The Aaron Rodgers Argument

[NormZauchin]

Vick was hands down the most talented QB I've seen. He got clocked running a 4.25 40. Great strength for his size. Cannon for an arm. Didn't work on his craft so we never saw what he could of been. Then he went to jail.

He was so fast, he could outrun his dogs.

 

[NormZauchin]

Elway also got to two of his Super Bowls because of blatant chokes by the Browns. In the end, both underperformed their proclaimed skill sets in their early years and primes (to date). Elway didn't get his SB wins until he wasn't really Elway anymore.

Browns choke and a little help from a guy named Terrell Davis.

 

[Nikolai]

Not as much since the Super Bowl but it's still there and will continue to linger.

Let me put it this way, you have heard this argument mentioned many many times since Brady won his fourth Super Bowl right? Even then he had a 4-1 edge on Rogers.

What makes you think it will stop now that it's 5-1? The Rogers supports for best QB defy logic. As soon as Rogers makes his next unwordly play the talk continues again.

Wait till Brady's first off game next year.

I see what you guys are saying, but at this point it won't exactly be MENSA members beating that drum.

I guess I'm kinda over worrying about it. All it really means is that TFB was right all along. He's #199 and he'll always have to prove them wrong. And when people look back on him, they'll view him like Ruth. Even if he's somehow surpassed, his name is synonymous with greatness. It's done.

 

[Deus Irae]

that's not a valid comparison. rodgers is Marino with 1 ring with montana efficiency. elway never put up the best stats. statistically rodgers is putting up best numbers almost every year.

IMO rodgers will go down as top 5 all time.

I like Rodgers. But, right now, Rodgers is a poor man's Elway, and it's flattering for Rodgers to even get the comparison. Elway's a top 15 all-time QB who went to 5 Super Bowls.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Green Bay's D practically shut down Atlanta in the second half. Aaron Rodgers could not lead them to victory despite the help from the defense.

Brady outperformed Rodgers in practically the same circumstances.

Shut down Atlanta in the 2nd half? They gave up 20 points in the 2nd half and 44 points total. No QB can be expected to win a game when the D gives up 44 damned points. And I can't criticize the first half Rodgers had considering what that D did to Brady and the offense in the first half of the Super Bowl. Rodgers played a pretty good 2nd half, but his D just dug him into way too big of a hole. I'm not saying he played as well as Brady. Brady had an absolutely ridiculous 2nd half/OT (his 3rd quarter was better than his stats, two drops on 3rd down that stalled drives weren't his fault).

Rodgers is immensely talented and will go down as one of the all-time greats. I can't argue with someone calling him the most talented and wondering what would happen if he had a capable coach a decent defense. I do question his leadership, but as a pure passer, his talent is awesome.

 

[NashuaPats]

A number of people have pointed out the difference between Brady and Rodgers when it comes to leadership and determination. I think an interesting way, albeit an imperfect way, is to look at 4th quarter comebacks versus losses.

For the regular season, Brady has 39 comeback wins vs. 52 losses
Rodgers has 10 comebacks vs. 45 losses.

In the playoffs, Brady has 7 comebacks vs 9 losses
Rodgers has 1 comeback vs 7 losses

That is a stark difference. This doesn't take into account circumstances, but I think it is very telling. Brady has incredible mental toughness. I don't think Rodgers compares well in this area.

 

[deroc5050]

Rodgers is the Elway of his era, albeit with less overall playoff success, and with the one SB win earlier in the career. All the proclaimed talent in the world, for whatever various reasons, doesn't quite translate to equivalent postseason glory.

Football is a team game, not who has the best QB. I just find it disingenuous when fans say well Brady has won more Super Bowls.. and that ends the debate. No it doesn't.

However with that said Brady is the best.

Troy Aikmen and Terry Bradshaw both won 3/4 Super Bowls and I never hear them in the top 10 discussion.

I don't think Brady is the best ever at what he does because he has won 5 rings. He is the best ever for multiple reasons. Winning, Stats, The willingness to be coached even after your NFL royalty, the drive to get better every year, And his over all drive to succeed 24-7, 365.
oh and of course leadership and the ability to play at the top of his game under Pressure situations.

I can also make the arguments that Brady has done more with less offensive talent around him for his over all career.

This wasn't directed at you btw.

 

[Deus Irae]

Football is a team game, not who has the best QB. I just find it disingenuous when fans say well Brady has won more Super Bowls.. and that ends the debate. No it doesn't.

However with that said Brady is the best.

Troy Aikmen and Terry Bradshaw both won 3/4 Super Bowls and I never hear them in the top 10 discussion.

I don't think Brady is the best ever at what he does because he has won 5 rings. He is the best ever for multiple reasons. Winning, Stats, The willingness to be coached even after your NFL royalty, the drive to get better every year, And his over all drive to succeed 24-7, 365.

This wasn't directed at you btw.

I hear you.

Football is a team game, but the QB touches the ball on, essentially, every play on offense. No player in football has more of an impact on the game than the QB, so tying win/loss to him is common sense. The same (basically) is true of starting pitchers in baseball, goaltenders in hockey and the "superstars" in basketball.

Having said that, I agree that any data has to have context, and that includes SB wins, and wins in general. As I noted, in this thread or another, Elway got to 2 of his SBs because of Cleveland Browns choke jobs. That takes a bit of the gloss off of those two appearances. On the other hand, he had his team in position to win with the help of those chokes (See Brady, Tom and the 2016 SB).

