ignoring the fact that it is three different teams beating one team. Of course a field of 30 has an advantage over the Yankees and Sox.

In a couple years Tampa will be challenging in the East, and we'll hear about them building a small market team and winning "the right way." The media seems to think sucking for 10 years, always drafting in the top 5 and trading for prospects at the deadline, is better than trying to win every year.

 

[Boston Boxer]

Henry went to Theo about Ortiz per Steve Buckley (on WEEI & in print).
Henry was also the guy who wanted Arod the most. He is his favorite
player who he wanted as the face of the Red Sox (per Buckley).

Theo's had big plans for Jeremy Giambi who started the season a starter
while Ortiz was a part time player at the start of the 2003 season.

John Henry is a big roto fan who has acknowleged his love of fantasy
baseball. Arod & Ortiz were players on his 2002 roto team.
This has been confirmed by Buckley and Peter Gammons.

are you trying to tell me that John Henry runs this team like a fantasy team? Did you just seriously say that in your post? We get it, you dont like Theo. quit posting stupidity

 

[Foley]

The name 10-15 better is entirely subjective. Also, the playing field isn't remotely level. Theo is mediocre because he's made lots of high profile signings that have tanked, or have been shipped out of town, with cash, which very few GM's, like maybe one other, can do. I'm not saying Theo is awful (see Jon Daniels, Texas). I'm simply saying that he's average. When you consider the advantage guys like he & Cashman have, and then analyze the overall quality of their moves, that's the conclusion I come to.

Renteria at 9M is a very good contract. As I said before, signing Renteria was not a mistake. The mistake was trading him away after an injury plagued year, and trading him was done when Theo was not in the organization. This was a good signing, and I see nothing wrong with Theo's handling of it.

Clement was certainly a disappointment, but he pitched as expected before suffering a major shoulder injury, so this wasn't a completely poor contract. A bad contract definitely, but teams with lower payrolls have still managed to compete with bigger albatrosses on their roster.

Lugo and Drew were disappointments in their first year, but so was Beckett. The two are overpayed, but so was everyone else signed in the offseason of 2006. They both look like bad signings now, but its far too early to make the statement that they were clearly horrible. If they both have good years in 2008 does that suddenly make Theo a genius?

The jury is still out on Lugo and Drew, but I don't see any contract that would have crippled another organization and ruined their ability to compete. Bad contracts, yes, but none that were so terrible that they could only rebound from because of their payroll.

 

[sdaniels7114]

When you're the GM of a high-revenue team you can afford to make mistakes. You just bury them in a big pile of money. Of course Theo's gonna have more than his fair share of bad moves. The only places he suffers for them is on talk radio and here. Put him in charge of the Royals and he doesn't step so far out onto the limb as much.

btw every time I'm reminded that Gil Mesh is working under a $55 million dollar contract I get a bit shocked. 3x and counting.

 

[Real World]

Do you understand why I click the "quote" button? It means I'm responding directly to your words. You said "Obviously they weren't signed to underperform, but both of those players were serious question marks before they signed." I pointed out that, though they were question marks, no one questioned that they'd OPS+ better than 105 and 65. None of what you responded with refutes that.

I'm simply pointing out that they both underperformed even the most negative predictions (except for Drew staying relatively healthy). They were both viewed as good players signed to bigger contracts than they were worth. The problem is that neither was a good player last year.

.

Did Drew really have that bad a year with respect to his average season? He actually reached 140 games right? What's his career high, 146? You should look at there seasons, and see that they aren't always good ones. How you hand a 5 year committment to a guy who's never played a full season, or knocked in 100 runs is mind boggling. I guess you think that's good business, or a good move by a GM.

 

[Real World]

Do you even try to understand what I'm saying, or is this just me-vs-you for you? I put forth my theory that the NY and Boston payrolls are the product of needing to compete every year (an admittably big advantage over other teams) and you ignore my words, moving on to irrelevant arguments. Once more, do you understand the purpose of me quoting.

As for Beane, he doesn't compete every year. He's punting this year, collecting talent in exchange for players who will be more expensive soon. Minnesota doesn't compete every year either. It just gets pointed out whenever they do. They have no shot of finishing above third in their division this year after trading away the best pitcher in the game. Is that what we want Theo and cashman doing?

Atlanta doesn't count because they're in the NL and haven't competed the last two years. Their run of 14 straight division titles was simply remarkable and an unfair standard to hold anyone to anyway.

Every year Boston and NY have to compete against the field. Oakland and Cleveland can challenge them one year, followed by Anaheim and Chicago the next and Minnesota and Detroit the year after that. If one of those teams beats NY in each of the years then the media goes nuts over "smaller market" teams beating NY, ignoring the fact that it is three different teams beating one team. Of course a field of 30 has an advantage over the Yankees and Sox.

