The Aaron Rodgers Argument

[patsfanincleveland]

It's because Manning retired. The haters HAVE to have someone they say is better than Brady.

This is actually the crux.

Mediots will claim that both Rodgers and Manning had to "do it on their own" based on their year in/year out rosters.

What is never figured out is both have to "do it on their own" because so much money is tied up in offenses designed and defaulted that way.

$10 million per year for Randle Cobb? Com'n man!!!!

Could either one do it with two UDFA's , a rookie 4th, and a 7th rounder making a fraction of the cap?

 

[Nehalem]

What is your evidence that Brady's mental game is superior to Rodgers? Im just curious if its something you see on film or what

Process of elimination. Rodgers is pretty much inarguably bett

I'm not convinced Rodgers has passed Favre. There's some recency bias here.

By the same age as Rodgers, Favre had won 3 consecutive AP MVP awards, and been to back-to-back Super Bowls. We overlook how dominant he was because he has been around so long, the narrative is about his longevity. It's why I was ****ing pissed when Matt Ryan was asked what he admired about Brady, and he basically said he admires how Brady has been so consistent for so long well into his older years.

**** THAT. Tom Brady has ice water in his veins, and you saw it in the Super Bowl. He's amazing in so many different ways, does so many things that guys 10-15 years younger than him can't do, yet it all seems to revolve around how long he's been playing.

We assume (falsely) that longevity is just some old guy hanging on. Health is a skill. So is playing smart. How many times did you see Tom throw it into the ground to avoid a hit? Favre was a bit of a gunslinger, but he avoided many big hits by getting rid of the ball. Meanwhile Rodgers tends to hold it to avoid the incompletions, and he's gotten more injuries because of it. He has trouble making big comebacks because he doesn't take chances that others do.

Rodgers is a great QB, not claiming otherwise. But I don't think he's passed Favre. Though if you believe he has, he definitely hasn't passed Starr. Either way, he doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation yet.

Through their age 33 season Favre had a record of 115-58, and Rodgers has a 90-45 record. Interestingly this is essentially exactly the same win percenty at 66%.

Didn't expect that. I have to say you have more of a point than I originally thought.

I think the thing that makes Rodgers look so good is his other-worldly low interception percentage. Interesting that it doesn't translate into more wins over even the "interception machine" Brett Favre.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Process of elimination. Rodgers is pretty much inarguably bett


Through their age 33 season Favre had a record of 115-58, and Rodgers has a 90-45 record. Interestingly this is essentially exactly the same win percenty at 66%.

Didn't expect that. I have to say you have more of a point than I originally thought.

I think the thing that makes Rodgers look so good is his other-worldly low interception percentage. Interesting that it doesn't translate into more wins over even the "interception machine" Brett Favre.

If you read the link in my post about Rodgers not taking chances when trailing, it makes a lot of sense.

Skeptical Football: The Aaron Rodgers Enigma

His low interception rate is meaningless if he's sacrificing wins to maintain it.

You play to win the game. Not to protect your stats.

 

[brdmaverick]

You play to win the game.

Herm Edwards, is that you?

 

[doesntmatter1]

tom brady with a playable leg injury=still tom

Rodgers with a playable leg injury= almost a jag.

I'd argue that I would rather have Big Ben over Rodgers. Ben also plays backyard football, is more durable, and has a couple superbowls under his belt.

 

[doesntmatter1]

If you read the link in my post about Rodgers not taking chances when trailing, it makes a lot of sense.

Skeptical Football: The Aaron Rodgers Enigma

His low interception rate is meaningless if he's sacrificing wins to maintain it.

You play to win the game. Not to protect your stats.

Oh god. The best analogy to describe Rodgers is that guy in call of duty that never helps cap a flag in domination and hides in a corner to maintain a high k/d all the way to a loss lol. I hate those guys.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Herm Edwards, is that you?

