Steelers sign Ron Mexico (a/k/a Dogkiller)

[Tunescribe]

Oh Christ, wait until my wife finds out.. then during the whole Steelers Game she will rant and rave about how she cannot believe that the Steelers signed him to their team.

Why is that unreasonable? She sounds like a smart woman, and you should count your blessings she cares enough to watch.

 

[BTTA]

We can speculate on "how well" he was rehabbed. My wife is very close to the people who actually managed that process and this is what she got from them:

• It was clear that he was completely numb to the feelings of the animals and utterly surprised that people were so upset about this. It was as if he was a fish that learned that the entire world wasn't made of water; he was that ignorant and blind.
  
• He spent a lot of time with people who were providing him with a different way to think and feel about it, and with people and dogs who had healthy relationships.

Beyond that, the information was tightly controlled. It was clear that part of the agreement between him, the Humane Society, his agent and lawyers, and the courts was that the results of the rehab process would be private and not a topic of conversation.

So essentially, we'll never know.

The animal welfare field is still split about all this, similarly to the posts on this thread. Some can't ever forgive him and just want him locked up for decades. Others see the need for rehab and that his case can be useful on a larger scale. In reality, I suspect they all carry some of both positions.

There's also remaining question of how much of this is genetic (sociopathic, dominant aggressive behavior) and how much is cultural learning.

For our purposes, the fact that he was a Jet puts him in another category of human being altogether, so the above conversation is really secondary.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Capable? This is the guy who admitted he was unprepared to start given a week's notice, never mind coming in off the bench.

Stlrs are pissing away their money, IMHO.

Respect. Yup, very capable. The dude was not prepared because he wanted to be a starter and he was playing for an organization that's a sideshow for decades now. Who was he throwing to, may I ask? I'll wait. Few QB's could be successful for the Jets organization.

He was never going to be a HOF QB because he did not have a lot of the tools to be that. But as far as being capable, he absolutely is that, IMO. Playing for Tomlin and an organization that can contend will change that. We should know that very well because there is a thread about our very own Randy Moss who did the same thing. How did Branch do once he came back to NE and before he left? You can't always judge a player looking through a black-and-white lens. The system, the team and the leadership matter more than you think. But alas, you can think whatever you'd like, my good sir. It is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Bill Lee]

The dude was not prepared because he wanted to be a starter and he was playing for an organization that's a sideshow for decades now.

You are entitled to your opinions and your painful analogies. In turn I'll give you some back: The Pats were a sideshow for decades back when Drew Bledsoe was injured but it's pretty clear Tom Brady was prepared to make something of his opportunity. Mike Vick: not so much.

 

[PatsBoy12]

You are entitled to your opinions and your painful analogies. In turn I'll give you some back: The Pats were a sideshow for decades back when Drew Bledsoe was injured but it's pretty clear Tom Brady was prepared to make something of his opportunity. Mike Vick: not so much.

The Pats? They were in the SB in 1996, no? Okay. Good day. I should have known better than to respond to foolishness.

 

[Tunescribe]

We can speculate on "how well" he was rehabbed. My wife is very close to the people who actually managed that process and this is what she got from them:

• It was clear that he was completely numb to the feelings of the animals and utterly surprised that people were so upset about this. It was as if he was a fish that learned that the entire world wasn't made of water; he was that ignorant and blind.
  
• He spent a lot of time with people who were providing him with a different way to think and feel about it, and with people and dogs who had healthy relationships.

Beyond that, the information was tightly controlled. It was clear that part of the agreement between him, the Humane Society, his agent and lawyers, and the courts was that the results of the rehab process would be private and not a topic of conversation.

So essentially, we'll never know.

The animal welfare field is still split about all this, similarly to the posts on this thread. Some can't ever forgive him and just want him locked up for decades. Others see the need for rehab and that his case can be useful on a larger scale. In reality, I suspect they all carry some of both positions.

There's also remaining question of how much of this is genetic (sociopathic, dominant aggressive behavior) and how much is cultural learning.

For our purposes, the fact that he was a Jet puts him in another category of human being altogether, so the above conversation is really secondary.

I'd venture a guess that sociopathy isn't cured by a year in prison. Then there's the Ron Mexico incident, the airport reefer-in-bottle incident, the lying to Arthur Blank and Mora, admitting he was unprepared to play for the Jets when Smith went down, etc., etc. Vick is scum. Hard to believe the Steelers are that desperate.

