Strong Safety

[Wilfork#75]

I dont get why Collins of/and style play remove Shazier as a option. Collins is a SOLB where Shazier is WOLB. And the point is NOT to have Shazier playing safety, but haveing one of Mayo, Shazier and Collins "Patroling".

KPL is a good pick later as "Fletcher" ST/Backup guy, but he's upside is limited, where Shazier is huge. Sure he have flaws in the game,all rookies have flaws.

The backup roll / picking is even more strange. #75 you lead the way yourself for a F...... NT. Thats my friend is as much of a backup roll as SS. NT/SS Round 3>

The reason I think Collins would cancel Shazier for me is I don't like Shazier as a base LBer for this team. I don't think he is very good against the run, he is an average tackler (he was a poor tackler in 2012), he isn't very good taking on blocks (weak, ends up on the ground way too much), I don't think he has great instincts and he's not very disciplined (shoots the wrong gaps, over-pursues). What I think his strengths are and what I think his best role would be is as a matchup weapon where he uses his freak athleticism to create havoc. Unfortunately I think that is Collins best role also, where he can be that 'heat seeking missile' and make plays. I don't think you can have too many of those types of players on the field at the same time though because it can open up holes in other areas and with Collins on the roster already I don't like the value of Shazier in the 1st round. We also have Mayo as a WLB so I think Shazier is a backup and roleplayer in any case.

In terms of KPL vs Shazier, they are essentially the same size (Shazier is 5lbs heavier). I think their roles would be similar and I would want to pair either of them with a more traditional LBer (I love the value of Max Bullough in the later rounds). I just think KPL (or any of the other athletic LBers in the middle rounds) offer more value than Shazier in the 1st.

Its funny you mentioned my wanting a NT because if we had a stronger run defending front 4 I would probably be more open to taking someone like Shazier. As I have said in other threads, the reason I want a NT is because with our ability to hopefully play more single safety press man coverage, if we can stop the run with limited resources up front we have more freedom to attack with out LBers. Unfortunately I don't have much confidence in Wilfork returning to his dominant self inside and the rest of our DT's aren't great run stuffers, that is why I would love to add Louis Nix inside. If we had a dominant run stuffing front 4 with our secondary I could see more playmaking out of our LBers, but if we move away from the bigger DTs like most people seem to want to, our LBers will have a much greater run stopping responsibility.

 

[Luxusdk]

But you want a NT like Nix WHO cost a first, where you could have McCullers for a 3 or 4 WHO might do a even better job, if its only about stopping the run. I Agree we had troubles stopping the run, but we was also in injury hell, not that i see Vince return to 2011 greatness, but less can do it. What i dont like, is useing a 1 round pick on a NT WHO may sit out the first year or 2 IF Vince returns for real. If they didn't resign Vince, then Nix would make more sense, but with the situation Patriots have created, Getting a NT late day 2 or day 3 is better.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

But you want a NT like Nix WHO cost a first, where you could have McCullers for a 3 or 4 WHO might do a even better job, if its only about stopping the run. I Agree we had troubles stopping the run, but we was also in injury hell, not that i see Vince return to 2011 greatness, but less can do it. What i dont like, is useing a 1 round pick on a NT WHO may sit out the first year or 2 IF Vince returns for real. If they didn't resign Vince, then Nix would make more sense, but with the situation Patriots have created, Getting a NT late day 2 or day 3 is better.

I agree with #75 100% on Shazier. I don't think he cracks the starting lineup here... but I also agree with you about applying the same value logic to Nix.

It all comes down to one's assessments. If he believes that Nix is the clear blue chip NT in this draft then that changes things as the drop off would be more steep in his estimation. Getting a blue chip NT @ 29 is a coup even if he sits for a year in light of Vince not being long for this roster.

 

[manxman2601]

Mayo has sold me on the Cover-1/ Cover-1 robber suitability for this team which leaves me to thinking:

1. If the Logan Ryan/devin McCourty at safety talk is right then Ryan's ball skills makes him the better bet for the 'robber' position.

2. If we're filling it in the draft, one would have to think that Shazier or Bucannon would be the ideal fits. Telvin Smith and KPL also fit the position. and what about Dion Bailey who we haven't really discussed at all.

3. In one of the articles that Mayo posted about the 'robber' scheme, they used Sean Lee as an example of an ideal 'robber'. Jerod Mayo anyone? That frees up Collins to play man coverage on a back or tight end, reduces the need for a second safety and allows us to get an additional CB (Dennard, Ryan, Arrington) on the field which plays to our roster strengths.

