Strong Safety

[Luxusdk]

You forgetting HT Manx - 3-4-4 Base with 5-2-4 nickle

Why i keep thinking we going Shazier and then Tuitt - LB/S and DE/DT And then you can start build as you want

 

[Peachhead]

Re: Deone Buchannon

Forty in less than 4.5? Check.
Vertical leap over 36"? Check.
Broad jump over 10'? Check.
Instinctive? Yep, with 14 INTs over his career, has them in G-d-given ways.
Afraid to take on the run? Nope. Attacks like a "bowling ball," according to the Ourlads.
Durability issues? No, four year letterman.
Three-cone drill in less than seven seconds? Check.
Freakish long wingspan? Check, with 78" inches!
High football IQ? Check. Utilized in multiple, creative ways in college.
Good leadership? Check. Multiyear captain for the Cougars of Washington State.

What's not to like about a proved performer with elite athleticism in a 6'1", 216-pound body in the first? Count me as sold. We can go TE in the second with that Iowa player.

I'm totally there with on Buchannon. One of my favorite players this year. I think a lot of the better known gurus and draft sites are sleeping on the dude. I'm totally with you on the desperate need at SS. IMO only interior OL need is bigger.

But 1st round, I think, is too early for Buchannon. However I will be sweating bullets hoping he makes it to our 2nd round pick.

 

[manxman2601]

You forgetting HT Manx - 3-4-4 Base with 5-2-4 nickle

Why i keep thinking we going Shazier and then Tuitt - LB/S and DE/DT And then you can start build as you want

What's "HT"?

Shazier/Tuitt might just be my favourite possible 1-2 now. Great call.

 

[Peachhead]

I think BB moving away from the traditional SS. Seems he'd rather 4 CB's in at all times. That's why I find this whole Ryan moving to safety thing interesting.

If he gets that traditional SS ( Adrian Wilson) I think it's to play him at LB or closer to the line of scrimmage on passing downs. And if that's the case, I actually think that's a position Tavon Wilson could excel at believe it or not.

I think the first paragraph is more BB designing stuff for the personnel he had. Rather how he'd prefer to do things.

Sorry, but I don't share your confidence in T. Wilson or especially A. Wilson. Hopefully Harmon can make the 2nd year leap and take that position next to McCourty or we draft someone who works well at SS.

 

[karte4u]

Deone Buccanon is a nice option for SS.
But 29th pick is too high for him to be drafted at and he might not be available at our 2nd round pick.
If the Pats trade down from the 1st round, they can get an extra second round pick (and obviously some other picks) which they can use on Deone Buccanon.
But if they dont, I would like them to pick Ahmad Dixon in the 4th round. He is a good hard hitting safety too.
Daneil Manning was released by Texans. He was due 4.5M and he didnt want to take a paycut.
What are your thoughts about getting him for a 1yr 4M deal or a short term deal?

 

[patfanken]

Ken, we've never seen a Patriots' defense with Revis, McCourty and Browner prowling the backfield. Don't you think that could affect the role the 2nd safety plays?

You have a keen sense of the obvious, PC. Another reason why the old label of SS has less and less meaning every year. Don't forget that back when Rodney was the archetype SS, most teams played in various zone defenses most of the time. Now, in order to combat the high flying pass offenses we are seeing, more teams are looking for players who can play man.

Think about it. When the Pats end up with a single high S (which they did a lot last year). There really is no SS. Just the FS and 3-5 other DB's They could all be CB's and we wouldn't notice.

As offenses changed, FB because a minor position. As teams go more and more to multiple receiver/spread formations, the position of SS is becoming less important. Christ, because of all the passing, LB's aren't too far behind. It won't be long before we start seeing 4 DLmen, a single LB, and 6 DB's become common place. And 220lb LB's wil be back in style.

 

[Big-T]

Ninkovich-Kelly-Wilfork-Armstead-Jones
Collins-Mayo
Browner-McCourty-Dennard-Revis​

Man to man with Browner, Dennard & Revis, McCourty patrolling center field, Collins on the TE. Already doable with the current roster so just think how good that would be with some rookies to add into a rotation.