In a couple years Tampa will be challenging in the East, and we'll hear about them building a small market team and winning "the right way." The media seems to think sucking for 10 years, always drafting in the top 5 and trading for prospects at the deadline, is better than trying to win every year.

There payrolls are the result of them being in two of the largest markets in the country, and having Billionaire owners who can charge $90 for a ticket for 81 games, and spend $150 or $200+ million in the process. If you think that Theo & Cash should be excused for making terrible moves, because they are trying to compete, then you win. There is no sense in critiquing their job history if they're just going to be excused.

 

[Real World]

Renteria at 9M is a very good contract. As I said before, signing Renteria was not a mistake. The mistake was trading him away after an injury plagued year, and trading him was done when Theo was not in the organization. This was a good signing, and I see nothing wrong with Theo's handling of it.

Clement was certainly a disappointment, but he pitched as expected before suffering a major shoulder injury, so this wasn't a completely poor contract. A bad contract definitely, but teams with lower payrolls have still managed to compete with bigger albatrosses on their roster.

Lugo and Drew were disappointments in their first year, but so was Beckett. The two are overpayed, but so was everyone else signed in the offseason of 2006. They both look like bad signings now, but its far too early to make the statement that they were clearly horrible. If they both have good years in 2008 does that suddenly make Theo a genius?

The jury is still out on Lugo and Drew, but I don't see any contract that would have crippled another organization and ruined their ability to compete. Bad contracts, yes, but none that were so terrible that they could only rebound from because of their payroll.

I like Renteria as a player. I'd have kept him too. The Sox totally Yankeed on Renteria. Sign/trade for a guy, and then after one year ship him out of town and get 50 cents on the dollar in both value for money spent, and replacement player. The issue with Renteria is that they paid the first season + $12 million (how many teams can do that?) and then signed a guy who nobody wanted as a SS to a $36/4 year contract. Lugo is what he is. Drew is what he is. These are guys with a long history and track record. They are luxuries that only a couple teams can spend $100+ million for. What team can allocate such committments to above average to average players? Teams have to go sign the Ben Brousards & Luis Gonzalez' of the world while the Sox can hand $100+ million to better players like Drew and Lugo. Again though, I'm not saying Theo and Cashman are terrible, or bad GM's, I'm just saying that they're overrated. People make them out to be better than they deserve credit for.


You can't compare Beckett, a guy who is 25 and developing, to players like Lugo & Drew who are more than established.

 

[Foley]

The issue with Renteria is that they paid the first season + $12 million (how many teams can do that?) and then signed a guy who nobody wanted as a SS to a $36/4 year contract.

A lot of teams can do that. The Diamondbacks, with the 5th lowest payroll in baseball, paid $16.4M to pay for players no longer on their team. The Red Sox spent $3M. Go look at the payroll obligations teams have for players they either traded or released. The Red Sox don't spend much more than any other team in this regard.

Lugo is what he is. Drew is what he is. These are guys with a long history and track record. They are luxuries that only a couple teams can spend $100+ million for. What team can allocate such committments to above average to average players?

The Mariners shelled out $114M to Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexson after 2004. Both have been huge disappointments, but the team has gotten better every year despite them failing to live up to expectations. Until this year they were always in the middle of the pack in terms of payroll, yet still managed to survive after giving out significant amounts of money to disappointing players.

The Braves have been paying Mike Hampton $40.5M over the past three years to win 6 games. Despite their highest paid player doing nothing for them, they still manage to field competitive teams.

The Phillies reached the playoffs for the first time in over a decade despite having 27% of their payroll going to three players who did next to nothing (Freddy Garcia, Adam Eaton and Tom Gordon). JD Drew, Julio Lugo, Matt Clement and Edgar Renteria accounted for 24% of the Red Sox payroll in 2007.

Teams succeed all the time while wasting huge sums of money and having several disappointing players on their roster. Teams with much lower payrolls than Boston or New York can make lots of stupid moves and waste huge chunks of payroll and roster space and still manage to compete. The ability to compete after making bad acquisitions is not something singular to teams with high payrolls.

You can't compare Beckett, a guy who is 25 and developing, to players like Lugo & Drew who are more than established.