I loved that rant. It was especially amusing because Edwards had a reputation for being very conservative and playing not-to-lose. I don't know if he was trying to convince the media or himself that day. But those words do stick with me a lot, even if he was a hypocrite to shout them out that day.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

A number of people have pointed out the difference between Brady and Rodgers when it comes to leadership and determination. I think an interesting way, albeit an imperfect way, is to look at 4th quarter comebacks versus losses.

For the regular season, Brady has 39 comeback wins vs. 52 losses
Rodgers has 10 comebacks vs. 45 losses.

In the playoffs, Brady has 7 comebacks vs 9 losses
Rodgers has 1 comeback vs 7 losses

That is a stark difference. This doesn't take into account circumstances, but I think it is very telling. Brady has incredible mental toughness. I don't think Rodgers compares well in this area.

Man, how many of those comebacks by Rodgers are due to a hail mary? 3? Those count as comebacks, but they're something sorta different in my book.

 

[deroc5050]

I'm not convinced Rodgers has passed Favre. There's some recency bias here.

. Health is a skill. So is playing smart. How many times did you see Tom throw it into the ground to avoid a hit? Favre was a bit of a gunslinger, but he avoided many big hits by getting rid of the ball. Meanwhile Rodgers tends to hold it to avoid the incompletions, and he's gotten more injuries because of it.

Rodgers is a great QB, not claiming otherwise. But I don't think he's passed Favre. Though if you believe he has, he definitely hasn't passed Starr. Either way, he doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation yet.

Health is a skill? I am not so sure about that. Manning would just fall down if he knew a sack was incoming.

I think Brady has been tough and a bit lucky to not get injured more often. Brady is avoiding the rush and passing out of the pocket more to extend plays, if anything that would up his chances of getting injured.

When Brady was injured he played through it a lot. I heard he played with a separated shoulder at points.. honestly even with pain killers I dont even know how its possible. I separated my shoulder I couldn't without extreme pain just lift my arm over my head.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Health is a skill? I am not so sure about that. Manning would just fall down if he knew a sack was incoming.

I think Brady has been tough and a bit lucky to not get injured more often. Brady is avoiding the rush and passing out of the pocket more to extend plays, if anything that would up his chances of getting injured.

When Brady was injured he played through it a lot. I heard he played with a separated shoulder at points.. honestly even with pain killers I dont even know how its possible. I separated my shoulder I couldn't without extreme pain just lift my arm over my head.

Brady is very tough, no doubt. But I do think health is a skill as well. If strength is considered a skill, and it's something that can be developed and refined, why can't health be considered similar as well?

It starts with diet and nutrition, but goes into training for the body too. And the one skill that really correlates with it would be football awareness. There's a difference between bracing yourself for a hit and not even seeing it coming.

Manning would dive rather than take the hit, but he could only do that because he saw it coming. Ditto Brady, who sees a play break down and just throws it away or harmlessly at a receiver's feet. Look at the play that Jimmy got hurt on. He was trying to make a big play and just couldn't get away. With experience like Brady, he probably throws that away soon enough to not take the hit, or at least brace himself better.

There's no doubt Brady is playing with injuries too, but over dozens and hundreds of hits, the more aware QBs are able to potentially lessen the odds of getting hit directly, of falling unprepared, or learning to live to fight another day.

 

[Wrath Mania]

I'm not convinced Rodgers has passed Favre. There's some recency bias here.

By the same age as Rodgers, Favre had won 3 consecutive AP MVP awards, and been to back-to-back Super Bowls. We overlook how dominant he was because he has been around so long, the narrative is about his longevity. It's why I was ****ing pissed when Matt Ryan was asked what he admired about Brady, and he basically said he admires how Brady has been so consistent for so long well into his older years.

**** THAT. Tom Brady has ice water in his veins, and you saw it in the Super Bowl. He's amazing in so many different ways, does so many things that guys 10-15 years younger than him can't do, yet it all seems to revolve around how long he's been playing.