Don't need a Strong Safety to be effective especially when Collins can essentially fill in most of the duties anyway and 5-2-4 can morph into a 3-4 or 4-3 easily (Ninkovich drops back and it's a 4-3, Nink & Jones drop back to make it 3-4) and the 3 corners means the it's "safe" to use against a team that uses 3 WRs.

Looking at it now, I'm liking 5-2-4 more and more as a base defense due to how it can morph in and out of looks without changing personnel - which is handy against the no huddle, it should generate plenty of pressure and it does away with the "need" for a Strong Safety.

 

[manxman2601]

​

Ninkovich-Kelly-Wilfork-Armstead-Jones
Collins-Mayo
Browner-McCourty-Dennard-Revis​

Man to man with Browner, Dennard & Revis, McCourty patrolling center field, Collins on the TE. Already doable with the current roster so just think how good that would be with some rookies to add into a rotation.

Don't need a Strong Safety to be effective especially when Collins can essentially fill in most of the duties anyway and 5-2-4 can morph into a 3-4 or 4-3 easily (Ninkovich drops back and it's a 4-3, Nink & Jones drop back to make it 3-4) and the 3 corners means the it's "safe" to use against a team that uses 3 WRs.

Looking at it now, I'm liking 5-2-4 more and more as a base defense due to how it can morph in and out of looks without changing personnel - which is handy against the no huddle, it should generate plenty of pressure and it does away with the "need" for a Strong Safety.

Ninkovich-Kelly-Armstead-Chandler Jones
Collins-Mayo
Shazier
Revis-McCourty-Browner​

That's what I'd like to see. It enables you to be creative in how you use the two most athletic front seven players in Collins and Shazier.

 

[patchick]

Think about it. When the Pats end up with a single high S (which they did a lot last year). There really is no SS. Just the FS and 3-5 other DB's They could all be CB's and we wouldn't notice.

As offenses changed, FB because a minor position. As teams go more and more to multiple receiver/spread formations, the position of SS is becoming less important. Christ, because of all the passing, LB's aren't too far behind. It won't be long before we start seeing 4 DLmen, a single LB, and 6 DB's become common place. And 220lb LB's wil be back in style.

I'm not sure we actually disagree, Ken. I haven't been picturing a return to the classic SS role in a 4-main backfield. It's more about the rise various packages featuring what you might choose to call "220lb LB's." (Rodney Harrison being, of course, 220 lbs.) It's a type of player and skill set the Patriots have lacked that I expect them to start targeting.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Ninkovich-Kelly-Armstead-Chandler Jones
Collins-Mayo
Shazier
Revis-McCourty-Browner​

That's what I'd like to see. It enables you to be creative in how you use the two most athletic front seven players in Collins and Shazier.

While I don't have an issue with that scheme (I actually like the versatility a hybrid SS/LB gives us on the field and with roster composition), I just don't think Shazier is the right guy. For me there are two issues, first, even though Shazier is certainly an athletic specimen, I just didn't see him in coverage very often on film. To me athleticism and football skill are not the same thing, so even though he may have the athleticism to play deep, is he worth risking a 1st round pick that he has the coverage skills to play there despite not showing it on film? To me he is a guy who's instincts are to go after the ball, trying to move him away from that is a gamble for me.

My second concern is my bigger one. I just think Shazier doesn't play in control enough for the Pats system, especially if he's asked to play in more of a coverage role. I've seen 'heat seeking missile' used to describe Shazier but for me that isn't a complement for the Pats system. To me he's a guy that is all over the field but not always around the ball and for the Pats defensive philosophy that scares the hell out of me. For a team like Seattle where he can just swarm to the ball I think he could be excellent. For a team like the Pats where he will have a lot more specific assignments and more focus on doing his job I think he could struggle. If we didn't have Collins I would be more interested in Shazier because I think they would fill a similar role here, not necissarily and every down LBer but someone they can use in specific ways to make plays. But Collins takes all that value away from Shazier in that role and I can't justify spending such a high pick on him as a primary backup.