 

[DarrylS]

Why is that unreasonable? She sounds like a smart woman, and you should count your blessings she cares enough to watch.

We watch all Pats games together and even during the superbowl would prefer to stay home without distraction..

She is a huge fan, but gets a tad obsessive over Michael Vick..

 

[primetime]

I'd venture a guess that sociopathy isn't cured by a year in prison. Then there's the Ron Mexico incident, the airport reefer-in-bottle incident, the lying to Arthur Blank and Mora, admitting he was unprepared to play for the Jets when Smith went down, etc., etc. Vick is scum. Hard to believe the Steelers are that desperate.

His point was that there is a significant element of cultural learning here, that it may not be mental illness. People eat dogs in East Asia; this hardly makes them scum, even if your particular Western sensibilities don't like it. People in America work on factory farms and in mechanized slaughterhouses which make Vick's backyard look mundane, but this doesn't make them scum, nor does eating the products of those slaughterhouses. Systems are important.

The other incidents Vick was involved with just sound like immaturity (he had weed and used an alias to get tested for herpes), not sociopathy. As for being unprepared for the Jets, that whole thing sounded like him being more self-critical than he needed to be about sub-par play, rather than it being a referendum on his personality.

And, again, you say that it's "hard to believe the Steelers are that desperate" but the Steelers' starting QB is a repeat rapist, which is more likely the product of sociopathy than anything Vick was involved in.

 

[Tunescribe]

His point was that there is a significant element of cultural learning here, that it may not be mental illness. People eat dogs in East Asia; this hardly makes them scum, even if your particular Western sensibilities don't like it. People in America work on factory farms and in mechanized slaughterhouses which make Vick's backyard look mundane, but this doesn't make them scum, nor does eating the products of those slaughterhouses. Systems are important.

The other incidents Vick was involved with just sound like immaturity (he had weed and used an alias to get tested for herpes), not sociopathy. As for being unprepared for the Jets, that whole thing sounded like him being more self-critical than he needed to be about sub-par play, rather than it being a referendum on his personality.

And, again, you say that it's "hard to believe the Steelers are that desperate" but the Steelers' starting QB is a repeat rapist, which is more likely the product of sociopathy than anything Vick was involved in.

Spare me the sanctimony and your ridiculously misplaced analogies. Vick killed those dogs for sport (illegal gambling, more specifically). He not just killed them, he cruelly tortured them. Dismiss it all you want as only dogs, but they were innocent sentient beings. What -- you think Vick just made a "mistake" and had been led astray by his "culture"? B.S.

 

[primetime]

Spare me the sanctimony and your ridiculously misplaced analogies. Vick killed those dogs for sport (illegal gambling, more specifically). He not just killed them, he cruelly tortured them. Dismiss it all you want as only dogs, but they were innocent sentient beings. What -- you think Vick just made a "mistake" and had been led astray by his "culture"? B.S.

The analogies aren't misplaced. Do you eat meat? If so, how do you justify it outside of cognitive dissonance, when industrial slaughterhouses are giant, inhumane torture centers for animals?

 

[Tunescribe]

The analogies aren't misplaced. Do you eat meat? If so, how do you justify it outside of cognitive dissonance, when industrial slaughterhouses are giant, inhumane torture centers for animals?

Now you're just being stupid; dragging corporate farming into the discussion as a means of comparison is nonsense. Vick didn't kill those dogs to feed anyone.

 

[primetime]

Now you're just being stupid; dragging corporate farming into the discussion as a means of comparison is nonsense. Vick didn't kill those dogs to feed anyone.

Animals are kept in and slaughtered on corporate farms in such conditions because it's cheaper and more efficient than it would be to keep them and kill them under humane conditions. It's not because these farms and their ownership are feeding people out of the goodness of their hearts.

I'm a meat eater myself, and not criticizing you for eating meat, but I have a hard time seeing the difference between corporations torturing animals to create a product for consumption and Vick torturing animals for the same, other than that one outcome of the production process happens to be legal and the other not.

 

[Tunescribe]

I have a hard time seeing the difference between corporations torturing animals to create a product for consumption and Vick torturing animals for the same

One of the most inane comments I've seen anywhere, not just here on Patsfans. You need to read up on what Vick did because making that comparison indicates you clearly do not know.