We assume (falsely) that longevity is just some old guy hanging on. Health is a skill. So is playing smart. How many times did you see Tom throw it into the ground to avoid a hit? Favre was a bit of a gunslinger, but he avoided many big hits by getting rid of the ball. Meanwhile Rodgers tends to hold it to avoid the incompletions, and he's gotten more injuries because of it. He has trouble making big comebacks because he doesn't take chances that others do.

Rodgers is a great QB, not claiming otherwise. But I don't think he's passed Favre. Though if you believe he has, he definitely hasn't passed Starr. Either way, he doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation yet.

Favre's longevity and "iron man" status definitely impressive, especially given the era he was playing consecutive games. I like your point because it reminds me of Garoppolo's injury in the MIA game, and how it was a kind of hit Brady would know how to avoid, or at least contort his shoulders to minimize. So you're right, longevity comes from action, and Favre was great at it. My only rebuttal to this would be that, despite all that, longevity did not lead to an overall improvement in Favre's game over time. And I think that's because he got careless, and stopped giving a **** after Holmgren left, and become more of a deity in Green Bay rather than part of the team (of course, this may happen with Rodgers too).

I also think from 94-98 Favre was unparalleled in terms of ability. And certainly, you have a good argument too with Rodgers' hesitation to make risky throws in big spots (does he march down the field like Brady did in OT in the Super Bowl?). On the other hand, one of the reasons I'd take Rodgers over Favre is because he IS much more careful with the football. Outside of Favre's MVP seasons and his '09 run with the Vikings, his INT totals trend from sketchy to horrific.

Maybe I should withhold judgment until Rodgers has played more years, just in the event he does decline like Favre did. And I also know it's difficult to compare yards and TD numbers from 20 years ago to now. But I also think an argument can be made that Rodgers has done with a lot more than what Favre had (some good to great defenses, for starters).

Definitely would not put him above Starr, and I wouldn't put either him or Brett in a top five or anything like that.

 

[mikey m]

Haven't followed this thread at all but a couple things I've been thinking about. Guys who want to say that TB isn't the goat usually argue that the SBs are a team stat and they'll point to the stats that make their guy look better, Montana - sb stats, manning/Rodgers - regular season stats. I'd argue that the other 10 guys on the field with the qb + the OC play a huge role in those "individual" stats. The role that the whole group plays in the qb's numbers is similar to the role the qb plays in the team's chances of postseason success, assuming the team isn't totally carried by the defense and running game. Not sure if any of this made sense, but basically, the guy with the stats and rings is the goat. We all know who that is.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

rodgers is great. i don't have to put him down or pimp brady. i'm not that insecure.

rodgers will be top 3-4 greatest when he retires. i love watching him

 

[Nehalem]

If you read the link in my post about Rodgers not taking chances when trailing, it makes a lot of sense.

Skeptical Football: The Aaron Rodgers Enigma

His low interception rate is meaningless if he's sacrificing wins to maintain it.

You play to win the game. Not to protect your stats.

"It’s when the quarterbacks’ teams are down 9 or more points in the second half that you really see the difference. Peyton Manning throws interceptions on 15.6 percent of his drives, compared to Rodgers’ 8.1 percent. And for that, Manning is punished … by winning 28.6 percent of these games. Rodgers, meanwhile, wins 0 percent. That’s right, Rodgers has zero comebacks of 9 or more points in the second half. Ever."

Ouch. Though I think he finally got one comeback in 2015 on a hail mary TD. Meanwhile Brady has come back from such circumstances in the last 2 SBs.

 

[Guts]

Any QB can be more physically gifted than our TB12 but it doesn't matter. TB12 mind, preparation, timing and above all his heart and will to win separates him from everybody else. You can have all the stats and highlights to back you up, but if you need a game to win with your life on the line you're choosing TB12 to lead your team.

 

[mosslost]

I just don't get it. Why do many national media pundits still think Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback now and of all time?