Ok, then a 36 year old Roger Clemens adjusting in his first year in New York. Or a 28 year old Carlos Beltran adjusting in his first year in New York. Or guys like Varitek at 34 and Lowell at 31 having terrible years, only to follow them up with years in-line with their career norms. Whether it be an adjustment year or an off year, players can inexplicably have years where they don't play like themselves.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Did Drew really have that bad a year with respect to his average season? He actually reached 140 games right? What's his career high, 146? You should look at there seasons, and see that they aren't always good ones. How you hand a 5 year committment to a guy who's never played a full season, or knocked in 100 runs is mind boggling. I guess you think that's good business, or a good move by a GM.

He actually had 100 rbi in '06. You have to say that he never drove in OVER 100 runs when bashing Drew.

J D Drew had played 8 seasons prior to signing with Boston. His OPS+s: 91, 120, 161, 106, 132, 157, 145, and 126. Career average: 128.

I'll forgive the 91 because he was 23. Even including it, that's 2 bad years in 8 seasons (3 in 9 now). 2007 was well below his average season.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

There payrolls are the result of them being in two of the largest markets in the country, and having Billionaire owners who can charge $90 for a ticket for 81 games, and spend $150 or $200+ million in the process. If you think that Theo & Cash should be excused for making terrible moves, because they are trying to compete, then you win. There is no sense in critiquing their job history if they're just going to be excused.

No, I'm not excusing their bad deals. I'm saying that a GM tasked to win every single year shouldn't be held to the same standard (winning with a payroll under $100 million) as a GM who is allowed to rebuild (trading FOR prospects at the deadline, not having to sign short-sighted "win now" contracts, drafting high). It's much easier to compete, rebuild, and then compete again than it is to compete every year.

 

[Real World]

A lot of teams can do that. The Diamondbacks, with the 5th lowest payroll in baseball, paid $16.4M to pay for players no longer on their team. The Red Sox spent $3M. Go look at the payroll obligations teams have for players they either traded or released. The Red Sox don't spend much more than any other team in this regard.The Mariners shelled out $114M to Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexson after 2004. Both have been huge disappointments, but the team has gotten better every year despite them failing to live up to expectations. Until this year they were always in the middle of the pack in terms of payroll, yet still managed to survive after giving out significant amounts of money to disappointing players.

The Braves have been paying Mike Hampton $40.5M over the past three years to win 6 games. Despite their highest paid player doing nothing for them, they still manage to field competitive teams.

The Phillies reached the playoffs for the first time in over a decade despite having 27% of their payroll going to three players who did next to nothing (Freddy Garcia, Adam Eaton and Tom Gordon). JD Drew, Julio Lugo, Matt Clement and Edgar Renteria accounted for 24% of the Red Sox payroll in 2007.

Teams succeed all the time while wasting huge sums of money and having several disappointing players on their roster. Teams with much lower payrolls than Boston or New York can make lots of stupid moves and waste huge chunks of payroll and roster space and still manage to compete. The ability to compete after making bad acquisitions is not something singular to teams with high payrolls.Ok, then a 36 year old Roger Clemens adjusting in his first year in New York. Or a 28 year old Carlos Beltran adjusting in his first year in New York. Or guys like Varitek at 34 and Lowell at 31 having terrible years, only to follow them up with years in-line with their career norms. Whether it be an adjustment year or an off year, players can inexplicably have years where they don't play like themselves.

Foley, you're making my point. The Yankees and Redsox can sign players like that year after year and not suffer. How many times have the Sox & Yankees missed the playoffs over the last 10 years? It's almost a virtual guarantee that each will make it, if not one for sure. How many other teams compete at the same level of expectation? Atlanta? The national league can do it because they don't have the Yanks and Sox to compete with, and shurholtz is a fantastic, was anyway, GM. Ditto for Ryan in Minny. Seattle signs those two players to those contracts & doesn't make the playoffs. The Sox make the playoffs, as do the Yanks, when those players struggle cuz they have a multitude of $10 & $20 million players around them to pick up the slack.

The Beltre deal was dumb btw. Why teams pay players who have one good season, in their contract season, boggles the mind.

 

[Real World]

No, I'm not excusing their bad deals. I'm saying that a GM tasked to win every single year shouldn't be held to the same standard (winning with a payroll under $100 million) as a GM who is allowed to rebuild (trading FOR prospects at the deadline, not having to sign short-sighted "win now" contracts, drafting high). It's much easier to compete, rebuild, and then compete again than it is to compete every year.