 

[State]

If Pryor falls, they gotta take him. That would be a scary secondary.

There is actually a good possibility that Pryor falls if teams put too much stock in his less-than-expected Combine numbers; I don't care because I have seen what he can do on the field.

Yeah, speaking of which, Deone Bucannon will probably go late in the first, early in the second. There's a big drop-off from Ha-Ha Clinton and these two--probably nothing else until the fourth round, says Pat Kirwan. I'm not sure if he's right about that with Jimmy Ward.

My thinking is that we definitely need an explosive athlete. Bucannon is better in every category than Pryor: size, speed, quickness, arm length, vertical, broad jump. To me, as someone who saw Bruce Irvin as a potential first for us--and caught a lot of flak from other posters--even I underestimated what would happen as he was taken 15 by the Seahawks as I remember--I see too much elite athleticism and long-term production to think we can get Deone late in the second. There's this smack of his tight hips, when Pryor wasn't called on to cover slot receivers. Pryor just went head hunting and played vanilla in pass coverage as far as I can tell. Don't be blinded by his highlight reel hits.

Pryor or Bucannon for us in the first; go for TE or a big ugly lineman in the second. Chung is a fall-back. Shouldn't be a starter. Tavon Wilson is a disaster waiting to happen in anything other than a nickel package. We have big needs at TE and safety. Safety and TE. And it looks a whole lot easier to go safety first.

My hope:

First (don't trade down): Bucannon or Pryor.
Second: TE Amaro or Niklas.

 

[Coach42]

I'd prefer to see a bigger CB converted to SS than any of the available pure safety options. Either Exum or SJB would be fantastic in that role. The Kam Chancellor's of the world are dinosaurs with the illegal contact rules the way they are now. The only reason he is able to survive in Seattle is that their defensive front is so good he only ever has to cover anyone of .5 seconds. We don't get that kind of pressure here, a thumper of a safety with limited coverage skills would absolutely be exposed. Especially against the elite QBs like Manning who feast on poor coverage match ups. Give me coverage skills first, then worry about physicality.

 

[BobDigital]

Getting a true SS be nice but not a big time need. If one falls further then they should I would take them but no need to reach or even pick one near their value.

I take Pryor@29 and Ward@62 if they fall that far but I don't trade up for either or worry about not getting them.

 

[manxman2601]

A point Supafly made in the main thread is "what happens if McCourty gets injured?" It's a fair point, the safety position gets a whole lot thinner if McCourty is out for a long time. Harmon would backup McCourty's role I would think which leaves Tavon and Chung playing the other safety role. That wouldn't be a good position to be in.

 

[Coach42]

A point Supafly made in the main thread is "what happens if McCourty gets injured?" It's a fair point, the safety position gets a whole lot thinner if McCourty is out for a long time. Harmon would backup McCourty's role I would think which leaves Tavon and Chung playing the other safety role. That wouldn't be a good position to be in.

A potential Mccourty injury is just another reason to look for a safety who can cover first and hit second.

 

[dryheat44]

A point Supafly made in the main thread is "what happens if McCourty gets injured?" It's a fair point, the safety position gets a whole lot thinner if McCourty is out for a long time. Harmon would backup McCourty's role I would think which leaves Tavon and Chung playing the other safety role. That wouldn't be a good position to be in.

I think Tavon and Chung are in an either/or roster situation, which makes your point more relevant. I fully expect a high pick to be used on safety. I think Pryor's our guy if he's there....and Ward a strong possibility if not.

 

[stelfans]

I think Tavon and Chung are in an either/or roster situation, which makes your point more relevant. I fully expect a high pick to be used on safety. I think Pryor's our guy if he's there....and Ward a strong possibility if not.

A guy i like in that robber role is Sunseri. Has the smarts(labeled as a coach on the field), the instincts, good against the run, former linebacker, better playing close to the box and Saban actually played him in that role at alabama. Plus a good special teamer.

With Chung replacing Wilson i think they are clearly showing they want someone like that. And obviously, Tavon Wilson.

All this to say that i love that cover 1 robber idea.

 

[BelichickFan]

A point Supafly made in the main thread is "what happens if McCourty gets injured?" It's a fair point, the safety position gets a whole lot thinner if McCourty is out for a long time. Harmon would backup McCourty's role I would think which leaves Tavon and Chung playing the other safety role. That wouldn't be a good position to be in.

