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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by otis p. driftwood, Jun 14, 2008.

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  1. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    First of all, if this isn't the right place, I apologize, please move, thanks.

    A recent post by MoLewisRocks about the Pats all access show triggered something that's been bouncing around in my head for a while now, about team chemistry.

    Zolack talked about the chemistry already coming together for the Pats, and of course everyone's been talking about how amazing the Celtics chemistry has been, and how quickly it developed.

    Then last year there was how quickly Brady and Moss and Welker got together, and it made me wonder, is chemistry a product of the individuals or the organization?

    I know in my personal life there have been people I couldn't work with no matter what, and I'm sure that's the same in everyone else's as well. So what's the secret to the Pats or the C's success? Does it come from only getting good people? Or is it strictly something that trickles down from the top, in this case BB and Brady?
  2. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

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    #75 Jersey

    They take the time to evaluate and don't fool themselves.
  3. PatsFanInVa

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    The old phrase "winning fixes everything" comes to mind. When you come to NE you know you are coming to the class of the league.

    People have 1 of 3 opinions about the Pats, it seems:

    - Really hate 'em. They're cheap, they're cold, they're heartless, they cheat, yadda yadda yadda. They don't want us, we don't want them.

    - Faking hating 'em. They're cheap, they're cold, they're heartless, they cheat, oh thank GOD they called me! (See Hobson, V.)

    - Are psyched beyond belief to get a call from what most of the league realizes is the class of the NFL, pretty much in all regards.

    I mean, could you imagine playing for a team struggling for, say, their 3rd playoff berth in 4 years -- which considers that GOOD -- then coming to a team all but guaranteed to make a Super Bowl run?

    Yeah, I noticed the same thing w/Brady, Moss, Welker... etc. Also even more amazingly, there is a "Patriot Way" about "PR"... players themselves are VERY tight-lipped outside the team. That was true before last year's camera bull****, and it's even truer now.

    When it's rare for a player to pop off at he jaw for the media, it's impossible for them to take their minor tiffs public (where minor tiffs turn into major ones.)

    Just some bored observations. It's Saturday night, and I'm middle-aged. What else do I have to do?
  4. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    True enough--but how do you explain the Celtics? Is there a common denominator, do you suppose (besides winning)? Because Ainge and Doc don't seem to be Belioli...
  5. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    i think with the Celtics, they got lucky and it seems to have worked out.

    I've seen Portland and LA load up crazy with talent and do nothing.
  6. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess we'll all relate this to our experiences. My experience says it's the players - once Brady, Bruschi, Harrison, et al, are gone, Belichick will have to have more players like that or there could be no chemistry. I love Belichick, obviously, but if he doesn't have the leaders on the team he's not the type to bring a warmth and hapiness to the locker room. That's largely based on my own experiences - my management can go fly a kite or all go down in an airplane for all I care. Seriously. But I'm happy and contribute to a "team chemistry" because I like my engineer peers.
  7. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My opinion is that chemistry is more important in basketball than any other sport.

    Basketball teams, more than any other sport, can be greatly influenced by one or two players. I mean, look at the Celtics the year before Bird got there. This year, KG really turned around the team. Not just with his O or D, but also with his intensity and love-of-team, which spread to the rest of the players. The C's had good-character guys last year, but a guy like KG brought everyone's focus together and turned everyone's efforts to "11", especially on the D side of the ball. And obviously his on the court contributions have played a huge part in the team's success.

    Ray also helps, of course, and he's a consumate pro that the youngsters could look up to.

    And then as the team began to win, everyone seemed to buy more and more into it, to the point where a guy like Scalabrine who isn't even dressing is totally into it and intense.
  8. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    I think chemistry in football and basketball are apples and oranges. 53 guys versus 12 guys (only about 8 of whom even play) is very different.

    The Patriots locker room is full of veteran players who are hard workers which is the key to their team culture. Every position has guys who fit that mold - QB, RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, DB.

    The Celtics team culture is essentially because of their best player (Garnett) being a totally selfless player. In basketball one player can set the tone - positive or negative.
  9. DarrylS

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    As much as it is raisins and grapefruit, team chemistry comes from the top and the players as well...