Bradshaw and Aikman aren't listed in the top 10 precisely because of context. I have Elway in a pretty sizable group of QBs who are fighting for the slots after #8, for example, precisely because I do look at the context and not just the wins. Top 8:

Brady
Montana
Starr
Baugh
Graham
Unitas
Staubach
Young

For me, the slotting questions really start there. IMO, legit arguments can be made for pretty much anyone in the top 15 or so to be as high as #9.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Anyone that argues Rogers was or is better than Brady is an idiot and a fool.

That's a fact....end of story

 

[meatface]

Anyone that argues Rogers was or is better than Brady is an idiot and a fool.

That's a fact....end of story

As a fellow Brady lover and Pats fan, other people are allowed to have opinions. And with something as subjective as this you can't even try and claim Brady being the #1 is a fact. You aren't going to be able to convince some people and that's okay.

 

[meatface]

Correct. No one mentioned that after ATL game. Also, some media folks pitied him because his supporting cast were hurt and could not help him win the game.

It is funny to see people pull out excuses for things they like that they derided when used by others.

 

[deroc5050]

As a fellow Brady lover and Pats fan, other people are allowed to have opinions. And with something as subjective as this you can't even try and claim Brady being the #1 is a fact. You aren't going to be able to convince some people and that's okay.

Most people or at least 95% of hard core football guys.. would at the very least say that TB has had the best career ever. Which is sort of semantic way of saying he is the best or at the same time saying he isn't the best ever.. just had the most success.

 

[PatriotsReign]

As a fellow Brady lover and Pats fan, other people are allowed to have opinions. And with something as subjective as this you can't even try and claim Brady being the #1 is a fact. You aren't going to be able to convince some people and that's okay.

I don't try to convince others that Brady is better because he is.

But if someone chooses to take the side of a fool, that's their choice.

Rogers isn't even close to being a top QB in NFL history

Brady is automatically at the top of that discussion

 

[PatriotsReign]

Most people or at least 95% of hard core football guys.. would at the very least say that TB has had the best career ever. Which is sort of semantic way of saying he is the best or at the same time saying he isn't the best ever.. just had the most success.

The most success is the definition of the best

 

[meatface]

Most people or at least 95% of hard core football guys.. would at the very least say that TB has had the best career ever. Which is sort of semantic way of saying he is the best or at the same time saying he isn't the best ever.. just had the most success.

I don't know, people really hate the Patriots. I think after they have both retired then maybe but I was listening to WFAN NY after the Super Bowl and the haters were still calling in saying how he was a system QB who wouldn't be anything without BB. I think they would twist themselves in knots trying to argue that Brady actually isnt all that good.

 

[Wrath Mania]

It's funny, I just got into this discussion with someone. I told them they obviously haven't followed football long, since Rodgers isn't even the best QB in his franchise's history. Or second-best either. Starr and Favre hold those honours. Your order may vary on who you rank first or second, but both have accomplished more than Rodgers has. That was the end of the discussion.

I think he's passed Favre by now. I get Favre has him beat on career records, but that's just a matter of age and time. They already both have a ring. More importantly, Favre's record post-Holmgren is pretty ugly. Kind of a shame. His play really became spotty after '98, with just a few blips on the radar where his team got into playoffs and lost on a dumb interception ('03, '07, '09). Had he stayed in a disciplined program and avoided the retirement sweepstakes I think he'd be in everyone's top 5.

 

[TB12TheGoat]

That's Aaron Godgers to you, buddy

 

[Pats1989]

Want to win a fantasy ( Great stats, eye popping plays) pool? Pick Rodgers.

Want to see pure greatness of a guy who just wins? Pick Brady.

 

[Pats1989]

I never heard him talked about as the greatest of all time before the GB-ATL game. He's simply not and will never be, no matter his stats. He doesn't have the heart. Still, I would take him if I could not have Brady. He's probably the second best QB in the league present day.

I don't know why it bothers anyone what the media says at this point. Brady has won two Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVP's since the media started predicting his decline. They have him voted most likely to decline next season. Who gives a f*ck?

After the 14 KC game, Brady has been off the charts good. No doubt.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I think he's passed Favre by now. I get Favre has him beat on career records, but that's just a matter of age and time. They already both have a ring. More importantly, Favre's record post-Holmgren is pretty ugly. Kind of a shame. His play really became spotty after '98, with just a few blips on the radar where his team got into playoffs and lost on a dumb interception ('03, '07, '09). Had he stayed in a disciplined program and avoided the retirement sweepstakes I think he'd be in everyone's top 5.

I'm not convinced Rodgers has passed Favre. There's some recency bias here.

By the same age as Rodgers, Favre had won 3 consecutive AP MVP awards, and been to back-to-back Super Bowls. We overlook how dominant he was because he has been around so long, the narrative is about his longevity. It's why I was ****ing pissed when Matt Ryan was asked what he admired about Brady, and he basically said he admires how Brady has been so consistent for so long well into his older years.

**** THAT. Tom Brady has ice water in his veins, and you saw it in the Super Bowl. He's amazing in so many different ways, does so many things that guys 10-15 years younger than him can't do, yet it all seems to revolve around how long he's been playing.

We assume (falsely) that longevity is just some old guy hanging on. Health is a skill. So is playing smart. How many times did you see Tom throw it into the ground to avoid a hit? Favre was a bit of a gunslinger, but he avoided many big hits by getting rid of the ball. Meanwhile Rodgers tends to hold it to avoid the incompletions, and he's gotten more injuries because of it. He has trouble making big comebacks because he doesn't take chances that others do.

Rodgers is a great QB, not claiming otherwise. But I don't think he's passed Favre. Though if you believe he has, he definitely hasn't passed Starr. Either way, he doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation yet.