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The Pass rush, are we looking in the wrong place?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Apr 13, 2011.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Common wisdom tells us that we need an edge rusher, either at OLB or at DE, but I would offer that that "wisdom" reflects a different game. A different game is being played in today's NFL. Its a game of 3 step drops and short passes. Its a game that negates some of the outside pass rush by formation and/or play selection.

    Think about it. What is what really hurts our passing game. Its the push up the MIDDLE. Its the INSTANT pressure that a QB feels. Outside pressure can be avoided. A mobile QB like Brady can step up to avoid the outside rush or side step an attacker. Its the pressure that comes from the INSIDE that creates the "happy feet" that causes the QB to throw off his back foot, that creates the inaccuracy that leads to turn overs and missed open receivers

    So while even I contemplate dreams of securing a top OLB and DE in this draft. (I would move heaven and earth to maneuver in the first round to wind up with Watt/Jordan and Kerrigan) But that being said would that really solve the problem. Maybe the way to go in THIS draft for THIS type of offensive attack would be to find the PENETRATER. The guy who can create the quick pressure.

    BTW - I have NO idea who "that guy" might be.

    This isn't a draft topic its a football strategy issue. Maybe BB is setting up a very flexible line up that can create pressure from the inside, I hope to hear some your insights on this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  2. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you need both.
    I agree with your comments about inside pressure, but it is very difficult to achieve.
    On the quick throws the inside guys are really the only ones who can disrupt.
    But the slower developing plays are the ones really impacted by the rush. Again, its easier for an outside rusher to get to the QB, but inside pressure gives the outside rusher more time to get there and outside pressure can flush the QB to the inside rusher.

    Inside pressure, outside pressure, and blitz schemes are all factors in getting pressure (not to mention coverage) and all are relatively equal factors.
     
  3. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They have a penetrator. His name is Mike Wright. The problem is that he is a liability against the run and anybody who offers the same pass rush ability without the run issues is making tons of money as a 4-3 tackle.

    The ILBs should help though. Mayo, Spikes, Guyton, and Fletcher have all shown an ability to blitz up the middle with some effectiveness.
     
  4. bucky

    bucky 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The day BB abandons the 2-gap base defense is the day he agrees with you. Until then, a "PENETRATER" is a part time player on this team and therefore will always be higher on other teams' draft boards.
     
  5. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The guy that fits that mold is a Seymour type who can play DE in the base, and move inside and be disruptive in sub packages.
    We would value that guy as high as anyone. Otherwise, very good point, that a guy who fits someone elses system better than ours is rarely available to us.
     
  6. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Richard Seymour.. oh that guy? At least we get to see what that Raiders draft pick is going to amount to finally. :eek:
     
  7. bucky

    bucky 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    No question. There are some guys that can do that and they are special.

    The other point I was trying to make though, is that I don't agree with the OP that the NFL is all about 3 step drops and short passes. There is plenty of running and play action, and probably more 5 and 7 step drops now than 10 years ago.
     
  8. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ever since Lawrence Taylor (and even before, for that matter) wrecked havoc on NFL quarterbacks with a rush from the outside, conventional wisdom was that this is what defenses needed. Rule changes - excuse me, changes in points of emphasis and officiating corrections - that aided the passing game in order to counteract that have seemingly done nothing to change that point of view.

    Belichick is one coach that has been able to adapt - no surprise. The Pats minimize the effect of edge rushers with a quarterback that either gets rid of the ball too quickly for those pass rushers ... or kills opposing defenses should they give him time.

    I really loathe the word 'exposed' in regards to football because it tends to be used too often and inappropriately - but one overlooked thing is that the Giants did expose was that the vulnerable point to the Patriots offense was with an effective pass rush up the middle. It seems as if many may have overlooked that specific and instead focused on the generalization of 'pass rush' in order to counter offenses such as the Pats, Colts or Saints.

    Right now people look at interior offensive linemen as some sort of second-class citizen in comparison to pass rushers when it comes to building a roster; same goes (though to a lesser extent) for defensive tackles, especially if they play in a 4-3. My guess is that in the next few years that will change, as more and more teams try to put together schemes that emphasize more pressure up the middle rather than relying on pressure off the edge.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  9. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    IF the Patriots can find the correct 2-gap DE, the defense opens up for more scheming. With the 3 down line-men occupying 4-5 blockers, it frees up safeties, linebackers, corners to blitz from anywhere at anytime.
     
  10. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    There was a time when Wilfork was regarded as having both skill and inclination along those lines.

    One sign that BB agrees with you, Ken, would be for Wilfork to consistently play on passing downs even at the cost of taking a breather on base-defense downs.
     
  11. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    It is the 3rd and long which kills us. Too many times we've seen the qb complete the long pass to move the chains. No pressure from anywhere, and we know the qb is throwing.
     
  12. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While i agree pressure up the middle is the most effective type of pass rush you're using TB as an example. Brady is one of the best at side stepping rushers, there aren't very many QB's with his ability. Like someone else said you need pressure from both the inside and outside to be the most effective. The Pats have their inside guy with VW now they need an outside force as well
     
  13. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    3 down lineman will never occupy 5 blockers.
     
  14. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    In the 09 game against the Saints they brought pressure many times with a 3 man rush.
     
  15. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    I think the real question is how do you defend elite offenses vs lesser offenses.