No it isn't. It's harder to rebuild. Much harder. I'll take Cashman & Theo's seat 100 times out of 100, over anyone elses in baseball. The results prove that. When you rebuild you're constantly dealing with the unproven, and unknown. You need players to mature at the same time, under ideal service time conditions. Look at Cleveland. They've been rebuilding for how long now? They finally makethe playoffs and look like a contender, and their ace is up for free agency, and they can't keep him. Look at Minny. They've had the best pitcher in baseball, and a decent team for years, but they could never go after any players that would have put them over the top, or in a legitmate position to win. Their is no Manny at $160 million going to the Twins, or even a Matsui for $15 million a year. They can't resign Tori Hunter or Santana, nevermind hand out $36 million to a Lugo, or $70 million to a luxury like Drew. Theo needs an outfielder, he just massively overpays for a decent player like Drew, and tosses him into the 7th spot, since he can already afford to keep Ortiz & Manny in the line up. Lowell a free agent? Pay him. Varitek up this year? Guess what, the Sox can afford to give him 2, 3, even 4 years if they really want to, at whatever dollars they so choose. The Yankees let 3 key players go to free agency (arod opted), why? Cuz it doesn't matter if they have great years and end up overpaying. They can pay Mariano $15 million over 3 at 38 or 39 years old. If he sucks they'll go out and buy another closer in the last year of the deal. The teams that aren't the Redsox and Yankees have it harder. The only benefit those teams enjoy is that the Sox and Yanks are in the same division, which at least gives two other teams a chance. How are you feeling if you're in the AL East? Toronto is desperately trying to compete this year, and last, but what are their likely chances? They have a really good team I think, but as soon as a guy or two goes down, they're toast. They don't have the resources to cover the losses of key players. The Yanks and Sox do.

 

[Foley]

Foley, you're making my point. The Yankees and Redsox can sign players like that year after year and not suffer. How many times have the Sox & Yankees missed the playoffs over the last 10 years? It's almost a virtual guarantee that each will make it, if not one for sure. How many other teams compete at the same level of expectation? Atlanta? The national league can do it because they don't have the Yanks and Sox to compete with, and shurholtz is a fantastic, was anyway, GM. Ditto for Ryan in Minny. Seattle signs those two players to those contracts & doesn't make the playoffs. The Sox make the playoffs, as do the Yanks, when those players struggle cuz they have a multitude of $10 & $20 million players around them to pick up the slack.

But teams like the Phillies and the Mariners didn't make the playoffs in the years leading up to those signings either. The point is that all of those teams managed to improve despite wasting significant sums of money. Miserable contracts didn't halt their ability to contend, despite low payrolls.

4 players is a multitude? Among the teams with a top 10 payroll, only Baltimore has fewer players getting $10M+. The Mariners have more players earning over $10M than the Red Sox. Even teams like Toronto and Houston in the middle of the payroll pack have 4 players earing $10M+. Theo hasn't signed "players like that year after year". In 6 offseasons as a GM he has made 3 signings that could be considered bad (although, as I said, the jury is still out on Drew and Lugo). Thats not a whole heck of a lot when you look at what some others have done.

Generally he has done a very good job of knowing when to resign players or give them extensions (Varitek, Ortiz, Beckett, Wakefield's indentured servitude), and when not to resign players (Pedro, Damon, Mueller). He hasn't just resigned every single FA of significance whenever they reach FA, and then brought in a few more for good measure. Clement, and potentially Drew and Lugo were mistakes, but on a whole his handling of the FA market has been just fine.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

No it isn't. It's harder to rebuild. Much harder...

I was obviously talking within the context of money and payrolls. I quoted a paragraph of yours about payroll. The meat of my reply referred to payroll. For whatever reason you chose to completely remove the final sentence in my post from context.

Whatever, I'm out. With this thread and the Santana one you've morphed away from a knowledgeable Yankee fan into someone who assumably just wants to argue on the internet.

 

[CMcCartney]

With this thread and the Santana one you've morphed away from a knowledgeable Yankee fan into someone who assumably just wants to argue on the internet.

Real World is a Yankees fan? Ah, now I get it.. Add the 'Yankees Cheated' thread to the list.. I think 'knowledgeable Yankee fan' is an oxymoron..

 

[Real World]

But teams like the Phillies and the Mariners didn't make the playoffs in the years leading up to those signings either. The point is that all of those teams managed to improve despite wasting significant sums of money. Miserable contracts didn't halt their ability to contend, despite low payrolls.

4 players is a multitude? Among the teams with a top 10 payroll, only Baltimore has fewer players getting $10M+. The Mariners have more players earning over $10M than the Red Sox. Even teams like Toronto and Houston in the middle of the payroll pack have 4 players earing $10M+. Theo hasn't signed "players like that year after year". In 6 offseasons as a GM he has made 3 signings that could be considered bad (although, as I said, the jury is still out on Drew and Lugo). Thats not a whole heck of a lot when you look at what some others have done.

