SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady

[Patstopia]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

This seems to be how the journalist past the dead time in the season. No reason for them to stick with the facts when they can make it up as they go along. And after they finish it pool time.... Marco....
















Polo...

 

[Rob0729]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

Do you mean the Seymour that had to hold out to get his contract adjusted, or the Seymour who recently got traded the year his contract was coming to an end and he was going to be wanting one final mega-contract?

Seymour held out with two years left on his contract and the Pats gave him a bonus. The following year they gave him the highest contract.

Your take on "stepped up to the plate" and mine seem to differ. Signing a top player and then cutting him/trading him when they are still playing at a high level isn't what I consider "stepped up to the plate".

Then virtually no team steps up to the plate. Every team cuts and trades players when their value is less than the money they save or what another team gives up in compensation. Whether you agree or not, the Pats saw the first round pick in 2011 as more value than Seymour approaching 30. The general sentiment around the league is that they agree. Seymour still saw every penny of that contract eventhough the Raiders paid the last year.

They don't pay at the same level as other teams. It's not just the media that says this. The players themselves say this. Hell, Moss has said this quite publicly this year, even while still being under contract. You, and the rest, can keep on railing against this all you want, but it's not going to change the truth, and it's certainly not going to change the perception. I have no problem with the team keeping to a structure. I, personally, don't consider the team cheap, although I think it does display an excessive rigidity at times, both contractually and in general.

However, when you have a rigid structure that doesn't easily accommodate elite contracts for elite talent, and doesn't facilitate easy negotiations, you're going to get a reputation for being cheap and a pain in the ass, whether that reputation is 100% accurate or not. The Patriots are reaping what they sow, both for good and for ill, and it's obvious that BB & company are quite willing live with that, so I don't really see why the fans can't handle it as well.

First, Moss said what he said because he knows that he wants to be paid and the Patriots are going to view him as a 34 year old WR whose best years will behind him who could derail at any time and expect him to take a value deal.

The Pats have no problem paying elite players. That is BS. Seymour was given a contract that made him the highest paid defensive players at the time. Brady got a contract that made him the third highest player in the NFL at the time. Wilfork got a contract making him the highest paid 3-4 NT in league history (well, before Haynesworth resigned himself on converting to 3-4). Moss got a deal that made him one of the highest paid WRs in the league. There are four elite players who got elite contracts from the Patriots under Belichick.

 

[MassPats38]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

However, the attacks that posters here make towards the media every time a story comes out which is not 100% ballwashing of the Patriots just get ridiculous.

And your defense of an article decrying Patriots' practices is any less absurd? If there is a shred of verified fact to this story, I would not bash it. It has certainly been true with past negotiations, but Kraft has never publicly spoken on a player and getting a deal done prior to Brady in my recollection, which makes this negotiation somewhat different. I challenge you to find something meaningful in this article, Silver's or everything written on this particular topic to date. This type of writing is no better than the National Enquirer - take some obscure fact and build on it to the absurd. It won't be libel, but it is meaningful only for shock value.

The Colts pay a few players well and hope the dregs and rookie deals are enough to carry the team. The Patriots tend not to pay anyone at the top of the game, finding mid-priced talent fitting the system unless a particular player is not readily replaceable (e.g., Wilfork, and I would bet Brady). The Pats have 3 titles from recent history, the Colts have 1. I suspect the players viewed as valuable to Belichick (defensive line more than defensive backs) are the reason the Laws and Samuels are allowed to leave rather than receiving Champ Bailey-type dollars from the Patriots. Such is the reality of a salary cap in a team sport, for better or worse.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

What does an unbiased outsider consider his value? Is it the 16 million that crazy Al gave his corner or is more along the going right for top free agent corners like Samuel and Clemens of around $10 million a year. Can it really be more then $16 million? Your talking about paying 13 to 15% of your cap to a non quaterback or pass rusher. Revis is a great young player but A) he's under contract for 3 more seasons B) Al had to pay a premium to keep a player that wanted nothing to do with Oakland and C) paying QB money to a CB is probably going to set you up for major salary cap issues down the road. At some point if he's really asking for more then $16 million a year the Jets will have to consider making him play out the three 3 seasons or trading him for multiple picks.

The rate for top CBs is not $10 million a year. That was the top rate circa 2008. In 2010, above average CBs like Dunta Robinson get that type of money (he got $9.5 million a year from Atlanta this offseason).

The rumor is that the Jets offered Revis $10 million a year and that is an insult. That is Dunta Robinson money.

