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Shutdown Corner

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mcsully, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. mcsully

    mcsully In the Starting Line-Up

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    Last night before heading to bed I was thinking about a couple of comments and discussions I've been reading around the forums about how shutdown corners aren't as important anymore..
    People use the fact that offenses use four and five wr sets to spread the ball around. This inturn negates what a shutdown corner can really do because of the different options the QB has.
    But this simply isn't true.
    In today's football there are only a few QB's that can check down and throw to an alternative receiver. Qb's always have their favorite target which they will force a ball into. A shutdown corner who blankets a top option for a QB even in a multiple set will give the pass rush more time to get to the QB and cause a greater chance of stopping that offense.


    I say this because TY LAW is out there and would LOVE to see him back in a PATS uniform. The days of him covering M.Harrison and causing Manning to look off and run for his life because the pass rush is in his face is something I miss.
     
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thank God for Brady - the only favorite receiver he has is his xm satellite radio.

    The only way Law's coming back is at a fraction of the money he wants, with a fraction of the guarantees he wants.

    Unless I'm wrong, which of course, is as likely as not.

    PFnV
     
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Mayeb Ty IS coming back...or may the draft a new shutdown corner...Tye Hill???? Rumors are they may move up for him.
     
  4. mcsully

    mcsully In the Starting Line-Up

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    I hear yea about the money but talent wise, I would like to see him back..
     
  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Two choices at the moment see to be

    1) Ty Law at about $5M a year and keep our picks or

    2) Use a 1st, top 3rd, top 4th AND 6th for Tye Hill and then pay him whatever #13 commands.

    #) we can say we don't need help at corner, and take our head and put it firmly in the sand.

    4) pick another corner at 21, and make believe we've pick a top shutdown corner.

    5) believe that there is no longer such a player a shutdown corner. After all, Gay will be as productive addition as Tye Hill or Ty Law.
     
  6. mavfan2390

    mavfan2390 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Antonio Cromartie is the guy we need to draft at 21...then we pick Kiwi, or Hodge at 52
     
  7. mcsully

    mcsully In the Starting Line-Up

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    You really that high on HILL? He is kinda short but then again so isn't our entire secondary.. Do we really need to move up that high to get him?
     
  8. mcbee

    mcbee Banned

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    Or you could wait to 21 and pick Hill, Cromartie or Marshall. You could maybe trade to the bottom of the round and pick one of those.
     
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm a Ty Hill fan converted to a Cromartie fan, myself. Hill actually likes to hit, and is faster than a minister's daughter on X. He also emphasizes how coachable he is; since he's a converted running back, it's an interesting point. After all, if he can be a collegiate star his first year at the position, he's chock full of upside.

    Cromartie likes to hit and leave an indentation. Plus, he has the hands to be a playmaker. Speed's a question, but he "plays faster" than his 40 time. You give up a couple of tenths of a second, but given his height and an elementary understanding of how that affects what constitutes "tolerable separation" (think arcs, as in ballistics,) I don't think you give up that much coverage ability.

    Or Law, if he'll come back home at an affordable rate. Or, one from column A and one from column B. That would give a Hill type room to grow coming in at nickel to start.

    Edited to say: I don't think Hill is guaranteed to be gone by 21.

    PFnV
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2006
  10. Alk

    Alk In the Starting Line-Up

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    Shutdown corners aren't as important anymore because they are dead. There is no such thing anymore. Whether it's just a matter of nobody having that kind of talent or all of the rule changes, they just don't exist. Name the top 5 corners in the NFL and none of them are true shutdown corners like Deion Sanders was in his prime.
     
  11. mcsully

    mcsully In the Starting Line-Up

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    So we can agree that a shut down corner is still in high demand today as it was 5 years ago :)
    Bringing back Law and securing that secondary should allow us to focus on other areas.. And at the same time we'll be able to get a better idea of where Samuel, HObbs and Gay really fit... Are they starters or Nickle and Dime players..
     
  12. Alk

    Alk In the Starting Line-Up

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    Yeah, I guess so. Bigfoot is also in high demand but I'll be damned if he will come out of hiding. :D
     
  13. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    re

    I thought most teams nowadays play more zone than man-to-man. Also, recent rule adjustments have made it easier for QB's and receivers. This changes have made shutdown corners less valuable.

    The real value a shutdown corner gives you is the ability to blitz and leave a corner on an island against the #1 receiver. Most teams don't do that as much nowadays.

    The key to secondary play in today's world relies on the defense's safeties.
     
  14. bucky

    bucky 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    There's absolutely no reason to think any of this year's CBs will ever be better than Samuel, who started out playing poorly, but really came on in the second half of the year and the playoffs and was pretty much a shutdown corner.
     
  15. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    PFW has an interesting take on Hill. They call him a track guy playing CB. That says a lot. It also explains why he gives up a ton of catches underneath.
     
  16. Remix 6

    Remix 6 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    hes a very good player. hes fast..ballhawk and smart. size is a factor but a lot of undersized people in nfl now. cromartie i would like more because he can still learn S since he only played so little of CB in college and hes got size and as mentioned loves to hit
     
  17. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Even if the rules have not prevented the existence of "shutdown" corners, I don't see any such sure fire guys this year.

    If and that's a big if, if Cromartie HAD three years of starting experience and the question marks about him were answerd in the affirmative and did not have a knee problem, then he WOULD be a sure thing "Shut down" corner. But he isn't; he has started ONE, 1, o-n-e, game in college and you spend millions on him? Daft !!