    The Steelers are a great example. They can rack up great stats against slugs. However, how do they fair against the elite?

    Against an elite QB, the only chance you have is in mixing everything up. An unconfused elite QB will slice any defense.

    My wish list

    The league's elite secondary- you can never have too many good corners.

    Four Dline guys in the rotation that can bring pressure

    Smart, flexible LB's

    One or two pass rush specialists found in the third or fourth round.

    With Green Bay, the consensus seems to be shifting toward the secondary. The pass rush has been the rage since SB XLII.
     
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Improving the DE position would make the middle pass rush better. First, depending on the DE, they might play more of a DT role in a four man front sub package. Second, you get a DE who can tie up bodies, it allows the ILBs to shoot the gaps more efficiently. Third, in a 3-4 front, the DE can be putting pressure up the middle on a lot of defensive plays. He does line up inside the tackle.

    I think the Pats need to address both OLB and DE either through the draft or free agency. Warren and Wright returning to the line up will help the DE position, but they still need another starter to line up opposite Warren.
     
  17. Sicilian

    Sicilian Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    This may happen if Brace can develop into a reasonable backup NT. Right now I think Wilfork is good for a limited number of snaps per game, so BB uses him where his major strength is (which is the base). If there was someone reliable who could spell him on 1st/2nd down on occasion, Wilfork is a good option for interior pass rush.
     
  18. DW Toys

    DW Toys In the Starting Line-Up

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    Cousins,
    The innovative thinker that he is, I think BB was on to something when they had Arrington line up at DE. He is way too quick for any OT unless they get their hands on him.

    O.K. the 195lb Arrington may not be the whole answer but on third downs, as long as it is not short yardage, maybe plug in a kid like Barrett. Your going to be shocked but at the Combine the Arizona State athlete ran a 4.34 at 6'3" and 223lbs. He was best in the box at ASU. He made some sacks and TFL plays there.

    I never thought I would say this but I am coming around to like Dontay Moch at perhaps #74. He gives you what some like in Houston and Acho do but more.
    I would love Von Miller but you might have to give up too much to get him. Moch is bigger than you think.

    Also, is BB thinking FA when the CBA is done? He might have his eye on someone or Bill's, uncle's, bother-in-law's, next door neighbor might have run into the agent for a Manny Lawson or a Kiwanuka or a Matt Roth at the Mall and chatted about the weather. A some point there will be Free Agency. What if BB sees no fit with anyone on this Draft board?

    Back to Moch. He is less of a gamble at a third rounder than a reach for Ayers or Houston or Sheard at the end of the first.

    There is tape of him in coverage. See Boise State. Not bad at all. There is tape to look at and they did stand him up upon occasion. Better than I thought at coverage for sure. They would not be Drafting him for that. He is 6'2" and 248lbs. He had a timed speed once of 4.2 in the 40. He was 4.4 at the combine. TBC is 6' 2" and 250lbs. Harrison is 6' 242lbs, Matthews is 6' 3" and 255. Cameron Wake is 6'3" and 250.

    I have heard we should try to pry Dumervil from the Broncos. He is 5'11" and 242.

    Beside being the same size as TBC, he is bigger than Fletcher, whom I think will be decent, and five pounds lighter than Ninkovitch but the same height.

    Moch is 2lbs heavier than Miller but and inch shorter. Moch has a 42" vertical which is NBA type ability to sky.

    I have overlooked him until now, but the only OLB non conversions in the top seven OLB in this Draft, is the injured Carter, and the enigma Ayers who can't rush to save his life, and Miller was mostly a DE.

    We can't get Miller. Everyone else is a conversion but Moch did go into coverage.

    If you had a rush situation on third down and long, Wright (who has played in the middle some here), Barrett and Moch might be a superb answer for a pass rush with a three man line. There is just too much speed for an O Lineman and if we are saying it's hard to put pressure on with a three man line, I would like to see this scenario play out.

    If the opposition has to leave a RB or TE in to help, advantage BB. Yet we are not letting a 198lb CB rush at the DE spot.

    Another element is screens or draws should be contained to a minimal because Moch and (let's say) Barrett have enough speed to peel back.
    DW Toys
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  19. JoeShmoe

    JoeShmoe 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    You've just stated Brady's kryptonite and the reason some of us think upgrading the interior OL is just as important, if not more so, than a DE/OLB

    These penetrating DL's such as Ngata, Ellis, Baji etc ripped Koppen, Connoly etc to shreds last year and were one of the main reasons TfB was so off in the loss to the Jets

    We were 30th in pass coverage, is that a fault of no QB pressure or of our young secondary learning their trade, poor coverage skills by the LB'ers etc

    Guess we'll find out in the draft

    I think people could be crying when we dont go DE at all in the first 2 or 3 picks and get a T, a C/G and something else no one thinks like a WR or CB
     
  20. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I agree, and I think it's a good point. Unless you are a true elite edge rusher like Ware, your production is probably a little replaceable (we can get Ninko or Tully or even guys like Moore to fill in at an approaching adequate level). We'd all love to find an elite guy like that, but year after year we see that BB does not see that guy available.

    Strong interior pressure should be easier to find than elite edge pressure. Granted, we traded it away to the Raiders in Seymour a couple years back, but there should be some prospects in this draft that fit the bill.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
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