On Twitter Mike Loyko confirmed (through his sources) that Belichick has always liked Ryan as a Safety. However you configure and order them I expect McCourtey, Ryan, Harmon as the top 3 safetys this year.


Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko Apr 3
In regards to Patrick Chung signing.. I'm told it's with an eye towards Special Teams coverage units. Pairing up him and Slater.

Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko Apr 3
When Browner returns I believe there is a very very good chance Logan Ryan is the starting FS.. Bill Belichick has "always wanted him there"

With Bill's liking of moving CB to Safety I think there's a better chance we draft a CB than a Safety this year, btw. If Ryan moves we have Revis (one year), Browner (4 game suspension), Dennard (one false move away), Arrington. I guess they like Justin Green but I think we could use competition for that 5th spot.

 

[mayoclinic]

On Twitter Mike Loyko confirmed (through his sources) that Belichick has always liked Ryan as a Safety. However you configure and order them I expect McCourtey, Ryan, Harmon as the top 3 safetys this year.


Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko Apr 3
In regards to Patrick Chung signing.. I'm told it's with an eye towards Special Teams coverage units. Pairing up him and Slater.

Mike Loyko ‏@NEPD_Loyko Apr 3
When Browner returns I believe there is a very very good chance Logan Ryan is the starting FS.. Bill Belichick has "always wanted him there"

I think this makes a fair amount of sense. Ryan excelled in zone coverage and is clearly a ballhawk. He is instinctiveness and field awareness that allow him to play faster than his timed speed, and which would be accentuated by moving him to safety. BB has spoken quite openly about these traits:

The New England Patriots have suffered through roster attrition on both sides of the ball this season, and the fact that they enter the 2013 postseason with a 12-4 record and the AFC’s second seed is a tribute to the job that Bill Belichick has done with his charges. As much as Tom Brady has defined New England’s offense in a difficult season, Belichick has done one of his best jobs as a defensive mastermind by mixing veteran and young players to form a defense that has been required to pull more of the weight than in recent years.

One player who has proven worthy of Belichick’s trust in a big hurry is rookie cornerback Logan Ryan. The Rutgers alum had anywhere from a second to fifth-round grade among various media analysts, and there were some who simply wondered who Ryan was when New England jumped with the 83rd overall pick. At 5-foot-11 and 195 pounds, and without overwhelming trail speed, Ryan had learned to use his intelligence and instinct to make himself faster in a football sense. And he thrives in Belichick’s complex defenses from the start. Ryan’s 53.3 quarterback rating allowed is the NFL’s second-best this season — only Seattle’s Richard Sherman has made life more difficult for enemy signal-callers. Ryan has allowed just 27 catches in 53 targets for 372 yards, with five interceptions and three touchdowns. In addition, he’s a fine blitzer from the slot — he understands how disguise coverage looks and read plays to anticipate when it’s best to peel off and go after the quarterback.

“I think that was a big strong point of Logan’s,” Belichick said of Ryan’s football acumen on Dec. 23. “He was a very productive player in college. I think that a lot of the league-wide, a lot of the interest and the grades on him were high relative to his production. I think probably what hurt him a little bit was his 40 time at the combine [4.53], just in terms of where he was drafted.

“But as we’ve seen this year throughout the year, it’s not only ball skills but I’d say an awareness or an instinctiveness, if you will, in terms of when to look for the ball, having an awareness of the ball being thrown and near his location and anticipating routes and being able to react to those routes sometimes a little bit before the ball is thrown and in some cases, maybe if he’s reading the quarterback a little bit before the receiver can get into his breaks. He’s had a number of plays like that, both in games and throughout the year in practices where you see his awareness and his instinctiveness, his understanding of the passing game and kind of getting that little one half step, split-second jump on the play. That’s shown up. He’s got good ball skills and good hands. I don’t think that’s ever been a question. But I think it’s that awareness and instinctiveness that’s obviously so hard to teach but it’s something that he just naturally does.”

The All-22: Michael Bennett, Logan Ryan among hidden gems for NFL?s top*seeds | Audibles - SI.com

Pretty strong stuff coming from BB about a rookie. I can see where BB would like to get that kind of awareness and instinctiveness on the field more often, and put it in a position where it frees Ryan up to make plays. He could potentially be a more disciplined version of Brandon Meriweather - or essentially what Jimmy Ward looks to be. Obviously, there would be some transition, but given how Devin McCourty transitioned to safety, it doesn't seem like a huge leap. The Pats clearly have an existence proof in making that transition successfully.