I do agree he loses some of his leverage with three years left on his deal, but he still should get a deal that averages him at least $12 million a year and probably should be closer to $14 million.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

And your defense of an article decrying Patriots' practices is any less absurd? If there is a shred of verified fact to this story, I would not bash it. It has certainly been true with past negotiations, but Kraft has never publicly spoken on a player and getting a deal done prior to Brady in my recollection, which makes this negotiation somewhat different. I challenge you to find something meaningful in this article, Silver's or everything written on this particular topic to date. This type of writing is no better than the National Enquirer - take some obscure fact and build on it to the absurd. It won't be libel, but it is meaningful only for shock value.

The Colts pay a few players well and hope the dregs and rookie deals are enough to carry the team. The Patriots tend not to pay anyone at the top of the game, finding mid-priced talent fitting the system unless a particular player is not readily replaceable (e.g., Wilfork, and I would bet Brady). The Pats have 3 titles from recent history, the Colts have 1. I suspect the players viewed as valuable to Belichick (defensive line more than defensive backs) are the reason the Laws and Samuels are allowed to leave rather than receiving Champ Bailey-type dollars from the Patriots. Such is the reality of a salary cap in a team sport, for better or worse.

Do agree it is a bit of a myth the Colts pay players. They have let a lot of valuable players go over the years because they refused to pay them. They pay their elite players. But so do the Pats in most cases.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

Seymour held out with two years left on his contract and the Pats gave him a bonus. The following year they gave him the highest contract.

Yes, Seymour had to hold out in order to get his contract adjusted. That's what I posted.

Then virtually no team steps up to the plate. Every team cuts and trades players when their value is less than the money they save or what another team gives up in compensation. Whether you agree or not, the Pats saw the first round pick in 2011 as more value than Seymour approaching 30. The general sentiment around the league is that they agree. Seymour still saw every penny of that contract eventhough the Raiders paid the last year.

Actually, pretty much every team "steps up to the plate" with elite players (including the Patriots with Brady, just as an example). The situation with the Patriots is that they seem to have more 'exceptions' than most teams, and that's not "stepping up" in comparison. As for what I agree with, that's really not relevant, as I was not trying to get into the nuts and bolts of the Seymour situation. He's just one of a group when it comes to this particular discussion.

First, Moss said what he said because he knows that he wants to be paid and the Patriots are going to view him as a 34 year old WR whose best years will behind him who could derail at any time and expect him to take a value deal.

Although the "why" is irrelevant in the context of the discussion, I'd love to know what else Moss told you when the two of you had your private sit down session, since he's not publicly stated what you're claiming to be his motive.

The Pats have no problem paying elite players. That is BS. Seymour was given a contract that made him the highest paid defensive players at the time. Brady got a contract that made him the third highest player in the NFL at the time. Wilfork got a contract making him the highest paid 3-4 NT in league history (well, before Haynesworth resigned himself on converting to 3-4). Moss got a deal that made him one of the highest paid WRs in the league. There are four elite players who got elite contracts from the Patriots under Belichick.

Of course the Patriots sometimes have a problem paying elite players, and they also sometimes have a problem paying them and then following through with the deals. Their words and actions have demonstrated that time and again.

Again, I have little/no problem with how the Patriots pay their players. It's a system that's clearly been a net positive. I do have a problem with the fans who have to blow smoke about that system, though, instead of just admitting to the obvious. The team made this system a point of pride during the Super Bowl years for crying out loud. The Patriots are a cold, calculating, S.O.B. of an organization when it comes to player contracts. In an era of heavy media scrutiny, that's going to lead to both good and bad.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

And your defense of an article decrying Patriots' practices is any less absurd?

Where have I attacked or defended the article itself?

If there is a shred of verified fact to this story, I would not bash it.

It's "verified" that Silver has had at least one close source to Brady in the past. He's claiming that his information was from a close source. You're still bashing.

It has certainly been true with past negotiations, but Kraft has never publicly spoken on a player and getting a deal done prior to Brady in my recollection, which makes this negotiation somewhat different.

He spoke on Wilfork's, just to point to a very recent example.

I challenge you to find something meaningful in this article, Silver's or everything written on this particular topic to date. This type of writing is no better than the National Enquirer - take some obscure fact and build on it to the absurd. It won't be libel, but it is meaningful only for shock value.

Unnamed sources are used all the time, by sleaze magazines and by the most respected media outlets in the business.

The Colts pay a few players well and hope the dregs and rookie deals are enough to carry the team. The Patriots tend not to pay anyone at the top of the game, finding mid-priced talent fitting the system unless a particular player is not readily replaceable (e.g., Wilfork, and I would bet Brady). The Pats have 3 titles from recent history, the Colts have 1. I suspect the players viewed as valuable to Belichick (defensive line more than defensive backs) are the reason the Laws and Samuels are allowed to leave rather than receiving Champ Bailey-type dollars from the Patriots. Such is the reality of a salary cap in a team sport, for better or worse.