    Consider the sox, remember in the Nomar years there were 25 cabs for 25 players.. now Francona confronts everyone privately, there are primadonna's, but somewhat less, and the team is much more cohesive than it has ever been.. how is that working out for that team.

    The Celtics at the beginning of the year were discussed by the talking heads that this team would be good for 40+ wins as they had to learn to play together. Rivers and these guys made sacrifices for the good of the team, how did that work out..

    The Patriots, who I know more about, have always been this way.. BB knows how to build a team and protect them from the evil influences of the press, this coupled with players who want to win and realize that by playing together they can do so. Consider #83, last year when he was signed ( I loved this signing) he showed up all over the place at showings with the Pats, softball games.. charitable activities.. this guy wanted to be here, compare to many athletes who come on the scene and no one really knows them until TC starts.. Welker was brilliant as he had already negotiated all those relationships and just fit right.

    Back to the question, it is a combination of both.. great leadership, players who individual ego's are not bigger than the group and a willingness to let themselves be coached. How many times have we seen big scenes on the sidelines with the likes of superstars like Chad Johnson, can you imagine this ever happening on the Patriots??
  10. MoLewisrocks

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    Winning certainly facilitates building chemistry, but absent the right makeup it can be pretty short lived. I think for it to roll so to speak, as it does here from season to season, you need a strong core of genuinely unselfish players and management who can pay more than lip service to chicking egos at the door. That is what Ainge appears to have built (or stumbled onto if you don't want to credit him just yet) with Doc and this big three. It only takes one or two bad apples in either of those positions (core talent or management) to flumox chemistry, which is why some teams are one and done or never quite get there. The Giants had to lose Tiki and Shockey and Strahan had to embrace Eli warts and all. And their HC had to back off and give his remaining coaches and players room to develop some chemistry. Their's will likely be short lived as some new egos emerge and an old ones exit(Strahan) or re-emerge (unless they replace Shockey and Plax). Sometimes guys can do the ego less thing in brief increments, it's rare they can maintain it in the presence of superior talent. That's just human nature. The Lakers are trying desperately to manufacture it with Kobe (and as JoeSixPack dubbed 'em the Euroweanies) and Phil, but those are two huge personalities to keep in check for long, win or lose. I think it's a lot easier to win in BBall without it if you have just so much talent. That is why Kobe and Shaq could win while hating each other in the process. Dallas is trying to manufacture it in the presence of some odd ingredients like an owner who has to be front and center, a weak HC, a likeable good old boy QB and some troubled mega talents for whom the process has to be fun or tempers flare. For them chemistry is tenuous and will key on winning early and often, because if they don't it will all implode in a hurry on a 53 man roster in a game where a superstar's impact can be minimized/marginalized by several of his complimentary teamates play on any given day. The Eagles have long struggled with being dominated by two (and briefly three) core personalities/talents who at times are at odds in McNabb and Reid. It always seems to be about one or the other of them there on and off the field, publicly and privately. The rest of the team is just along for the ride.

    Chemistry is all about trust and comfort level with each other and a program, and that is built over time through adversity but ultimately with success. And time is the one thing professional athletes/teams don't have much of as individuals or units for one reason or another. We were lucky 2001 unfolded as it did. It built a core trust between Brady, the staff and the team that 2003 and 2004 just cemented for at least the decade. It would likely take a couple of 5-11 seasons to remotely begin to shake that trust. And Belioli have done a good job over the last several seasons recruiting even fringe guys with potential core qualities to the point we now have like an inner and outer core that pretty mucy corrals the rest of the seasonal roster almost from day 1.
  11. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For the record, the 25 cabs period was pre Nomar. Nomar and Pedro - surrounded by a bunch of mid level at best "grinders" actually built a contender on sheer chemistry - which wasn't easy to do given the mismanagement of the times (both Jimy and Duke tended to be lightening rods at times). They got their team to within one Grady Little brain fart of a WS. His issues were with management and the media, not his teamates. Together they did more chemistry damage than he ever could. Even today chemistry is somewhat tenuous on Yawkey Way...;) Don't even get me started on Mr. Bloody Sock - they're lucky he's on IR! They win these days because they can and do outspend all but one competitor.
  12. castlelong1

    castlelong1 Banned

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    Call me a koolaid drinker, but I think a lot of the Celtics chemistry comes from Garnett. If you are not part of the big 3 you are not made to feel like a dumb schmuck blessed by the munificent presence of the big 3.