Revis-Browner-Dennard at CB with Arrington in the dime and McCourty-Ryan at safety with Harmon backing them up would be a very interesting secondary.

 

[dryheat44]

I think McCourty and Ryan would present duplicative skill sets at the safety slots--which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm in favor of getting the most talented group on the field, but I think his skills are better utilized at CB.

 

[All22PatsFan]

I think this makes a fair amount of sense. Ryan excelled in zone coverage and is clearly a ballhawk. He is instinctiveness and field awareness that allow him to play faster than his timed speed, and which would be accentuated by moving him to safety. BB has spoken quite openly about these traits:



The All-22: Michael Bennett, Logan Ryan among hidden gems for NFL?s top*seeds | Audibles - SI.com

Pretty strong stuff coming from BB about a rookie. I can see where BB would like to get that kind of awareness and instinctiveness on the field more often, and put it in a position where it frees Ryan up to make plays. He could potentially be a more disciplined version of Brandon Meriweather - or essentially what Jimmy Ward looks to be. Obviously, there would be some transition, but given how Devin McCourty transitioned to safety, it doesn't seem like a huge leap. The Pats clearly have an existence proof in making that transition successfully.

Revis-Browner-Dennard at CB with Arrington in the dime and McCourty-Ryan at safety with Harmon backing them up would be a very interesting secondary.

I agree with you I think Ryan could have been what they wanted in Gregory.

Here are my thoughts on the Safety position:
I think the answer is Logan Ryan, although he isn't super physical he could still excel at SS. McCourty is going to be up top in single high looks (most of the time) leaving Ryan in the box, there he could excel in a robber role, in man coverage, blitzing and against the run. Harmon should be able to back them both up.

 

[BelichickFan]

I think McCourty and Ryan would present duplicative skill sets at the safety slots--which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm in favor of getting the most talented group on the field, but I think his skills are better utilized at CB.

The problem is Ryan isn't a great athlete. He's super quick (6.69 three cone) but his long speed and his explosiveness (BJ, VJ) are below average for a CB. At Safety that lack of athleticism but ability turn turn quickly should work fine, we know he can find the ball. I hope this is the plan, I'd love the chess moves that could be made by having a Nickel with 5 CB or a base with 4.

We wouldn't have a banger (except games against teams that run a lot in which Chung would likely get a lot of snaps) but these guys can all tackle.

 

[manxman2601]

Well if Ryan is the answer at safety opposite McCourty and ably backed up by Harmon, then I really hope that the LB/S is high on the radar so that we can add beef against the run if needed. The advantage here is that Ryan wouldn't even need to come off the field because he can just be moved to the slot.

 

[State]

McCourtey is an all-pro FS. Why would we mess with that? I love his range.

I agree with Pete Prisco in the Patriots looking for a Kam Chancelor in Louisville's Calvin Pryor. We may be able to trade down and take him early in the second.

Examining New England Patriots Secondary Following Adrian Wilson's Release

I just prefer the _vastly underrated_ Deone Bucannon a bit more, as long as he can cover better than his (unjust) reputation says he can. He has a compelling blend of athleticism, desire to hit, ability to diagnose the play as either running or pass, and coachability.

All this discussion is a result of the terrible pick of Tavon Wilson in the second a couple of years ago. Three year starter with three career INTs. Miniscule production at Illinois. Casey Hayward, drafted later that round, had 15 career INTs for Vandy, despite being the unquestioned leader on defense, something that couldn't be said of Tavon Wilson, who looks to be a strong candidate to be released with Patrick Chung coming back.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well if Logan Ryan really is the answer at safety... that would mean our secondary needs are pretty much filled?

I keep going back to Kyle Fuller though. If he lasts till 29. He could be the successor to Revis, if he decides to skip town next year. And he also has versatility to switch to safety if need be since he is such a solid tackler for a CB.

San Francisco 49ers: Scouting Virginia Tech Cornerback Kyle Fuller | Bleacher Report

My only big concern is his injury history. He missed 11 games in college and had hernia surgery. But how many times can you reinjure your hernia?

 

[MrNathanDrake]

That Tavon Wilson pick was such a waste.

He probably will be cut. You don't use 2nd rounders on these types.