Then, if you 'admit' to this, why the hell would you go about attacking those who say the same damned thing, just because they're in the media and not putting the same rosy gloss on it that you have?

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

Is Peyton Manning in the last year of his contract?

 

[Mangold74]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

The rate for top CBs is not $10 million a year. That was the top rate circa 2008. In 2010, above average CBs like Dunta Robinson get that type of money (he got $9.5 million a year from Atlanta this offseason).

The rumor is that the Jets offered Revis $10 million a year and that is an insult. That is Dunta Robinson money.

I do agree he loses some of his leverage with three years left on his deal, but he still should get a deal that averages him at least $12 million a year and probably should be closer to $14 million.

Agreed. In a perfect world the Jets would offer a 6 year contract starting at $12 million in 2010 that increases to $15 million in the 6th year. I would add a large roster bonus in the 3rd or 4th season when his current contract would expire. Of course the 30% rule makes this challenging.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

Is Peyton Manning in the last year of his contract?

Yes, he is.

 

[PABLITO1017]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

I can't imagine the Pats being that stubborn. He is the face of the franchise!! while the orginization has played hardball with guys like Malloy, Law, and Seymore....we're talkin about Tom Freakin Brady!! This will get worked out!!

 

[Mangold74]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

I can't imagine the Pats being that stubborn. He is the face of the franchise!! while the orginization has played hardball with guys like Malloy, Law, and Seymore....we're talkin about Tom Freakin Brady!! This will get worked out!!

I think it will get worked out, the only issue for Brady and the Pats is that since it's CBA time I doubt that Brady will sign for less then market value. I think the union would definitely not be happy if he took $5 million a year less then Peyton. I believe Brady would personally give the Pats a discount since he cares more about winning between him and Gisele have enough to do anything they want. But with the CBA issues and the owners trying to keep more money for themselves, the last thing that the union needs is a star qb leaving money on the table.

 

[TheBeers]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

I am of the camp that believes this story is a complete fabrication. I saw Silver on Jim Rome's show and he just comes of as a sleazeball d-bag... not only with this Brady story but he talked some NBA among other things and the guy is pretty much clueless. Brady has taken less money in the past so the team can spend elsewhere. I don't see why he wouldn't do it again... Brady is a smart guy, he knows the CBA is looming and is going to affect negotiations. Somehow I doubt he is really upset about any of this. His deal will get done and he will retire a Patriot.

 

[Synovia]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

The fact is that the Patriots have a history of screwing around with their top players, and/or ending up underpaying/being difficult when money becomes involved.

So does every single team in the league.

 

[Synovia]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

I think it will get worked out, the only issue for Brady and the Pats is that since it's CBA time I doubt that Brady will sign for less then market value. I think the union would definitely not be happy if he took $5 million a year less then Peyton. I believe Brady would personally give the Pats a discount since he cares more about winning between him and Gisele have enough to do anything they want. But with the CBA issues and the owners trying to keep more money for themselves, the last thing that the union needs is a star qb leaving money on the table.

Brady has never signed for below market value, so I don't see why he'd start now.

 

[A.C Vegas]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

More victims of the MBWC please save yourselves or there is no hope.

Untill i see facts to back these things up then all it is is the MBWC and the more you post of the more you feed it

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I reread the article again at the end of the day.

Everything but Brady's words are just plain rumor, as has been pointed out.

Brady's words clearly imply that whatever is going on is not a factor of external forces like the CBA: "...there's nothing anyone can solve, other than the team and myself..." So, whatever is going on is within the power of the parties involved to solve, but, for now, he doesn't "want to talk about it a whole lot..."

He also says: "Things happen, some are out of your control. You just gotta go with the flow."

Most people I know, when they say that things are out of their "control" and that they're "going with the flow," usually mean that they're not passing judgment and there's nothing dramatic in the offing, but that they are just going to wait for a while and see how things turn out.

When people say things like this, they're usually in a position of some power, but don't want to exercise it. Yet. They're usually also, but not necessarily, a little disappointed in how something is going, but don't want to jump to any conclusions.

Put that together with Kraft's statement that he wants to keep Tommy on the Pats and I think we have a look inside a negotiation that is "in process" but not yet at its end point and still at a point where things could go one way or the other.

I'm not sure there's that much news in that, as that's pretty much what you'd expect when a lot of money is at stake. This is the most important (off the field) decision Tom Brady will have made in his professional life to date and possibly the most important decision Bob Kraft will have made in the context of his ownership of the Patriots.

Everything else about Brady's time on the OC, about his participation in the OTA's, about the CBA, about how Belichick is "feeling," everything else is pure nonsense.

What I do think, beyond the above, is what I have said out here often; Brady will want to be paid what he's worth and be among the top two or three most highly paid guys in the league.