Generally he has done a very good job of knowing when to resign players or give them extensions (Varitek, Ortiz, Beckett, Wakefield's indentured servitude), and when not to resign players (Pedro, Damon, Mueller). He hasn't just resigned every single FA of significance whenever they reach FA, and then brought in a few more for good measure. Clement, and potentially Drew and Lugo were mistakes, but on a whole his handling of the FA market has been just fine.

So not making the playoffs since 2001 is contending? The Wild Card teams has come out of the AL East? 9 out of 14 overall, and 4 out of the last 5 years. The Yankees & Sox have a tremendous advantage over the other teams in the league, which is a direct benefit to their respective GM's. I'm really surprised you two don't see that. When you critique the jobs of GM's across the league, I'm not sure how that can't be considered in the evaluation. The Sox & Yanks spend $16 million apiece in the draft last year. They're able to pick up top talent in the later rounds that have "signability" issues, which is how the Yanks got Dellan Betances & Austin Jackson in the 8th rounds of drafts.

Let me repeat myself. I never said they both stink, and have done everything wrong as GM's. Each has made some good moves, or done some things right. I'm merely saying that each is revered in the media & league, while each has a significant advantage over everyone else. They're average GM's who are overrated in my estimation. Maybe you and TomGoat disagree.

 

[Real World]

No, I'm not excusing their bad deals. I'm saying that a GM tasked to win every single year shouldn't be held to the same standard (winning with a payroll under $100 million) as a GM who is allowed to rebuild (trading FOR prospects at the deadline, not having to sign short-sighted "win now" contracts, drafting high). It's much easier to compete, rebuild, and then compete again than it is to compete every year.

I was obviously talking within the context of money and payrolls. I quoted a paragraph of yours about payroll. The meat of my reply referred to payroll. For whatever reason you chose to completely remove the final sentence in my post from context.

Whatever, I'm out. With this thread and the Santana one you've morphed away from a knowledgeable Yankee fan into someone who assumably just wants to argue on the internet.

What's your issue TBG? You seem to hold the idea that Cash & Theo should be excused from certain criticisms since they have to compete every year. How can I argue about them having an unfair advantage when someone thinks they should be excused from that which I feel is the advantage?

 

[Foley]

So not making the playoffs since 2001 is contending? The Wild Card teams has come out of the AL East? 9 out of 14 overall, and 4 out of the last 5 years.

The Mariners were contending for both the wildcard and their division for much of last season, and the Phillies and D'Backs did make the playoffs last year. And as far as the Mariners, whether or not you think they were contending, their record has improved significantly every year since the signings. Again, my point is that teams make bad signings all the time and it doesn't hurt their ability to contend, improve or field an otherwise competitive team.

The Yankees & Sox have a tremendous advantage over the other teams in the league, which is a direct benefit to their respective GM's. I'm really surprised you two don't see that. When you critique the jobs of GM's across the league, I'm not sure how that can't be considered in the evaluation.

I never claimed it wasn't an advantage. My point was that Theo has not used a high payroll as an advantage to go out and sign copious amounts of players to bad contracts, and then sign even more to cover up all the bad ones. He has the advantage of signing more expensive players, but most of his signings and non-signings have been very good relative to that of most other GMs. He has not signed all that many players to bad contracts, nor has he fielded a team with a multitude of players making over $10M.

The Sox & Yanks spend $16 million apiece in the draft last year. They're able to pick up top talent in the later rounds that have "signability" issues, which is how the Yanks got Dellan Betances & Austin Jackson in the 8th rounds of drafts.

$16M? They signed no player for over $1M, and only 3 others were signed for over $.5M. I'd like to see the breakdown that shows Boston spending $7M more than they did in 2006, especially with no 1st rounder. But regardless, some of the most aggressive teams in the draft last year were Tampa, Washington, Arizona and KC. Low payroll teams spend a lot of money in the draft because they know if will save them substantial money later on.

 

[mgcolby]

are you trying to tell me that John Henry runs this team like a fantasy team? Did you just seriously say that in your post? We get it, you dont like Theo. quit posting stupidity

I finished reading the thread just to see if anyone responded to that. My buddy at work won his fantasy baseball league the last 3 seasons. Hire him!

 

[cupofjoe1962]

I finished reading the thread just to see if anyone responded to that. My buddy at work won his fantasy baseball league the last 3 seasons. Hire him!

John Henry is alll about stats. He got rich playing the futures market numbers.
He is a known fantasy geek who hired the best stat guy in the business
Bill James.

John Henry's favorite player is Arod because of his fantasy numbers.
This has been confirmed by Gammons, Buckley and Mazerotti.

He also was the guy who went to Theo about David Ortiz.
Theo was busy chasing Jeremy Giambi.