    I remember when Mike Haynes was about to be drafted. There was NO QUESTION in anyone's mind that here was a likely future HOF player. All's I'm saying is there are not those kind of corners in this particular year.

    Could there be such a gem. Of course its possible but name him. Tye Hill at 5 9 and 185 has flaws; you can see them, if you merely look. He has been criticized for his anti-run defense. Haynes and Law stuck their heads in there and shut down the run, No one says Tye Hill is a run force. As a matter of fact, people question his tackling form and willlingness.
     
  18. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Most scouting reports say Hill is not as good as Justin Miller, a second rounder last year, so if we got Hill, chances are he'd be the nickel or dime back for at least the first year or so.
     
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Weighing in on the "extinction" of the shutdown corner...

    It might very well be true, but the "shutdown corner" might have always been a myth. Ever since I was a kid I've heard "you just don't put him out there in man coverage..." The ideas always been that your shutdown guy did it by himself. Well, sort of. He's the guy with the best chance of making the play on the ball in man coverage, but that doesn't mean the team acquires a "shutdown corner" and abandons all concept of zones. "Oh yeah, [insert shutdown corner name here] made [star receiver] a non-factor!" Except three out of four plays, he wasn't the only guy on him, by virtue of positioning. Is the idea that everybody else plays a zone, and Shutdown Corner follows receiver X everywhere - possibly with a safety sitting on his ass and hoping receiver Y decides to also stray into his zone? I'm not a defensive guru, but it seems like the "shutdown corner" is just the guy with whom Receiver X gets shut down, and without whom Receiver X has a good day. That still happens, so in that sense we can still talk about the "shutdown corner."

    Me? I prefer to think of "QB fear" corners and "Receiver Fear" corners.

    There's the "QB fear" guy, who can be anywhere in the blink of an eye, who knows how to goad the QB into making the wrong throw, who always has an angle even when he looks out of position, and otherwise is covering his man like ESPN covers a rumor. QBs fear him because of the interception potential and the likelihood the ball will be batted away. He makes QBs stutter-step, take sacks, or make bad throws. For this reason I'll call him a Stutter Corner.

    Then there's the "Receiver Fear" guy. I'm in the minority, but I love this guy. A good one will sometimes give up the catch, but only in exchange for a vertebra or two. It's not like he plans it - he's just beat sometimes. But by God, if you beat him, you better score, because it's the only escape. I'll call this guy the Suffer Corner.

    That said, Stutter Corner and Suffer Corner don't really exist in a vacuum. Deieon Sanders is the only pure Stutter Corner I've ever seen - he flat out said he doesn't tackle. And a pure Suffer Corner doesn't exist, because if he never broke up the play or just plain made his man an unavailable target, he couldn't survive.

    Hill is more of a Stutter Corner candidate, and that's my issue with him. Not just because I prefer watching Suffer Corners, but because Hill is still just a candidate. He's raw speed, versatility, and coachability. This is why I'm surprised to see the Pats' interest in him in the first round. He has high risk, high reward written all over him, like Pats draftees of old. But that's from a Fan view, not a Belichick/Pioli/Scout view. What I do like about him is, for a little guy, he really does tackle. He even wraps up. You have to love him just for the heart. But then, you have to love Dan Klecko just for the heart. For God's sake, Jim, BB's a coach, not a cardiologist.

    Now as far as a Suffer Corner goes, I like Cromartie. The bonus regarding him is the hands (something Hill just doesn't have, and would have to develop.) Cromartie covers fine, but can't be called a "shutdown" type. The thing is, maybe nobody can. The beauty of Cromartie is if he gets a hand on a ball, as likely as not it's coming down with him. And if somebody else gets a hand on a ball, he's just plain going down.

    Cromartie's a guy you plug in to have a high likelihood of a good player. Hill's the kind of guy you draft to have a medium likelihood of a good player, and a decent shot at a great player... looking through our draft history, I like the "low risk/decent reward" choices a lot better than the "high risk/high reward" guys.

    Someone said the object is to draft stars, or preferably, superstars. I disagree. Even when the Pats turn up a superstar (Brady, Seymour,) their accomplishments are never recognized by the franchise's team-first ethic. TO could not have "blossomed" into what he is today, with the Pats. He is a great receiver that does not belong in our system.

    I'm not arguing for mediocrity, just for team excellence. It's the superstar that's becoming extinct, not the shutdown corner. High risk for a superstar versus guaranteed contributor? Hmmmmm. What would BB do...

    Of course my assessment might not match BB's, but were he given that choice straight up, I think he'd take the latter.

    With the caveat that I might, once again, be wrong.

    PFnV
     
  20. nickw308810

    nickw308810 On the Game Day Roster

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    If we are debating who is the better Corner between Hill and Cromartie, the answer is going to be Cromartie. Their speed is about the same and tackling is about equal, though Cromartie obviously can take on a little big more because of the size diffence. Height was it isn't a competition, Cromartie standing much taller. Cromartie also has great ball skills, while Hill can not catch. Cromartie was one of the Top WR coming out of Tallahassee Lincoln, but at FSU he focused on CB because he has a chance to be something special there. He is also an explosive kick returner, while Hill is not. I don't think we go CB in round 1, or that either of these guys will be there when we pick, but if we do it would have to be Cromartie. A player like this does not come around very often and the only reason we have a shot at him is because of his injury. That probably won't even push him close to 21 anyway.
     

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