I think what's going on now is the two parties are finding out whether they can both get what they want. I'll leave it to others to try to figure out if Brady is "negotiating" in the press a bit here.

 

[BPF]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

So does every single team in the league.

At least that's what Ditka thinks: Mike Ditka an old-school loyalist who no longer exists in sports - Jeff Pearlman - SI.com

A couple of weeks ago, as I was interviewing him for a book project, Mike Ditka looked me in the eye and began to cry.

He was talking about loyalty; about football in 2010 and how nobody who plays the game and nobody who coaches the game and nobody who owns a team exercises even the slightest bit of honor. "It's all gone," he said. "Completely gone. Replaced by selfishness and greed." The two of us were sitting at a table in Ditka's eponymous Chicago steakhouse. He chugged one cup of coffee after another. His eyes -- those famously scowled eyes -- moistened and morphed into the color of cherry tomatoes. One almost wanted to give him a hug. "I will never coach again," Ditka said. "I don't want to, but I wouldn't even if I did. It's not the same game that I love."

 

[Section103]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

1.) Nothing Polian has said has been counter to that (at least, nothing that I've read on the subject)

2.) The Jets and their players are not the Colts and Peyton Manning.



Seymour
Law
Samuel
etc...

All "important to the team", etc...

The fact is that the Patriots have a history of screwing around with their top players, and/or ending up underpaying/being difficult when money becomes involved. It wasn't that long ago (2008) that Moss was reportedly getting annoyed with the free agent negotiations, for that matter, and the same happened with Wilfork, until the Patriots finally got that deal done. The Colts don't really have that sort of history with Manning. Now, you can bag on the media all you want, but that's not going to change the reality, and it's not just the media that views the Patriots in this light. It's not something that happens with every deal, but it happens often enough that it gets noticed. Hell, we've had at least one thread on an agent's angle regarding this sort of thing in the recent past:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/336962-kinda-cool-agent-alvin-keels-says-ne-toughest-negotiate.html

The griping about the "disconnect" storyline is just another example of Patriots fans getting their manties in a bunch over something that they are generally proud of, just because the media has portrayed it from a different angle than the one that Patriots fans brag about. Patriots fans love to crow about how the Patriots will only pay so much, will not let players throw off the salary system, expect top players to take a little less, etc.... But, when the media notes that and spins it as "cheap" or "difficult" or some other less than 100% flattering phraseology, the Patriots fans lose their freakin' minds.

While under other circumstances I may agree with you (cuz honestly it's behavior common to any zealous fan base in any town for any sport, not just New England), in this case, there is NO story. For all we know they will announce a deal tomorrow. Maybe it will be at the end of the season. (Although at the end of the season I WOULD call this a story if the situation was status quo.) But the fact of the matter is, there is NO evidence of a disconnect or unhappiness on the part of the team or the player. This is fiction.

Ross Tucker and Silver are both implying 'where there is smoke there is fire'… and ignoring the fact that there's no smoke either.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: SI Today on "disconnect" between Pats and Brady.

1.) Nothing Polian has said has been counter to that (at least, nothing that I've read on the subject)

2.) The Jets and their players are not the Colts and Peyton Manning.



Seymour
Law
Samuel
etc...

All "important to the team", etc...

The fact is that the Patriots have a history of screwing around with their top players, and/or ending up underpaying/being difficult when money becomes involved. It wasn't that long ago (2008) that Moss was reportedly getting annoyed with the free agent negotiations, for that matter, and the same happened with Wilfork, until the Patriots finally got that deal done. The Colts don't really have that sort of history with Manning. Now, you can bag on the media all you want, but that's not going to change the reality, and it's not just the media that views the Patriots in this light. It's not something that happens with every deal, but it happens often enough that it gets noticed. Hell, we've had at least one thread on an agent's angle regarding this sort of thing in the recent past:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/336962-kinda-cool-agent-alvin-keels-says-ne-toughest-negotiate.html

The griping about the "disconnect" storyline is just another example of Patriots fans getting their manties in a bunch over something that they are generally proud of, just because the media has portrayed it from a different angle than the one that Patriots fans brag about. Patriots fans love to crow about how the Patriots will only pay so much, will not let players throw off the salary system, expect top players to take a little less, etc.... But, when the media notes that and spins it as "cheap" or "difficult" or some other less than 100% flattering phraseology, the Patriots fans lose their freakin' minds.

Players raising the contract issue in media circles is all part of the circus. Some players prefer to keep it private. Personally I don't care. If the Patriots have an assigned value for position and performance then let them do their business. The players that deserve to get paid get paid in the end. Just because you say "underpaid" doesn't make it true. Look at the market Crazy Big Al has set for corners now. It's ridiculous. That's overpaid.

The Patriots have a history of that... and so do other organizations.