 

[manxman2601]

While I don't have an issue with that scheme (I actually like the versatility a hybrid SS/LB gives us on the field and with roster composition), I just don't think Shazier is the right guy. For me there are two issues, first, even though Shazier is certainly an athletic specimen, I just didn't see him in coverage very often on film. To me athleticism and football skill are not the same thing, so even though he may have the athleticism to play deep, is he worth risking a 1st round pick that he has the coverage skills to play there despite not showing it on film? To me he is a guy who's instincts are to go after the ball, trying to move him away from that is a gamble for me.

My second concern is my bigger one. I just think Shazier doesn't play in control enough for the Pats system, especially if he's asked to play in more of a coverage role. I've seen 'heat seeking missile' used to describe Shazier but for me that isn't a complement for the Pats system. To me he's a guy that is all over the field but not always around the ball and for the Pats defensive philosophy that scares the hell out of me. For a team like Seattle where he can just swarm to the ball I think he could be excellent. For a team like the Pats where he will have a lot more specific assignments and more focus on doing his job I think he could struggle. If we didn't have Collins I would be more interested in Shazier because I think they would fill a similar role here, not necissarily and every down LBer but someone they can use in specific ways to make plays. But Collins takes all that value away from Shazier in that role and I can't justify spending such a high pick on him as a primary backup.

I don't agree. Does he need coaching? For sure, show me an rookie that doesn't. It took Collins almost a whole season to get the defense enough to be an active part of it. Shazier has played in a well developed system and has the athletic upside to take advantage of his coaching just as Jamie Collins did. The good thing is, with Adrian Wilson, there's no need to rush Shazier in if he doesn't 'get it' immediately. And, to be honest, considering the amount of third and longs this defense was giving up last year, this defense is in dire need of a "heat-seeking missile". It should also be noted that we showed interest in two linebackers, Wesley Woodyard and Dekoda Watson, that ran in the 4.5s so the interest seems to be their. whether that's Shazier or KPL is a matter of how BB perceives their respective value and the value he puts on that role.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I don't agree. Does he need coaching? For sure, show me an rookie that doesn't. It took Collins almost a whole season to get the defense enough to be an active part of it. Shazier has played in a well developed system and has the athletic upside to take advantage of his coaching just as Jamie Collins did. The good thing is, with Adrian Wilson, there's no need to rush Shazier in if he doesn't 'get it' immediately. And, to be honest, considering the amount of third and longs this defense was giving up last year, this defense is in dire need of a "heat-seeking missile". It should also be noted that we showed interest in two linebackers, Wesley Woodyard and Dekoda Watson, that ran in the 4.5s so the interest seems to be their. whether that's Shazier or KPL is a matter of how BB perceives their respective value and the value he puts on that role.

I'm not arguing that we don't need another athletic LBer, I just don't think Shazier is that guy. I think Collins duplicates Shazier's strengths and I haven't seen the football skill set to confidently project him as a deeper coverage LBer/SS. To spend a first round pick on that to me would be a mistake when you could get a guy like KPL in the 4th or 5th round who I think is a much better fit. I think he is more versatile because he is a lot more controlled and sound in his assignments and he has a lot more experience in coverage. I just don't see the value in Shazier when I think he is such a risk trying to project him to the role you are looking at.

 

[manxman2601]

I'm not arguing that we don't need another athletic LBer, I just don't think Shazier is that guy. I think Collins duplicates Shazier's strengths and I haven't seen the football skill set to confidently project him as a deeper coverage LBer/SS. To spend a first round pick on that to me would be a mistake when you could get a guy like KPL in the 4th or 5th round who I think is a much better fit. I think he is more versatile because he is a lot more controlled and sound in his assignments and he has a lot more experience in coverage. I just don't see the value in Shazier when I think he is such a risk trying to project him to the role you are looking at.

I think it's hard to argue about how sound someone is in their assignments without knowing what those assignments are. I'm a big fan of KPL and I like his value in day three but I don't think he's Shazier. But then I've been a fan of Shazier for a while.