 

[Galeb]

Spare me the sanctimony and your ridiculously misplaced analogies. Vick killed those dogs for sport (illegal gambling, more specifically). He not just killed them, he cruelly tortured them. Dismiss it all you want as only dogs, but they were innocent sentient beings. What -- you think Vick just made a "mistake" and had been led astray by his "culture"? B.S.

Ignorance doesn't mean that someone isn't responsible for their actions. That said, immoral actions don't mean that we can't learn from our mistakes and become better people. Vick served his time in prison and is now trying to make a living. We can only speculate as to whether he truly learned his lesson.

Don't underestimate the power of our socialization and cultural influences. Many of our "founding fathers" owned people. Because sentience makes us 100% responsible for our actions, it is negligent to not seriously question one's own socialization. We all fail at it to one degree or another, but that by itself does not make one evil.

 

[Koma]

He used it as an alias on a police report when some chick accused him of assault for giving her genital herpes.

I'm reasonably sure, when that story broke, the NFL banned purchases of customized jerseys with the name "Mexico" on them. I don't know if that policy is still in effect.

 

[primetime]

One of the most inane comments I've seen anywhere, not just here on Patsfans. You need to read up on what Vick did because making that comparison indicates you clearly do not know.

I know what Vick did. You clearly do not know what factory farms are like, or else you are willfully pushing to cognitive dissonance right now. I choose to believe the former because I have more respect for your opinion than that. You should watch Food, Inc.

 

[Tunescribe]

I know what Vick did. You clearly do not know what factory farms are like, or else you are willfully pushing to cognitive dissonance right now. I choose to believe the former because I have more respect for your opinion than that. You should watch Food, Inc.

I OWN Food, Inc. on DVD. While factory farming is its own sad story, comparing it to Vick's sadistic treatment of dogs is nonsensical. Vick personally beat, stabbed, smashed, electrocuted and drowned dogs with his own bare hands for kicks. He forced them fight to the death. Other kinds of animals being brutally destroyed elsewhere for other reasons has no connection with Vick's uniquely horrific FEDERAL CRIME.

 

[Tunescribe]

Ignorance doesn't mean that someone isn't responsible for their actions. That said, immoral actions don't mean that we can't learn from our mistakes and become better people. Vick served his time in prison and is now trying to make a living. We can only speculate as to whether he truly learned his lesson.

Don't underestimate the power of our socialization and cultural influences. Many of our "founding fathers" owned people. Because sentience makes us 100% responsible for our actions, it is negligent to not seriously question one's own socialization. We all fail at it to one degree or another, but that by itself does not make one evil.

"Mistakes"? The elaborately organized nature of Vick's interstate dog-fighting/gambling enterprise indicated a deliberately calculated thought process far beyond 'hood culture leading him unwittingly astray. If what he did doesn't constitute a consciously evil act, nothing would.

 

[primetime]

I OWN Food, Inc. on DVD. While factory farming is its own sad story, comparing it to Vick's sadistic treatment of dogs is nonsensical. Vick personally beat, stabbed, smashed, electrocuted and drowned dogs with his own bare hands for kicks. He forced them fight to the death. Other kinds of animals being brutally destroyed elsewhere for other reasons has no connection with Vick's uniquely horrific FEDERAL CRIME.

So your argument is effectively that the same sadistic, inhumane treatment of animals is however different because one violates a legal statute and the other does not, or rather to the final analysis that one is routine and accepted while the other is considered deviant and "unique" by society and its juridical processes. I also suspect that this argument also hinges on perceived difference in moral status between, say, cows and chickens on one hand and dogs on the other, though you can correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, I'm not going to debate you further, because your mind seems very much set and these sorts of arguments can have no winners, but I want to lay bare the moral argument you're making.

 

[Galeb]

"Mistakes"? The elaborately organized nature of Vick's interstate dog-fighting/gambling enterprise indicated a deliberately calculated thought process far beyond 'hood culture leading him unwittingly astray. If what he did doesn't constitute a consciously evil act, nothing would.

The nature of owning people was deliberate, calculated, and repulsive too. I never said the act itself wasn't evil, but that someone can perform an "evil" act out of ignorance, and not actually be "evil". That doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for for their actions. The power to learn and regret past actions is part of the cost of being sentient.