It still boggles my mind. I mean, are people that starved to put up a contrarian point of view against Brady? People are always so eager to hype 'the next guy' and put far more weight on someone's potential versus looking at others have already done.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir on this forum, but I think the argument ends with this statement that is true..........

Aaron Rodgers can only dream about doing what Tom Brady has already done.

Think about that, Aaron Rodgers would have to be insanely fortunate to win 5 titles, a feat already achieved by Tom Brady.

Sure, I could understand the 'want for a debate' if Brady's best years were behind him. Because (unrightly so), people always put more emphasis on the 'here and now' than the past, but in this argument Brady wins both the PAST and the HERE AND NOW! It's not like all of his titles and regular season success came 10 years ago. Brady is still going strong and continues to (obviously winning two of the last three titles).

And this rant is coming from someone who actually really likes Aaron Rodgers. I've said on this forum a few times before that the Packers are my 'nfc team' and that I really enjoyed watching Favre play and now Rodgers. But for people to try to elevate him over Brady is just plain crazy.

Sorry, had to vent.

Here is the thing though.. Brady went three out of four at one point.. And he just went 2 out 3...

Who is to say that another brief dynasty for a team like GB could not happen? If he "3 out of 4" all the sudden, he would have four. Not going to happen, but remember, it happened for Brady. Win another won then repeat and just keep it going.

It "could" happen for any great QB with a great team. Anything can happen actually the Patriots really prove that.
EDIT: Not to mention there was a 10 year drought for Brady. Another team with a QB who has 1 or 2 could suddnely have a mini dynasty. just saying. Ben has 2. What if for some crazy reason they won the next 2 in a row? Again just sayin.

 

[mosslost]

More or less just dealing with some jerks in the office.

But the fact that this conversation even existed during the GB-ATL is still mind blowing right? After all, at that juncture, Brady was still 3 titles up on him and had just as good of a shot (if not better due to homefield) of winning the title for the current year.

Let me say this first to get it out of the way.. I DO think Tom is the GOAT QB.. but it is actually MORE than just the championships. I think he is the GOAT by his QB performances ALONE. He is the best.. the best to play.. the best to watch. He is the best. The Super Bowl wins are huge as well, but it is beyond that for me.

That all said, let's (for the millionth time) use the example of Dan Marino. Dan Marino is infintely greater than Joe Flacco, Rob Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, Jim McMahn.. the list is long.

Marino is an all time great QB. Zero rings. The only reason I mention it is Rodgers cannot be ONLY judged on his 1 ring. He is an amazing QB, who in my opinion is still not as good as Brady, even if you take out the 4 extra Super Bowls Brady has. What if Brady lost SB51 by Falcons getting the ball first? It would not change Brady's greatness. What if the Panthers somehow beat us in 38, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the 5 SB wins are massive in Tom's over all greatness. But in his favor, I am saying I go further than just his SB wins, I think he is the greatest even without them.

 

[brdmaverick]

As a fan it is fun to see a guy throw and absolute bomb down the field, or zip lazers to receivers, or use sheer athleticism to avoid a sack. Those are things that are very easy to observe to the eye, but there are many other factors that go into playing quarterback.

Reading a defense and deciding where to best go with the ball are CRITICAL qualities of a quarterback, but are very hard (near impossible) to measure unless you have inside information (you know what the play was supposed to be or what the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd options were). So without having a good way to measure those, the only sensibile way to even try would be wins. After all, if a QB reads defenses well and consistently makes the right decisions, as long as he has the physical traits to get the ball to the receiver the team must be winning, right?

Well, I think Brady's overall W/L records (playoffs and regular season) speak for themselves.

 

[Deus Irae]

Guys who want to say that TB isn't the goat usually argue that the SBs are a team stat

Realistically, every stat in football is a game stat, if you play it out. Even something as basic as games played is a function of more than just the player.

 

[JFK]

Brady wins as a result of heart and smarts. In terms of physical aspects and thrown, I'll say Rogers but Brady can read defenses better and has better pocket awareness.