 

[Wilfork#75]

I think it's hard to argue about how sound someone is in their assignments without knowing what those assignments are. I'm a big fan of KPL and I like his value in day three but I don't think he's Shazier. But then I've been a fan of Shazier for a while.

That's a fair point. I guess a better way to state it is I have seen KPL successfully do more things that I think would translate to his role in the Pats system than I have with Shazier.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Unless there's an amazing value to be had - Dix or Pryor, I would be shocked to see the Pats go S with the first pick, or even their second pick.

It's not their most pressing need, by a long shot.

If Pryor falls, they gotta take him. That would be a scary secondary. Of course what do I know, BB has does it to all of us before. We get out binkies and then the binky is available when the Patriots pick and then .....BB trades down...:bricks:

There is actually a good possibility that Pryor falls if teams put too much stock in his less-than-expected Combine numbers; I don't care because I have seen what he can do on the field.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

That's a fair point. I guess a better way to state it is I have seen KPL successfully do more things that I think would translate to his role in the Pats system than I have with Shazier.

I agree, I think we just need a versatile guy that can cover first and foremost, and also blitz. Not vice versa I see Shazier as more of a pressure & fly around guy.

Basically we need a Lavonte David type.

 

[50-yard-line]

I agree, I think we just need a versatile guy that can cover first and foremost, and also blitz. Not vice versa I see Shazier as more of a pressure & fly around guy.

Basically we need a Lavonte David type.

How about this guy?

Jeremiah Attaochu Draft Profile ? NFL.com

I think he has tremendous upside. Or Max Bullough would be another one.

I expect the Pats to use A Wilson as a cover LB this year, if he can play at all. Attaochu is a great edge rusher and will deliver all the pop you want.

 

[manxman2601]

I appreciate an argument that KPL might be more disciplined than Shazier (for now), but can I just put on record the reminder that Shazier ran a 4.38* at his pro day.

OK. Back to regular programming


* I know the caveats, you don't need to remind me.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

How about this guy?



Jeremiah Attaochu Draft Profile ? NFL.com



I think he has tremendous upside. Or Max Bullough would be another one.



I expect the Pats to use A Wilson as a cover LB this year, if he can play at all. Attaochu is a great edge rusher and will deliver all the pop you want.

He's interesting.

I have seen him tossed around as a fit but he would be a DE in the 4-3 and a OLB in the 3-4 when we switched. His report kind of reads like Nink's would if he was more raw and wasn't a vet. The fact that he is still learning the game and so young gives him a ton of upside tho.

I was thinking more of a coverage backer. The idea that the SS position is slowly withering away due to the progression of offenses and partially to these smaller Tweener LB's that are being called upon to address those match-ups...The 230lb+ variety BB wouldn't touch in previous years.

But I'm with you that DE opposite Jones needs to be upgraded on passing downs. I love Nink on early downs but we can do better.

 

[Luxusdk]

I'm not arguing that we don't need another athletic LBer, I just don't think Shazier is that guy. I think Collins duplicates Shazier's strengths and I haven't seen the football skill set to confidently project him as a deeper coverage LBer/SS. To spend a first round pick on that to me would be a mistake when you could get a guy like KPL in the 4th or 5th round who I think is a much better fit. I think he is more versatile because he is a lot more controlled and sound in his assignments and he has a lot more experience in coverage. I just don't see the value in Shazier when I think he is such a risk trying to project him to the role you are looking at.

I dont get why Collins of/and style play remove Shazier as a option. Collins is a SOLB where Shazier is WOLB. And the point is NOT to have Shazier playing safety, but haveing one of Mayo, Shazier and Collins "Patroling".

KPL is a good pick later as "Fletcher" ST/Backup guy, but he's upside is limited, where Shazier is huge. Sure he have flaws in the game,all rookies have flaws.

The backup roll / picking is even more strange. #75 you lead the way yourself for a F...... NT. Thats my friend is as much of a backup roll as SS. NT/SS Round 3>