    The Patriots have that.

    Everyone, including the players, know that Brady is important. There is not separate set of "Brady rules". Yes he probably could get away with more than, say, Hochstein; but he doesn't push it.
  13. castlelong1

    castlelong1 Banned

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    As for the bloody sock. I think if you are good on the field they can tolerate you more.

    For the Patriots, word is Corey Dillon was not well liked, but tolerated as long as it was obvious he was the best option.

    As for Schilling, if he comes back healthy in August, fine. For the short term a good chemistry team can tolerate almost anyone if they are effective on the field.

    Winning cures everything. Oh, I said "short term."
  14. Patjew

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    Not that it can be quantitified, but I'd say he's 80% of it.
  15. OhExaulted1

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    Remember a couple years ago when everyone was talking about Tom's "body language"? 10-6 will make people ask alot of questions.
  16. MoLewisrocks

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    Only people on the outside looking in who never fully trust what they don't personally experience. Fans are sheep and media are sheepherders. As long as a team doesn't question itself or start pointing fingers there isn't a problem. And this team has never done that.

    Even when they win it all, this team gets that it could always do better. Because over several seasons Bill has shown that to be a truism. That is why while they never publicly lobby for help they also don't hissy when it comes at a cost, both in players who were their brothers lost and strangers who have yet to become brothers getting paid more than the guy who left, not to mention most of they ones who remain. Egos being what they are in sports, most teams find it hard to acknowledge the need to improve short of playing the blame game. And that is a sure fire chemistry killer. You even see that on fan sites like this where the chemistry has soured significantly over the last 2-3 seasons as the blame pie gets divided ever more venemously despite 3 playoff seasons, one of which was one for the ages...:D
  17. OhExaulted1

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    Yeah, it is saying something when you "suffered" through a 10-6 season and losing in the 2nd Rd. of the playoffs. That would be monumental if you were a Cardinals fan.

    The chemistry on this team is uncanny and we have the mad scientist brewing the concoction. 'Tis truly a bueatiful thing.
  18. MoLewisrocks

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    I'm not so sure it's not that 80% of it comes from the Big Three collectively. Pierce is the captain and ten year veteran who almost left prior to this season. He had to buy in to potentially not being IT. For a guy who long felt he was not getting his due for reasons beyond his control, that had to be quite the leap of faith. (And one btw that Bledsoe for example couldn't or wouldn't make here.) And while Allen facilitated getting Garnett, once that happened he clearly became the 3rd of 3. He has dealt with that with an almost "Dungyesque" quite strength... These three have truly emerged (in unison) as team players which is what has allowed this bench to grow and when needed flourish. That is a very Patriotesque trait. And while Doc may not be the BB x's and o's genius, he is a wonderful facilitator and patient teacher - and that, which garnered him lots of flack from that segment of the fan base and media who don't appreciate that aspect of coaching, is the other 20% that allowed this all to work (which he shares with Danny who had the intestinal fortitude to quietly remain focused on the overall goal when everyone said he'd already failed and he was paying the wrong guy to coach a team to a championship...). The most consistently successful coaches will tell you the same thing, it's a marathon not a sprint, and they build and handle and pace their teams accordingly - eschewing the high highs and low lows in favor of maintaining focus on the end goal.
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Another point is that this may be the 'last best hope' for all three to get a ring. They have all been in the league long enough to have seen it all and played on some awful teams. That experience alone with ten years in the league coupled with 'checking their egos at the door' helped. I heard the players say in interviews that the European trip pre-season helped build chemistry by getting them away from the press ( by and large) and bringing them closer. If they close out the Lakers, they ought to ask for another one next year!!!!
  20. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Garnett's unselfishness is contagiuos. It always has been. Let's not forget, this is a guy who had Sam Cassell and Spreewell playing in harmony with him in Minnesota the year they were together.
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